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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 164
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I heard recently that regular 91 octane unleaded was to be completely phased out midyear, to be replaced with E10 (91 octane with 10% ethanol).
I contacted BP Tech Support and asked them a few questions. Firstly, they told me that what I'd heard was wrong. They then went on to explain a bit about the E10 rollout. The NSW Government is apparently very active in pushing the E10 agenda. As such, BP recently changed a number of NSW 91 octane pumps to E10 (and placarded them accordingly). According to BP, there is NO requirement for fuel companies to state the existence of ethanol in their fuels if the level is 10% or less, but BP did so anyway. (This flies in the face of what I've read on E10 labeling elsewhere). They have since removed the E10 pump labeling as there is a shortage of the fuel and supplies to those pumps aren't guaranteed. As E10 contains ethanol (rich in oxygen), you car needs to use more fuel (around 3% more) for efficient cylinder combustion. There is a trade off, cheaper E10...but more consumption. According to BP, Federal Legislation will require them to supply 10% of their total petrol output as E10. BP have made the decision to use this ethanol only in their 91 octane fuel. At the moment, little/none of this is sold in Melbourne. The long term aim for BP is to sell 91 octane fuel with an ethanol level of under 5%. As a proportion of their output is of 95 and 98 octane, the 10% E10 production target can be reached solely by mixing a small amount of ethanol in their 91 octane product. |
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#2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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The biggest "fact" about ethanol is that it's an energy-negative fuel...it uses far more energy to grow, produce, transport, and distrubute, than is contained in the end product.
This is the reason for the heavy government subsidies on E10 fuel. One day those subsidies will go, and we'll be stuck with a fuel that makes most vehicles get worse fuel economy, at a much higher price than normal unleaded. I'm still to see a valid explanation as to how making your car deliberately get worse fuel economy is "good for the environment"... ![]() |
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#3 | ||||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 164
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Quote:
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#4 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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There's also the small matter of the simply vast areas being turned over to growing crops for ethanol production, instead of feeding people. This is becomign a real problem in Mexico and several otehr areas of the world, where food prices are skyrocketing because instead of corn being used for food, it's going off to the USA and other big countries for ethanol so they can try and keep driving thier 8mpg SUV's.
I'm not really surprised that green groups have no problem starving people just to try and produce a fatally flawed, heavily subsidised, "green" fuel like ethanol. ![]() |
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#5 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 551
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Quote:
SUGARCANE derived ethanol is legitimately "energy positive". Quote:
This business of mixing it is due to the fact that technology to efficiently power motor vehicles with it and all the infrastructure needed is not yet available. The government promotes it because it is considered carbon neutral, and sustainable energy,which is questionable too at this point in time. |
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#6 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Haven't you seen all the solar power stations in QLD, no coal gets burned here.... |
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#7 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 551
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Quote:
Not trying to convey that any type of fuel is the way to go. I'm a believe it when i see kinda guy. Don't shoot me, shoot the messenger |
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#8 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
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Quote:
I dont believe this represents what govts etc are trying to achieve with ethanol, you need to compare how much energy is used in the production and transport of the fuel to the end user vs petrol and ethanol comes out on top. Even at its most inneficient it has an energy ratio of approx 1.38:1 and is predicted to end up around 2.51:1. through driviong efficencies in all areas of production. |
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#9 | ||
Boss 335
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,330
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Have Safeway/Caltex run E10 in their normal unleaded for the last 10 years? Always noticed power loss and reduced range whenever I filled up at Safeways, more so in an EL falcon.
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#10 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,580
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I got a bit of a shock when the Shell on the Hume Highway I drive past no longer has 95 unleaded but now replaced with E10 unleaded (94) .
So I'm assuming they too plan to bring in E10 and phase out the others |
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#11 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 307
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Ethanol is crap. I borrowed a mates hilux a few weeks ago and the first thing he said was don't put e10 because it will hardly even move on it, so the first time i put fuel in i wasn't thinking and put e10 in it. The car had probably 10% of the power it normally has. Luckily i didn't fill it and with a 110 litre tank i was able to add another 50 litres of normal fuel to fix it a bit. Ever since i run it on normal unleaded and no problems.
