Who is more Australian Holden or Ford?

[stang65]

I do no want this to be a Holden bashing thread but more fact related please.


It goes like this my mate and his ex went to the drags last night and she comes out with Ford aren`t even Australian as oppose to holden being Australian.

P.s should also state she is over 25 and drive a brand new subi.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by stang65

I do no want this to be a Holden bashing thread but more fact related please.


It goes like this my mate and his ex went to the drags last night and she comes out with Ford aren`t even Australian as oppose to holden being Australian.

They are both Australian Divisions of American companies. Just like Toyota Australia is a division of a Japanese Company.

In other words, they are equally un-Australian

[block58]

Yep,
Ford of Austalia is an Australian company, owned by American company Ford
Holden is an Australian company, owned by American company GM

You could ask whether the Falcon or Commodore has more Aussie sourced parts, in which case I think I have read the Falcon does, making it a more "Australian" car.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by block58

Yep,
Ford of Austalia is an Australian company, owned by American company Ford
Holden is an Australian company, owned by American company GM

Isn't Ford Australia owned by Ford Canada?

quote wikipedia

Ford Australia is the Australian subsidiary of Ford Motor Company and was founded in Geelong, Victoria in 1925 as an outpost of Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. At that time, Ford Canada was a separate company from Ford USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mo...y_of_Australia

[JC]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

Isn't Ford Australia owned by Ford Canada?

quote wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mo...y_of_Australia

wikipedia - the source of all truth!

Perhaps..."At that time....." but not now.

[Luke Plaizier]

Well, depends on your measure.

(1) % Australian vs foreign employees
(2) % of development dollars from local revenue vs foreign funding
(3) % of local content in locally assembled products
(4) % of local design of locally assembled products
(5) Origination and ownership of the name.


1 to 4 are a matter of rolling percentages and are where you need to be clued up in order to engage in a pub-brawl conversation.

As for (5), Holden can claim the origination bit as Australian, but not the ownership.....


Lukeyson

[ThaFlash]

holden by a country mile

[stang65]

Why? Just interested in why you say that? (seriously would like to know the reasoning).

[ThaFlash]

Originally Posted by stang65

Why? Just interested in why you say that? (seriously would like to know the reasoning).

no one will play down holden being the first aussie built car, this is a die hard fact.

their logo (unique), hsv, and ofcourse legends like peter brock, craig lowndes and skaifey all claimed by the holden faithfull, the media's love affair with holden and perhaps ford's lack of marketing or advertising at some point over the journey.

that is ofcourse only my view of why holden is more aussie, however on the flip side, ford would have to be the most well known motor company in the world and needs little introduction.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

no one will play down holden being the first aussie built car, this is a die hard fact

but some toyota's are aussie built cars aren't they. certainly some mitsubishi's were, and yet no one ever called them australian

apart from being behind the times, the 48-215 was a '46 chev with shortened guards and was powered by a '42 oldsmobile engine that sat around unwanted in their warehouse for years. holden thought, no one else wants it, lets bring it to australia - the sheep will love it; and they did

neither company is australian - which one is more is more so, is almost irrelevant, because the increments that indicate which one is in front are so small that the average earthling would have no idea at all

[JC]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

but some toyota's are aussie built cars aren't they. certainly some mitsubishi's were, and yet no one ever called them australian

apart from being behind the times, the 48-215 was a '46 chev with shortened guards and was powered by a '42 oldsmobile engine that sat around unwanted in their warehouse for years. holden thought, no one else wants it, lets bring it to australia - the sheep will love it; and they did

neither company is australian - which one is more is more so, is almost irrelevant, because the increments that indicate which one is in front are so small that the average earthling would have no idea at all

The Magna and the Camry are Australian built, but I would not call them Australian cars because their parent companies are Japanese. See how defining the criteria affects what is Australian and what isn't?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

but some toyota's are aussie built cars aren't they. certainly some mitsubishi's were, and yet no one ever called them australian

apart from being behind the times, the 48-215 was a '46 chev with shortened guards and was powered by a '42 oldsmobile engine that sat around unwanted in their warehouse for years. holden thought, no one else wants it, lets bring it to australia - the sheep will love it; and they did

neither company is australian - which one is more is more so, is almost irrelevant, because the increments that indicate which one is in front are so small that the average earthling would have no idea at all

