Labor car industry policy - State & Fed - at odds!

[turbodewd]

I recently emailed the ACT govt and found out, as expected, that they generally have a 4 cylinder purchasing policy. I have seen many Hyundais and even Klugers sporting ACT govt plates.

Ok, so basically the ACT government doesnt buy Australian at all.

And yet Federal Labor gives millions in industry support to our car makers.

If the State govts bought almost exclusively Australian in the first place the need for industry assistance would be massively reduced.

I cannot comprehend this situation. Its ridiculous.

*************************************

Now some may argue that taxpayer dollars should be spent on the cheaper 4 cylinder cars. Well not buy Cruzes?! OR keep buying Falcons/Commodores and simply save money by keeping them for 3yrs/60,000km instead of the current disposal rules of 2yrs/40,000km.

Get angry and email your local Fed member and your State government. This is madness. Only the Vic and SA have explicit buy AU policies as far as I know.

[Paull]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

I cannot comprehend this situation. Its ridiculous.

What, you cannot comprehend the fact that the federal government is full of hypocrites, morons and idiots?????

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by Paull

What, you cannot comprehend the fact that the federal government is full of hypocrites, morons and idiots?????

Fed Labor aint the problem, nor is SA Labor nor Vic Liberal. ACT Labor is! And NSW Labor was.

Now just need Qld and NSW Liberal to copy their Vic counterparts.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Fed Labor aint the problem, nor is SA Labor nor Vic Liberal. ACT Labor is! And NSW Labor was.

Now just need Qld and NSW Liberal to copy their Vic counterparts.

Perhaps you should go here and read the part about political threads !!

http://www.fordforums.com.au/announcement.php?f=2&a=2

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Paull

What, you cannot comprehend the fact that the federal government is full of hypocrites, morons and idiots?????

I think you will find that the purchasing practices of governments are no different than Ford, Holden or Toyota when it comes to purchasing local. There was an article not long ago about Holdens Deveraux campaigning against Bluescopes desire for increased tariffs on steel imports. So an American company (that gets Australian tax payer assistance) was trying to bring in cheaper steel, at the expense of an Australian company that has to compete in the real world.

[Brazen]

I wouldn't tarnish all Labor state governments as I know in SA they heavily buy local Holdens.

It is a joke to see Kluger and Santa Fe government cars.

[FPV GTHO]

I'm not going to call the V6 a bad decision for Ford as a diesel for Territory but I have to wonder if fleet sales would've been stronger had they put something like a 2.2 TDCI in. Of course it likely would've been a worse car than the 2.7 to drive.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I'm not going to call the V6 a bad decision for Ford as a diesel for Territory but I have to wonder if fleet sales would've been stronger had they put something like a 2.2 TDCI in. Of course it likely would've been a worse car than the 2.7 to drive.

The 2.2L TDCI engine in the UK Mondeo is actually quite good, its a slightly bigger capacity version of the 2.0 in our TDCI Focus, but has a better Bosch injection and engine management system compared to the 2.0's Siemens crapola.

[mik]

The whole political system is geared so members in govco are always concentrating on being re elected rather than doing the right thing,
the country is in dire need of a political enma.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by mik

The whole political system is geared so members in govco are always concentrating on being re elected rather than doing the right thing,
the country is in dire need of a political enma.

it's not just politicians that are causing dramas for our car industry its all of "US" too, we are all kidding ourselves if we his the automotive industry is salvageable if we by imported stuff. its not hard, how can the manufacturers afford to make better cars and keep making cars for us if we keep buying Japanese or Korean or chinese cars
its called patriotism and being a proud Australian I think

[mik]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

it's not just politicians that are causing dramas for our car industry its all of "US" too, we are all kidding ourselves if we his the automotive industry is salvageable if we by imported stuff. its not hard, how can the manufacturers afford to make better cars and keep making cars for us if we keep buying Japanese or Korean or chinese cars
its called patriotism and being a proud Australian I think

Very true mate, just my opinion , but Australia is a different place now to what it was 30/40 years ago , the days of the digger type thinking are mostly gone sadly, I think, also the days of Australia being mostly reliant upon itself for just about everything are gone.

The lack of patriotism is dissapointing to say the least, I truly hate to think what oz will be like in 2050.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by mik

The whole political system is geared so members in govco are always concentrating on being re elected rather than doing the right thing,
the country is in dire need of a political enma.

