Guilty by association law

castellan · 06-10-2011, 09:04 PM

So what do you think about this Law some are getting done for now.
So if your mate drives off from your place or even the pub and gets picked up over the alcohol limit or you are in the car with him you will get cop a fine as well. and if old mate is speeding to with you in the car.
Or is this just another one for our country heading down the Nazi path even more so.

**Giant Cranium** · 06-10-2011, 09:07 PM

really i call bs. i cant stop my mate speeding whilst sitting in the passenger seat

2011G6E · 07-10-2011, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain awesome

really i call bs. i cant stop my mate speeding whilst sitting in the passenger seat

It's your duty to make him stop the car. Honestly.

And the law hasn't "changed"...they're just dredging up a century old law called "aiding and abetting" that they haven't really bothered much with for a while, but which they must have decided could be profitably put to good use in cases like this...it's always been around, and is still a valid law that you can be charged under. It isn't "new".

By the traffic head honcho on the TV tonight, expect to see a lot more of it. Just one of those laws that's still on the books and has always been there for thier discretionary use. As they said, they asked one magistrate about it and he wasn't aware of it, yet two of his cases that day involved someone in that very situation...being in a car driven by someone over the limit.

It's all in the interests of road safety, don'tcha know...

sudszy · 07-10-2011, 06:25 AM

I can see a good case for it when the car is doing a burn out and the passengers are leaning out the windows fist pumping into the air

gtxb67 · 07-10-2011, 06:29 AM

if it was on tt, it cannot be a media beat up

Rambunctious · 07-10-2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

if it was on tt, it cannot be a media beat up

Yep, You got it in one.

I have said it before and at the risk of repeating myself

"The media do not report the news, they create the news"

2011G6E · 07-10-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

if it was on tt, it cannot be a media beat up

I would have thought so too...until they interviewed that head copper who seriously told us they would be cracking down on motorists, and this is just another tool to let them do that better. Once he said it, it makes you pause and think twice about thier intentions...

vztrt · 07-10-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sudszy

I can see a good case for it when the car is doing a burn out and the passengers are leaning out the windows fist pumping into the air

They're were calling for help!!! Or so their excuse will be.

atec77 · 06-10-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

So what do you think about this Law some are getting done for now.
So if your mate drives off from your place or even the pub and gets picked up over the alcohol limit or you are in the car with him you will get cop a fine as well. and if old mate is speeding to with you in the car.
Or is this just another one for our country heading down the Nazi path even more so.

is there a cite ?
where is this state wise (nsw?)

Jim Goose · 06-10-2011, 09:09 PM

er... and when did the law change? what state and what section?
or are we just spreading more internet rumours? a link?

If your in a car with a L plater and your drunk.. or they are drunk then yes you cop a fine.

If your in the car and it causes an accident becuase the driver was driving dangerously and kills someone then yes to that to...

SEZ213 · 06-10-2011, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain awesome

really i call bs. i cant stop my mate speeding whilst sitting in the passenger seat

No, you can't stop your mate speeding, but you don't have to be in the vehicle while they do it...

We used to get threatened by the police as kids with 'in the company of' - so if anyone you were with was doing something illegal, etc. you would get nabbed too - even if you weren't doing it. I don't know if the law even existed - but it worked for me.

vztrt · 06-10-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sezzy

No, you can't stop your mate speeding, but you don't have to be in the vehicle while they do it...

Should one jump out while they're doing 150k's??

04redxr8 · 07-10-2011, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Should one jump out while they're doing 150k's??

You would be fined for jay walking if you did that. If the Police had turn around to get to you, then you may also be charged with resisting arrest, public nuisance, and depending on other factors, maybe even vagrancy.