The 48-215 has not got a chassis like the big 46 Chev and Holden was one of the most advanced cars at the time and the motor is not a Oldsmobile at all the Vauxhall engine and body is more similar like but not the same.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by castellan

The 48-215 has not got a chassis like the big 46 Chev

obviously if it was a shortened (in my words) 46 chev, it could not have shared the exact same chassis. in my words though, my xb is not australian. no matter what anyone tries to tell me, it is still a cross between a torino and mustang. the basic shape of the 48-215 was already there - maybe as a vauxhall, but most definately as a chev. therefore in my view it is not australian

Originally Posted by castellan

and Holden was one of the most advanced cars at the time

from what i have heard about them from people who drove them when they were younger, they were pieces of crap. the only reason people bought them was everything else was imported. 1948 was the last year of clam shell guards, yet holden thought australians are behind the times, we will supply them for the next 9 years. they won't know the difference - and they didn't

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

no one will play down holden being the first aussie built car, this is a die hard fact.

their logo (unique), hsv, and ofcourse legends like peter brock, craig lowndes and skaifey all claimed by the holden faithfull, the media's love affair with holden and perhaps ford's lack of marketing or advertising at some point over the journey.

that is ofcourse only my view of why holden is more aussie, however on the flip side, ford would have to be the most well known motor company in the world and needs little introduction.

The first Australian designed and built car was the Tarrant in 1897.

The lion logo has been on several marques including Ford over the years. My XF has 3 lions on it.

Peter Brock drove many cars. His first championship win was in a Ford as were his second and third series placements in 1989 & 1990.There is even a Brock Falcon.

Mark Skaife started racing (and winning) in a Ford Laser and was one of the drivers of the Nissan Skyline R32 that won Bathurst and arguably caused the destruction of production racing and the creation of World Championship Wrestling on wheels, I mean, V8Supercars.

About half of Craig Lowndes wins and places have been in Fords including his first ever championship win.

It is rather hard to have a view of anything with blinkers on and both eyes shut.....

[gtxb67]

my take on things is that

ford are a company that makes cars
general motors are not - they are a company that own other companys that make cars
that may be a very generalised view, but to me it is accurate

when henry ford expanded his company, he took it to other countries, and of course with "ford" being the company name - each new entity within a new country was called ford
general motors on the other hand, went out an bought under achieving companies such as chevrolet and the like. because chevrolet was the company that made cars, they kept their name. it became a master stroke in reality because america, the uk, australia etc. all had their own perceived car even though they were all american owned


i assume that when general motors came out to australia and took over an australian company, general motors were the ones to create/import the tooling and everything else needed to start building pos' in 1948. if that is the case, then holden is not australian and never has been. it is just an australian branch of an american company

[TC200six]

If Holden claim their origination is Australian, you could argue that's even wrong too because the "Holden" name came from James Alexander Holden who founded a saddle maker shop (which eventually evolved into a coach building business) was a British migrant.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Laser '81

If Holden claim their origination is Australian, you could argue that's even wrong too because the "Holden" name came from James Alexander Holden who founded a saddle maker shop (which eventually evolved into a coach building business) was a British migrant.

That means none of us can call ourselves "Australian" in that case since the continent of Australia was founded by the British.

The timeline JG34JA posted puts things into perspective. From 1984 up until now as far as content goes the Falcon is definitely more Australian.

From a heritage standpoint I still think Holden has more Australian history. If you asked someone when Holden was established most would say 1948 when the FX was released. While it is true the first production Holden was made in 1948 its history stretches far back before the invention of the car, and even before Henry Ford was even born.

Think of Suzuki. The first thing that comes for most people when they think of Suzuki is bikes, and cars when infact they started life as a loom works factory in Hamamatsu, Japan in the early 1900s.

Anyway I've never come across anyone in person who knows of Holden's history pre-1948. The most knowledgeable are typically internet users.

One problem I've always seen Ford has had to overcome is no matter how much local content their cars have the general notion is they are indeed American. Pretty much like Toyota. Toyota could make a car that's 100% Australian, but the fact the rest of the world see them as a Japanese manufacturer. It's difficult to to make people think otherwise.