I agree totally, but I feel it's also a major reflection of the average voter too.
The fact is the average voter doesn't give a dam about the good of the country, they are only interested in what they can get for themselves now and to hell with the future.

Politicans know that the public are like selfish children and basically bribes them for their vote. As such, elections have now become auctions, the highest bidder gets the public's vote, the country's deficits go through the roof as the country literally lives beyound its means. The average voter couldn't care less about the deficit, so long as they get their something for nothing, as they don't see it as their problem. This is why Europe is in such a mess.

The old saying "the people get the government they deserve" is so true it scares me.

[Road_Warrior]

Its less about politics and more about policy orientation. For example WA has only 30% Australian made cars in the entire fleet, but we have a Liberal government in charge here.

[flappist]

This thread is on thin ice. Keep it on topic and lay off agenda please.

[jpd80]

Not relyy political, it's more to do with bureaucrats and how they manipulate the systems to suit their own purposes.
I'm sure there are bonuses for business heads meeting budgets and expediting reductions in the costs of fleets,
so the whole intention of buying efficient local cars goes out the window with a bunch of stamp lickers making up their own rules.

[Joe5619]

I'm in 2 minds. Yes government fleets would be nice, but they buy them & sell them in 2 years & sell them for peanuts. They just KILL resale values & as a real private buyer this is a major negative against Falcon. I hope somehow Ford can keep Falcon going without the need for major government sales as I think resale values would start to improve long term.

Government fleet sales would not make much profit (you’d think) & would be all about getting volume into the plant? I’d rather they get volume by exports without making much money, so they wouldn’t stuff around with resale values locally. Exports will only hurt while the dollar is high (in terms of profit), but government fleet sales will always hurt (in terms of profit).

After all, the only reason I want Falcon around is so I can buy one (AND yes I do buy NEW Falcons). Resale value is a pain point, which I get around by holding onto a car for 6-7-8 years to make it less of a blow.

[turbodewd]

If, say, ACT government persists with its current policy, it could at least save some taxpayer dollars by buying the car and holding it for 8 years. I mean a Corolla should last a long time without the need to sell it after 2.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

If, say, ACT government persists with its current policy, it could at least save some taxpayer dollars by buying the car and holding it for 8 years. I mean a Corolla should last a long time without the need to sell it after 2.

From a 'green' environmental perspective, you should use a car from new till it's end of life, not buying ever couple years just so you have a 'new' car.

Originally Posted by jpd80

I find it amazing and perplexing that people still see Australia's ebbing Tariffs as being collected
on behalf of the Australian car manufacturing industry, $1 billion last year and not a cracker of it to the industry.

watching Paul Keating on that abc car show*, it seems the Australian public perceive it that way and that local producers were basically milking the system, selling cars for twice their actual value.

*wide open road

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by mik

unfortunately having koreans or chinese building every thing for us does absolutely nothing for us except put manufacturing here further down the drain, the minimal cost saving you speak of running import x will still cost australia more down the track with no bugger here having a job......except to sign cheques for the government.

It does reduce jobs here, but you've got to remember - it isn't a local government responsibility, and falls on the federal government. There's no incentive for a local council or government to purchase locally.

Telstra, for example will still always use a Ford Falcon ute as a urban workhorse because nothing else fits the bill - a Navara uses up too much fuel and is too large, I could go on forever.

If the Focus Diesel performed as well as an i30 (Not just on performance, but price), it would be used instead of i30's. But that isn't the case.

Originally Posted by dddd

I agree, but lets not forget that the new workplace regulations combined with green energy and carbon tax (higher energy cost) has all made our Australian manufacturing industry far less competitive than they were just 5 years ago.
The high Australian dollar was just the icing on the cake, but it surly is the one point that will get the blame for the whole debacle

The Carbon Tax has only been in in effect since 2012. Europe has had a more stringent Emissions Trading Scheme covering more than 11,000 facilities across all EU nations,, and has been in effect since 2005.

I don't see the European Manufacturers doing badly, now do I? And they also have to update their vehicles more regularly, I believe Euro VI emissions standards are hitting there in 2014 and we're just only adopting Euro V this year for new models, and all models by 2015 (partially why we'll see new engines in the Fords and Holdens next year if anything)

Originally Posted by Joe5619

And you need to that a look at the bigger picture!! Allot of what you’re saying is ok if you are running a business (to make profit), but the government is here to provided services to Australia. You need to look at the bigger picture!!