GreenR · 06-10-2011, 09:12 PM

Not sure about other states but I'm pretty sure this is effective in Victoria

Geez Louise · 06-10-2011, 09:39 PM

I watched a story on this on ACA or TT or whatever show it was...Just watched it as I was passing and heard it (my story and I am sticking to it)

Basically if you know the driver is drunk and you get into the car with them then you can be done for aiding and abeiting.(I think that was the term)

Seriously, if your mate(s) value you as a friend, they would respect your advice and not drive whilst drunk and if you get in a car with them knowing that, then more fool you.

As for the speeding bit...don't know about that part as I didn't catch that part of the story.

**cs123** · 06-10-2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Just watched it as I was passing and heard it (my story and I am sticking to it)

I call BS

Geez Louise · 06-10-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

I call BS

. Me too.

I can't find the story I watched online either. Maybe it was a news story....

Jim Goose · 06-10-2011, 10:27 PM

Cant find any articles online....

In certain criminal matters like murder, hiding or assisting a criminal the law is clear and its written.

Drink driving isnt a criminal offence and its a traffic matter.
Unless the actual law is amended to say it (its clearly written in regards to supervising an L plater) then its just a load of ACA beat up.

Find the relevent section in the drink driving section of the traffic act/ road use act and see if its been changed........

The only other way is if a magistrate has set a precidence, which is another matter.

(not that i condone driving with ya drunk mate etc..)

XR Martin · 06-10-2011, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Cant find any articles online....

In certain criminal matters like murder, hiding or assisting a criminal the law is clear and its written.

Drink driving isnt a criminal offence and its a traffic matter.
Unless the actual law is amended to say it (its clearly written in regards to supervising an L plater) then its just a load of ACA beat up.

Find the relevent section in the drink driving section of the traffic act/ road use act and see if its been changed........

The only other way is if a magistrate has set a precidence, which is another matter.

(not that i condone driving with ya drunk mate etc..)

Err no
Drink driving is a crime.
If you are convicted of drink driving you do get a criminal record.
Various other traffic offences are not however.

Jim Goose · 07-10-2011, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Err no
Drink driving is a crime.
If you are convicted of drink driving you do get a criminal record.
Various other traffic offences are not however.

Oh do tell... it goes on your perminant record does it? for ever?

Not all drink driving offences are criminal offences. Its not cut and dry.
You can be found guilty of drink driving and have NO conviction recorded.

pottery beige · 07-10-2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

You can be found guilty of drink driving and have NO conviction recorded.

yes, quite possible if you're a sports star, son or daughter of a politician.....

BAXR8_Ute · 07-10-2011, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Oh do tell... it goes on your perminant record does it? for ever?

Not all drink driving offences are criminal offences. Its not cut and dry.
You can be found guilty of drink driving and have NO conviction recorded.

All drink driving offences are criminal! The traffic matters you referred to are rules not laws. They are set down in the Australian Road Rules. Drink driving, be it PCA or DUI, (yes they are very different offences but that's for another thread) are laws and in NSW set out in the Road Transport (safety and traffic management) act 1999. Just because you get no conviction recorded does not mean it's not criminal. A section 10 (again in NSW) is just another way the courts have of dealing with offenders and punishments. Which means you are convicted but no punishment. It is recorded on the police criminal history for you, so dont think it's lost and no one will know about it! You can also get a section 10 for larceny, malicious damage, or many other offences.

Bush lawyers... Gotta love them...

james22 · 07-10-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAXR8_Ute

A section 10 (again in NSW) is just another way the courts have of dealing with offenders and punishments. Which means you are convicted but no punishment. It is recorded on the police criminal history for you, so dont think it's lost and no one will know about it! You can also get a section 10 for larceny, malicious damage, or many other offences.

Bush lawyers... Gotta love them...

Hmmm,

A section 10, is a dismissal of charges. It is recorded on file (record) but there is NO conviction.

The expression “section10” refers to section 10 of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999. This section allows a Court that finds you guilty of an offence, to discharge you without recording a conviction. Because there is no conviction, there is no criminal record. Additionally, there is no loss of drivers license and no other penalty.