Holden on the other hand has always had that "Australian pride" type of image instead of being invaders from another country like Ford, and Toyota. I don't agree with that btw. It's just a general consensus I've noticed over the years.

[phillyc]

Ford Motor Co Australia have been producing vehicles in Australia since 1925. Originally from fully imported kits, then gradually increased the local content. There has been several Falcon generations which were wholly Australian designed.

Ford Aus have been building cars in Australia for about 25 years longer than GMHolden have.

http://et-ee.facebook.com/topic.php?...170&topic=3544

GM Holden has been operating as a vehicle producer since 1948. The VE Commodore was the first to designed in Australia, rather than being based off an Opel.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by phillyc

The VE Commodore was the first to designed in Australia, rather than being based off an Opel.

it could be argued it was designed in germany around 10-15 years ago. if it isn't a copy of a bm i do not know what is. even down to the mismatched guards it bears a striking resemblance to a bm

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

it could be argued it was designed in germany around 10-15 years ago. if it isn't a copy of a bm i do not know what is. even down to the mismatched guards it bears a striking resemblance to a bm

Sounds like every clubsport ever made!!

[GT0132]

Holden for sure and why I suspect that is why the Commodore outsells the Falcon by a long shot....I guess a lot of Commodore owners who also happen to be patriotic figure that if they are gonna buy an Aussie car they may as well buy Holden.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Ford Motor Co Australia have been producing vehicles in Australia since 1925.

Ford Aus have been building cars in Australia for about 25 years longer than GMHolden have.

Between 1919 and 1925 (when Ford built the Geelong plant), Holden Motor Body Builders (HMBB) was building car bodys for Ford... until 1931 when it merged with GM to become GM-H.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by AWD Chaser

Between 1919 and 1925 (when Ford built the Geelong plant), Holden Motor Body Builders (HMBB) was building car bodys for Ford... until 1931 when it merged with GM to become GM-H.

Holden never officially made Ford body's, only for private customers. Duncan and Fraser Ltd of Adelaide were the official supplier of Ford body's from 1909-1926. The first Model T's built in Geelong in 1925 used Duncan And Fraser Ltd bodys. Ford switched to a Canadian import body in 1926.

Duncan & Fraser Ltd. 1865-1927
1925 "Dalgety" Assembled Ford


The "Dalgety Wool Store, Gheringhap Street, Geelong. Photo courtesy "The History of Ford Australia".


Dalgety Wool Store Assembled Fords

As we discussed on Ford Australia's First Ford , the Gheringhap Street Wool Store in Geelong was Ford Australia's first building used to assemble cars. Although the bodies were made in Adelaide by Duncan & Fraser Ltd., they were supplied through Duncan Motors Ltd. as the Ford agents and transported by railway in a "knocked down" form to Geelong. By October 1925 the bodies were being shipped minus the upholstery and trimmed in Geelong. Although a cost saving for Ford Australia, in effect it was another measure that further hindered the Duncan's ability to recoup their tooling and body assembling costs.

Surviving registration records in South Australia indicate that only 726 "Dalgety" assembled Fords were sold in South Australia from its release on 1st July 1925 to when it was replaced by the "All Steel" bodied "Improved Ford" in April 1926.

Duncan & Fraser Ltd. did continue to build some bodies in very few numbers for Studebaker and some of their other brands, but this basically signals the end of Duncan & Fraser Limited's body building operations. The cost of French's corporate agenda was a truly sad way to end some of the most elegant and highest quality body building in Australia.
http://www.duncanandfraser.com/dalgety%20original.htm

Further adding to French’s problems, setting up the plant in Geelong came with severe restrictions. A complete factory would take about 3 years to build. So a car built from scratch could not even be considered until at least 1928 at the earliest.

The next option was to import panels and assemble a car. Ford USA and Canada were already in the throws of retooling for the “New Improved” 1926 model with all steel panels. Neither factory was anywhere near ready for production. That meant importing the old Canadian body that was totally different to anything currently being offered by the current distributors. If French implemented this option he would be guilty of adding another body variant into the Ford market. The different makers and body variants had been one of French’s strongest criticisms and one of the main reasons for setting up a manufacturing plant in Australia in the first place.