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#12 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,324
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![]() Well E10 is better then S10 you get at some BP's |
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#13 | ||
Cobblers!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The Shire, NSW
Posts: 4,489
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I've only used E10 once in my EF. It wasn't great in terms of fuel economy. I went from ~580 Ks/Tank, to 195/half. I topped it up with BP Ultimate, and forgot all about it.
Not that I have to worry about fuel in a Falcon again.
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Ego BFII Ghia Titanium Silver E53 X5 4.4i Gunmetal EF XR6. Now retired from active duty. Roses are red. Violets are blue. OS X rocks. Homage to you. |
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#14 | ||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,798
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The only thing I say to people about E10 is to do your own testing and make your own mind up.
I've tracked my fuel economy for two years and things I have found in my situation is: 95ron E1 and 91ron non E10 yield the same economy but the performance is a tad better on the E10. Ultimate yields about 30km more in economy, the car is smoother. But not worth the 12c/l really. But in an FG 95ron E10 didn't have as good economy as the 91ron fuel (up to 70k more). But the car felt less powerful on 91 then 95ron E10. But the 98 wasn't all that more beneficial then the regular 91. Different peoples situations will yield different results.
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Daniel |
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#15 | |||
BA MK2 GT
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: FOMOHO
Posts: 304
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Quote:
I did all my testing not with every fuel but did try a few out on a clevo and a boss motor with the clevo changed the timing to get the best effect with the boss it does its own working out. I found by far 98 did the best on the clevo. The Shell 100 optimax racing was a little better but they got rid of it and i didnt get a chance to tune to it. With the boss found and there were only 2 in nsw stations with the united chain that ran 100 octane. This was after shell got rid of the 100. But found the boss loved it till my mechanic told me how bad ethenol fuel is to the longevity of the car. (loves plastic to bits) everything these days has got plastic in it tanks, pumps etc so i stopped it emmediatly. went back to the 98 octane and it still loves it.
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A lot of people think i know f#@$ nothing but in actual fact i know f#@$ all! I'm collecting Landau pics Fords I've owned 80 escort panelvan, 73 Landau, 73 xa fairmont, 74 Landau, 75 Landau, 75xb falcon, 67 falcon, 80 xd falcon, 94 ed falcon, 05 mk2 GT |
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#16 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Still an awful lot of people around too who confuse the situation in, say, Brazil with here in Australia.
They say "What are you worried about, in Brazil they run cars on 100% ethanol". Yes they do...but the cars are made at the factory to run on it. Here in Oz, they weren't until recently. Take a look at the list of cars that either aren't "recommended" to use it, or which flat out can't use it...you will be surprised at how new some of the cars are that simply cannot use fuel with any ethanol in it at all. Cars like my mothers 1996 Mazda 121 and a lot of even newer cars than that will be damaged by using E10. Why should they be forced to use premium? It mightn't be an issue in other countries where what we call "Premium" is just "normal" unleaded, and thier premium is far above what we get here. |
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#17 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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Quote:
and its actually cheaper to buy petrol than ethanol now, than it was in the early years.
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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#18 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,312
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Quote:
__________________
My ride: 2007 Falcon Ute BF XR8 Orange, MTO. |
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#19 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
I did my own tests on a SY Territory and got no difference at all between standard ULP and E10. There was some slight difference when using the premium but not enough to justify the huge cost. The test was as follows: fill tank with E10 and run to as close to dry as possible. Fill with E10 for the next three tanks running as close to dry as possible and note KMs and liters on each fill. Take average of these three readings and save as E10 l/100km fill tank with ULP and run as close to dry as possible. fill tank with ULP and note KMs and liters on each fill for the next three tanks. take average and call it ULP l/100km repeat for premium. the idea of running a tank of each grade through before you start measuring ensures that the old grade of fuel is flushed through and more importantly the engine ECU has had time to adapt to the new fuel grade. .