And to provide services is a business function. You still rely on income and expenditure, and balancing the two to effectively operate. Your sale of product is considered taxes, your product are essential services, roads, etc for the people under taxation.

It's a federal government responsibility to support manufacturing operations across the country, and the SA state obviously funds a lot of it as it is local to them - however, for a small government like the ACT, there is no incentive to.

Originally Posted by jpd80

And the big picture is that we are getting deeper into debt, our deficit has grown significantly.
Everything is under the microscope and god help any department head that cannot justify expenditure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_public_debt

Sort it by debt to GDP, and we're the only particularly developed country that's near the top.
We're hardly in debt by the scheme of things, and it's only been made an agenda by government hyperbole.

It's long being understood in economic circles, the ability to pay off debt is far more important than the total amount. (Having said that, it is why America has been in the shitter for quite a while)

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Well they keep Ambulances until they hit 270,000km and decommission them, then we build them a new one.

Unless its a rural Ambulance, they tend to not rack up so many kilometers because its mainly volunteers out there driving them, I'm in the midst of pulling apart one thats 9 years old and around 200,000km on the clock to go to the auctions.

Why do they turn over their fleet vehicles so soon in comparison?

Same with cop cars, they turn them over at a fairly low mileage.

Yes I know an ambulance is expensive, but if they can keep it for so long and they get driven HARD, by many different people. Why can't they keep their other vehicles for the same amount of kilometers?

Ambulances, afaik have their own maintenance fleets for most cases? (Correct me here if I'm wrong) The ACT Government does not. Hence, it does not own its own fleet.

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Ok Lardman,

lets use the NBN in a few years to replace our teachers with cheaper Indian ones. We can pick the best Indian ones.

We can replace everything in Australia with foreign labour if you like.

We can stop buying from Qantas, Telstra, Coles, etc.

Hell, so you would let our banks be foreign-owned too?

There is no reason a government car needs to be foreign, generally speaking. If they want to save a buck, hold the AU car for longer, very simple.

Once again - falls to creative accounting and operational costs. To own a vehicle, the costs scale and maintenance is required more regularly. It's much easier to hold a vehicle to its 3-5 year warranty where the cost is drastically reduced, and hock it off.

The NBN argument is a pretty poor one - the current NBN is a matter of opportunity. Why not spend a bit more now, to have something that will last a lot longer than the 40 year lifespan of copper, and solve major telecommunications infrastructure problems? Especially since they've managed to force a million gigabits per second over 50km with a single fibre.

Long story short, Ford and Holden both haven't had competitive cars in a lot of market segments for a while. The new Commodore can compete with the Euro brands in terms of fit and finish and overall aesthetic, the Focus is quite good as well, but they need to shed the brand stigma that exists, and also lift their game with their flagship models so they can compete.

I was at a drift day yesterday doing photos, and a bloke drove up with a KPM tuned GT, that got a lot of attention - can you imagine if they actually advertised the stock car a bit more and took advantage of it? I know kids that look at the new BMW 335i and have that as a 'man I want that when I grow up', and to me, Ford and Holden simply haven't had that appeal for a while. The vehicles we know may be good here on a forum, but the general public isn't on AFF - marketing is every bit as important.

Sorry for the wall of text.

[dddd]

[
The Carbon Tax has only been in in effect since 2012. Europe has had a more stringent Emissions Trading Scheme covering more than 11,000 facilities across all EU nations,, and has been in effect since 2005.

I don't see the European Manufacturers doing badly, now do I? And they also have to update their vehicles more regularly, I believe Euro VI emissions standards are hitting there in 2014 and we're just only adopting Euro V this year for new models, and all models by 2015 (partially why we'll see new engines in the Fords and Holdens next year if anything)



I feel you may be leaving out some important details there.

1. The price on carbon in Europe is currently around the equivalent of $5.50 Australian, whereas Australian industry is copping $23.00!!!!

2. I don't believe their ETS is more stringent at all. In fact its just the opposite. I believe our carbon tax casts a far wider net.

3. You don't believe European industries are struggling?????

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Lardman

I don't see the European Manufacturers doing badly, now do I?

Yes you do, Ford is shuttering 3 plants and laying off 4000 employees at a cost of $750 Million US, PSA Peugeot-Citroen, want to lay off 11,500 and Renault 8000 and close four plants, and Opel is hanging on by the skin of it's teeth, all of this wouldn't be happening if the economic situation on the continent was rosy. It 'aint.