This left using a current body until the new all steel paneled body was ready to import. But from where? An interim body could not be bought from Holden’s or T.J. Richards as they were building bodies for Dodge and Chevrolet amongst many others. Buying a body from them for the Ford would be supporting the competition. Ironically the Holden plant at Woodville was the former Kilkenny site sold by Duncan & Fraser Ltd. in 1923.
http://www.duncanandfraser.com/ford%...ia%20first.htm

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by AWD Chaser

Between 1919 and 1925 (when Ford built the Geelong plant), Holden Motor Body Builders (HMBB) was building car bodys for Ford... until 1931 when it merged with GM to become GM-H.

They are actually part of the reason ford are building cars here. After a trip here Henry Ford didn't want his company name on the substandard products that the coach builders were making. The first one that was named was Holden from Adelaide among others.From then on Ford built Fords in Australia

[1TUFFUTE]

[QUOTE=phillyc]Ford Motor Co Australia have been producing vehicles in Australia since 1925. Originally from fully imported kits, then gradually increased the local content. There has been several Falcon generations which were wholly Australian designed.

Ford Aus have been building cars in Australia for about 25 years longer than GMHolden have.
this sums it up with the important stuff covered i feel...

[Dave R]

I think in terms of current products, Ford is.

Today, Ford engineer and build both Falcon and Territory here in Australia - including the motors which are also designed and built in Australia.

Holden engineer and build the Commodore, but not it's motor - which is a GM unit. They do however build it here. Holden also built the VE Commodore from the ground up to suit the US market. Holden also changed their name to GM Holden in recent years to reflect the fact that they are increasingly tied to their US parent.

Based on that information, Ford Aus is currently technically more Australian than Holden- the Falcon and Territory are all Aussie designed (except the German gearbox) and you won't find a Falcon anywhere else in the world (well, maybe NZ). I believe Ford uses a higher percentage of local parts as well. However with Holden running all these "Holden means alot to Australia" commercials, most bogans still think that Holden is true blue Aussie, forgetting that Holden have a history of mashing up Opels into Commodores, importing their V8s from Mexico, having no design input into their volume selling V6s & the first Commodore they do actually design from the ground up (motors excluded) they designed it for the US market.

Since the Holden name is endemic to Australia (and NZ) most people will see Holden as the more Australian brand. The reality is different, as far as products go atleast.

[b2tf]

Can I be blunt and say neither?

Holden brings in complete cars and motors from overseas - so does Ford (BOSS is a USA V8, Windsor was too) - probably the only point to make here is the I6 is Australian from birth.

Falcon is not Australian by birth, neither is Commodore.

Both companies do ultimately send profits overseas in one way shape or form, and both are HQ'd in the USA.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Can I be blunt and say neither?

Holden brings in complete cars and motors from overseas - so does Ford (BOSS is a USA V8, Windsor was too) - probably the only point to make here is the I6 is Australian from birth.

Falcon is not Australian by birth, neither is Commodore.

Both companies do ultimately send profits overseas in one way shape or form, and both are HQ'd in the USA.

Yes the orginal falcon was based on an American car... but that changed with the XA which was a wholly designed Australian car.
The current Falcon has no link to any other car in terms of looks.. or even the current floor pan??

Cant recall if the Kingswood was copied of an US design?
The Commodore was very much based on the Opel design and maintained that link up until a few years ago?

[SIMBAD]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Can I be blunt and say neither?

Holden brings in complete cars and motors from overseas - so does Ford (BOSS is a USA V8, Windsor was too) - probably the only point to make here is the I6 is Australian from birth.

Falcon is not Australian by birth, neither is Commodore.

Both companies do ultimately send profits overseas in one way shape or form, and both are HQ'd in the USA.

Haven't got threw the whole thread yet but what about the boss motor in the Fpv's? Aren't they assembled in Australia and built by Australian engineered bits off the American boss?
What I've always said that atleast the heart of my car is Australian.. Not like the holdens that just drip a creat motor straight on their car...

[2011G6E]

I still believe the correct answer is "neither". It would just be too hard to try and work out just how many bits and pieces of each car are truly, 100%, completely designed in Australia by Australian engineers.