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These so-called speed bumps are a joke. If anything, they slow you down. |
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#20 | |||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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Quote:
I think its all based on the stock non ethanol base fuel they use. The 91e10 must use pretty rubbish stuff if its only 91 after the octane boost E10 gives...hence the poor burn. Just a theory.... As for the relative merits of ethanol production from a economics/life cycle point of view its not as simple as it seems. Gov policies, varying crop stocks, production techhniques and of course fuel/oil prices all have a part to play. I don't much like the idea from an engineering standpoint but as a member of a cane sugar growing family i see the other side of it. Just as an aside i think people need to take into account changes in production technology and the fact that in australia (at present and likely into the future) ethanol is made from molasses or at very least low sugar content masecreate (spelling....basically sugar laden molasses) not from refined or even raw sugar crystals. This changes the cost efficiences substantially and in using a by product you at least partially skirt the issue of wasting valuable food production in a time when the world is already struggling to feed itself (which is a main gripe of min). Given this comparing australian or evnen brazilian ethanol production to the USA is like comparing a falcon to a fiesta. They are both fords and both cars but alot of other stuff is very different under the skin....
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#21 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: East Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 98
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I agree with vztrt.
Whilst economy may be slightly worse than 91 octane, i find the performance much similar to that of 98 octane on e10... Plus its usually 12-15cpl cheaper. |
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#22 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,041
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Quote:
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#23 | ||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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my FG XR6 runs on E10 all the time and consistantly gets 650kms for 62-64 litres .
i have put a few tanks of ultimate 98 in it . the 98 has more power definately , but zero difference in fuel economy . |
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#24 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Yep...clean and green...
![]() Or to put it in a slightly satirical (but accurate) way... ![]() ![]() |
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#25 | ||
Performance moderator
![]() Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St Clair..N.S.W
Posts: 14,875
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Turbo cars love the stuff..
Race cars are changing from Methanol to E85 as they don't have to change oil as often... The cylinders etc run much cleaner also... Why send our $$$ to sheiks .. We are sending enough $$$ overseas !!!
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Real cars are not driven by front wheels,real cars lift them!!... BABYS ARE BOTTLE FED, REAL MEN GET BLOWN. Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! Dart 330ci block turbo black pearl EBXR8 482 rwkw.. Daily driver GTE FG.. Projects http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=107711 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...8+turbo&page=4 |
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#26 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Quote:
Australia also produces our own oil by the way. It's just that we send it overseas, get it processed, and buy it back at prices set in Singapore. |
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#27 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
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Quote:
From someone in the industry you are wrong. As for your pretty picture remember oil gets refined, transported, stored etc that use energy as well, ethanol from dirt to your tank gives more bang for buck than petrol, this is a fact as I posted the exact figure earlier in the thread. |
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#28 | |||
FG XR6T trayback
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: N-W NSW
Posts: 1,308
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Quote:
As someone said " tell 'im he's dreamin'." Australia could not produce enough ethanol to replace petrol for our own use. Fact. |
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#29 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 301
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Quote:
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#30 | ||
Performance moderator
![]() Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St Clair..N.S.W
Posts: 14,875
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I don't see many farms out there with crops for food or ethanol..
This rhetoric about limiting food to produce fuel is rubbish... How much are farmers being ripped at present in the dairy industry with milk supply ?? Yea good on em if they sell their dairy and go into sugar cane/ beet etc... Besides most in the cities think food come from supermarkets... Brazil must be going hungry the 20 years LOL... Trust me if petrol run out .. There would be plenty of cars running atleast E90...
__________________
Real cars are not driven by front wheels,real cars lift them!!... BABYS ARE BOTTLE FED, REAL MEN GET BLOWN. Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! Dart 330ci block turbo black pearl EBXR8 482 rwkw.. Daily driver GTE FG.. Projects http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=107711 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...8+turbo&page=4 |
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