Why no 351 Windsor?

[Cobra]

It was a bright day for Ford when the first V8 in 7 years rolled out the door. Even though it was slower and heavier than the 6, it was one of the most important things to happen to Ford Australia in a long time.

With the reintroduction of the V8 in 1991 with the EB's, why couldn't they bring the 351W aswell? They were used extensively in US F-Trucks and even the limited edition Cobra R in 1995, so there was no problem with supply I wouldn't have thought.

If anyone remembers the EA concept with the 351 which is at (or was when I was there) the Ford Discovery Centre in Geelong, it proves that it was very possible. It may have required a bit of R&D, but it couldn't have been any more work or costed anymore than fitting BOSS motors to BA's.

With Holden having 215kw from the Stroker Group A SS, and HSV using the same motor for many years after that, the 351W would have provided enough capacity to harness the grunt that Ford lacked all through out the 90s.

[Steffo]

The 351W most likely did not fit in the engine bay. The 302W had an 8.200" deck height, there were two 351W versions.. the normal one, 9.200" deck height, and the tall deck one (used in trucks etc) which as 9.500".

The EA GT351 concept had a 351W in it, but space and heat issues were that car's demise. Most likely they thought it would be too difficult for too little benefit to get the 351W in there (I know.. they're stupid), so that's why they didn't.

[Jase]

351W and 351C's fit easy.
Engine bays are i thin 50mm bigger than the XD/E's

Dunno why it dropped through at ford but. Wouldnt have been to hard to adress heat issues n shit??

[Walkinshaw]

Yep space is a soft cop out. Get out the tape measure and measure up an EA-L bay against anything else XR==>XF. EA bay is pretty big.

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Cobra

With Holden having 215kw from the Stroker Group A SS, and HSV using the same motor for many years after that, the 351W would have provided enough capacity to harness the grunt that Ford lacked all through out the 90s.

Stock for stock, the 5.0l windsor's where always quicker then the all noise and no go holden 5.0ls, the holden strokers where an improvement, but ford was still getting good power outputs from the windsor, around 200kw on the gt's, sprints and FBT

[Kenaz]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

Stock for stock, the 5.0l windsor's where always quicker then the all noise and no go holden 5.0ls, the holden strokers where an improvement, but ford was still getting good power outputs from the windsor, around 200kw on the gt's, sprints and FBT

True. For their time the 302 Windsors were making alright power. Usually at least equal to their Holden rivals.

[Psycho Chicken]

We got hand me down 5.0 parts as far as I understand it, I can't see us getting decent EFI 351 wheezers for family sedans when there were Mustangs and Ambulances to slot them into.

[smciner1]

351 Wheezer would have been a much better bet for the Big Gun (tm) reborn Falcon GT in 1992.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

We got hand me down 5.0 parts as far as I understand it, I can't see us getting decent EFI 351 wheezers for family sedans when there were Mustangs and Ambulances to slot them into.

Actually, during the 1990s, the 351W only went in one Mustang, the 1995 SVT Cobra R. All the rest were 302W.. and from 1996 onward, the 4.6 V8.

[Psycho Chicken]

That's exactly my point, if only one Mustang got it what hope did we have.

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

That's exactly my point, if only one Mustang got it what hope did we have.

The Quad Cam 5.4 only ever went into one Mustang too......

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by smciner1

The Quad Cam 5.4 only ever went into one Mustang too......

But don't we 'build' our's here whereas the Wheezer was all imported parts?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

But don't we 'build' our's here whereas the Wheezer was all imported parts?

We import the bottom end, and "build" the top end, using 2000 Mustang Cobra R bits. Its "built" here, but its still a totally US engine. Its an '00 Cobra R engine with a slightly different power/tq rating... 290kW 520Nm (389hp 384lb/ft) vs 287kW 522Nm (385hp 385lb/ft).

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Steffo

We import the bottom end, and "build" the top end, using 2000 Mustang Cobra R bits. Its "built" here, but its still a totally US engine. Its an '00 Cobra R engine with a slightly different power/tq rating... 290kW 520Nm (389hp 384lb/ft) vs 287kW 522Nm (385hp 385lb/ft).

Independant dynos have shown a stock 00 Cobra R to have well over 400hp at the fly. I'd beleive it too. The Cobra R being very similar to our BOSS motors has one fundamental difference, it has an extra 1000rpm to play with as it's forged and billet internals lets it rev to 6800rpm redline.

[Black XR6]

Yeah, but is it the same deal for the windsor as it is for the cleveland? The only difference between the 351 and 302 is the rods?

If so, it isnt hard to use the 302 with 351 rods.

[smciner1]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

Yeah, but is it the same deal for the windsor as it is for the cleveland? The only difference between the 351 and 302 is the rods?