Bush lawyers ey.... get it right

BHDOGS · 06-10-2011, 10:48 PM

Good throw the drunk driver and his wife and kids in jail to if they drive drunk with him i have zero tolerance for it far as im concerned grab the guy who was riding by on his bike at the time aswell and give him me a slap just to let the public know ur there thats how india rolls

zdcol71 · 06-10-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

So what do you think about this Law some are getting done for now.
So if your mate drives off from your place or even the pub and gets picked up over the alcohol limit or you are in the car with him you will get cop a fine as well. and if old mate is speeding to with you in the car.
Or is this just another one for our country heading down the Nazi path even more so.

Guilty by association with Goodwins Law...

calais · 06-10-2011, 11:15 PM

I would be very inclined to fight the matter in court, if I were to be charged with an "Aiding and Abetting" offence.

For example.... how am I to be criminally negligent as to the commision of a crime such a speeding, where it can happen in a matter of seconds? for example 3 km/h over the limit is now commonly applied as "speeding". How can anyone reasonably expect a passenger to have somehow prevented that "act" from occuring. That is just one example where it is just beyond ridiculous.

As for the people who will bring up drink driving, I argue that in some cases, 0.05 is barely detectable by your average person. The "drink driver" could be solid as a rock, speaking as normal, walking fine. However a breathyliser test may say otherwise. How can the state hold someone criminally culpable for something they just couldn't have known or interpreted without specialist equipment, such as the sobriety level of another person?

I would place it upon the state to prove intent and execution of my supposed offence. What garbage they would dream up wouldn't be out of place on Judge Judy.

I also argue, that in this day and age, an otherwise uninvolved person ie; a bystander to someone apsolutely drunk trying get behind the wheel would be more likely to cop a punch to the face by an angry drunk because they meddled in someone else business. Our society today isn't one where such acts of charity or concern are necessarily welcome. I myself have been witness to such an assault in Sydney approximately one year ago. I definately made me think twice before ever intervening into the wellbeing of another bloke.

This aiding and abetting is seriously just another bs stab at our once free and easy society.

**Captain Stubing** · 06-10-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

So what do you think about this Law some are getting done for now.
So if your mate drives off from your place or even the pub and gets picked up over the alcohol limit or you are in the car with him you will get cop a fine as well. and if old mate is speeding to with you in the car.
Or is this just another one for our country heading down the Nazi path even more so.

You have to give us more specific info... what state? what Law?

The Law will have a number of elements that have to be met, such as, John Smith travelled in a vehicle driven by Michael Jones, knowing that the driver of the vehicle was full of p!ss.

fmc351 · 06-10-2011, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swanny

The Law will have a number of elements that have to be met,

More than likely if there is such a law. For instance, it might be applied if the car is involved in street racing and the passengers are cheering or 'whoo hooing', or theyre drinking while in the car etc. Clear overt signs the passenger in question is 'participating'.

Neale · 06-10-2011, 11:34 PM

I was in a car accident where I was driving & going too fast. When it went to court my mate admitted egging me on to see how fast the car would go.

But at the end of the day they said that the driver is ultimatly responsible.

I doubt that this law would be the case regarding traffic offences.

Or what would happen if a bus driver with a full load of passengers got done for speeding, would the passengers get a fine aswell.

I could see it being applicable for other offences though, under the right circumstances.

Sounds like another media beat up on a slow news day

Geez Louise · 07-10-2011, 12:05 AM

I found the story. It was on Today Tonight

To read the whole story click here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Today Tonight

It's called ‘aiding and abetting’ and the law itself is 110-years-old, but it can apply to driving offences despite few knowing the law even exists.

Traffic services commander Assistant Commissioner John Hartley warns passengers they too are under the microscope as police blitz our roads.

“I think people need to realise this: just because you're in a car with someone who is drunk and driving, it doesn't mean you're off scot-free. The fact is you may be committing an offence yourself," Hartley said.