If so, it isnt hard to use the 302 with 351 rods.

No, the 302 and 351 Wheezer had different deck heights.

[Jase]

Yeah block itself is different

302 can go to 347
351 can go up into the 400's

[galaxy xr8]

I think it was more to do with the economic climate/politic's in those day's.

[Barry_v]

on another topic, i wonder if the boss is going to span as long as the windsor has...

[SpoolMan]

A Bulge fixes all space problems..

[mcflux]

lol I couldn't imagine an EB coming out with a real Bulge though (no offence to EBGT owners with the bulge/scoop thing)

Would've been awesome though.

-Dave-

[Perana]

Also the Cobra R motor has MUCH bigger ports... Our BOSS motors run '03 4.6 Cobra Heads that have the smaller ports.

PS: Dont take US power ratings as gospel... ie: The '04 Mustang Cobra was rated at 287kW as well yet most are getting around that at the wheels!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Also the Cobra R motor has MUCH bigger ports... Our BOSS motors run '03 4.6 Cobra Heads that have the smaller ports.

PS: Dont take US power ratings as gospel... ie: The '04 Mustang Cobra was rated at 287kW as well yet most are getting around that at the wheels!

Actually the Boss engines use an updated version of the Cobra R heads, they are better than the ones used on the Mustang SVT. Its a pity FPV didn't also grab the Carrillo rods and forged crank and pistons and give the Boss motors a 6500rpm redline and a 6800rpm cutout that the Mustang Cobra R had, and that inlet manifold that was way bigger than the Boss version.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Actually the Boss engines use an updated version of the Cobra R heads, they are better than the ones used on the Mustang SVT. Its a pity FPV didn't also grab the Carrillo rods and forged crank and pistons and give the Boss motors a 6500rpm redline and a 6800rpm cutout that the Mustang Cobra R had, and that inlet manifold that was way bigger than the Boss version.

Maybe something for the future? Aswell as using an alloy block?

[Steffo]

Ah yes, my favourite thing of the past few years, the Cobra 4.6 DOHC s/c V8. 291kW (390hp) @ 6000rpm, 528Nm (390ftlbs) @ 3500rpm, 6500rpm redline.

Put it on the dyno... and you get between 275-290kW at the wheels.

I still can't get over the fact that FPV didn't put this engine in the GT......

*shakes head and sighs*

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Ah yes, my favourite thing of the past few years, the Cobra 4.6 DOHC s/c V8. 291kW (390hp) @ 6000rpm, 528Nm (390ftlbs) @ 3500rpm, 6500rpm redline.

Put it on the dyno... and you get between 275-290kW at the wheels.

I still can't get over the fact that FPV didn't put this engine in the GT......

*shakes head and sighs*

Three reasons why FPV doesn't have this engine:

1) it's a blown engine
2) GT weight >> Cobra weight. The 5.4 puts out similar power & torque and it's atmo. But yes, I do see where you're coming from saying the quoted figure and the real RWKW figures do differ...
3) it's a blown engine.

Seems to be a bit of a no-go zone for the factory V8s. Holden made a very bold move with the turbo VL all those years back (good on 'em!), and Ford was also pretty bold with the turbo 4.0, but I don't see the government (or scruby) smiling upon supercharged factory V8 models filling the roads. I would however pimp my sister to get a blown GT if Ford brought out a specific model! :p

-Dave-

[Gammaboy]

Is your sister cute? ;)

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by Cobra

.....the 351W would have provided enough capacity to harness the grunt that Ford lacked all through out the 90s.

For comparitivly low cost you can easily pull 200+Kw out of an EB - EF 5.0L (factory 165Kw). Ford obviously didn't think they could justify the R&D costs on an unproven product (in Australia).

Keep in mind, also, that Seton won two V8 Supercar championships with that engine in the 90s, including one in an EB.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Quasi

Keep in mind, also, that Seton won two V8 Supercar championships with that engine in the 90s, including one in an EB.

What does a $100,000 specially built 600hp race engine that is built that way (5.0, pushrod, EFI) because of a specific set of rules have to do with normal street cars? A 351W will always be more capable then a 302W because of its larger deck which enables larger bore sizes and larger strokes/rods to be used for capacities in excess of 7.0 litres. The furthest you can take a 302 is 5.7 litres.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by Steffo

What does a $100,000 specially built 600hp race engine that is built that way (5.0, pushrod, EFI) because of a specific set of rules have to do with normal street cars? A 351W will always be more capable then a 302W because of its larger deck which enables larger bore sizes and larger strokes/rods to be used for capacities in excess of 7.0 litres. The furthest you can take a 302 is 5.7 litres.

There wouldn't have been any of the teams spending $100,000 per engine in 1992/93 (unless you count staff wages).