[Lardman]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yes you do, Ford is shuttering 3 plants and laying off 4000 employees at a cost of $750 Million US, PSA Peugeot-Citroen, want to lay off 11,500 and Renault 8000 and close four plants, and Opel is hanging on by the skin of it's teeth, all of this wouldn't be happening if the economic situation on the continent was rosy. It 'aint.

Ford are doing poorly in euro markets because of product placement, Peugeot Citroen, along with Renault have entered new partnership agreements and Opel is a poor attempt by GM to hold on in EU.

Meanwhile, you have VAG, BMW AG and Chrysler Merc posting record numbers in multiple segments.

Originally Posted by dddd

I feel you may be leaving out some important details there.

1. The price on carbon in Europe is currently around the equivalent of $5.50 Australian, whereas Australian industry is copping $23.00!!!!

2. I don't believe their ETS is more stringent at all. In fact its just the opposite. I believe our carbon tax casts a far wider net.

3. You don't believe European industries are struggling?????

We're moving to a market based equivalent to the ETS in a couple of years.
our ETS is focusing on bigger corporations and the heaviest polluters - we're also rebating the ones that are smaller and harder hit and also have green energy initiatives to rebate as well (so you can rebate your carbon tax with recycling programs, etc to go the other way).

European industries are struggling, amid poor economic management and government spending. Certain global industries, particularly automotive are doing quite well at the moment and are currently doing better than a lot of their US counterparts.

Ford and GM both needed record bailouts during the initial crisis because their primary markets were US based only - And we're seeing the same thing with assistance to Ford and Holden locally.

[Gadgetman]

Our govenments both past and current have reduced our auto industry to what it is today. As a taxpayer I am disgusted at the fact the Liberals, years ago put the plan in place to reduce import tariffs to what it is today giving imported vehicles a free kick. On the same note, they use taxpayer funds to try and prop local car makers. Sounds to me like your stabbing local manufacturers with the right hand and then mending them with the left. I am going to use my ballot as toilet paper this time round cause both parties give me the S@#ts

[jpd80]

I remain non-political on this as things said in opposition don't necessarily follow through with a change of government.

Originally, there was a pool of $6.2 billion in potential funding for the Aussie car industry
but only a fraction of that money has ben released to the local industry since the Rudd years.

I find it amazing and perplexing that people still see Australia's ebbing Tariffs as being collected
on behalf of the Australian car manufacturing industry, $1 billion last year and not a cracker of it to the industry.

So not only have successive state and federal governments not followed through with promises of support,
those same governments now pick and choose their vehicle fleets from the cheapest pile without a care
for maintaining a production base in this country, cars may as well be toasters these day for all the pollies car.
They just don't care about what is happening to our country,

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

Our govenments both past and current have reduced our auto industry to what it is today. As a taxpayer I am disgusted at the fact the Liberals, years ago put the plan in place to reduce import tariffs to what it is today giving imported vehicles a free kick. On the same note, they use taxpayer funds to try and prop local car makers. Sounds to me like your stabbing local manufacturers with the right hand and then mending them with the left. I am going to use my ballot as toilet paper this time round cause both parties give me the S@#ts

The reductions in tariffs have affected many industries and Australia's economy remains competitive. The reductions in tariffs on cars began under Labor with the Button plan. John Button. The decisions were correct.

what is not correct is State governments not buying Australian.

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

The reductions in tariffs have affected many industries and Australia's economy remains competitive. The reductions in tariffs on cars began under Labor with the Button plan. John Button. The decisions were correct.

what is not correct is State governments not buying Australian.

You're right. I should have written Labour in lieu. Yes the Button plan did start the ball rolling. However both parties did stuff all about it years after even though the effects were starting to show. Rudd and Carr toyed with the idea of freezing tariffs when Mits went "too hard" . Now when Mits packed it in, alarm bells were ringing loud and clear. Yet no one did anything. Now the horse is about to bolt again and no talk about it.

[flappist]

Something as simple as keeping all Government fleet vehicles for the full extent of the warranty as in 3 years or 100,000km or greater if that becomes the case would go a long way to protecting resale.

Also make a "government" model that was specifically configured for their purposes rather than the standard domestic offerings would also protect the private market.

The "Ford Falcon GM" could be offered in a choice of T4, I6 or ecoLPi, auto only, steel rims, basic ICC, cloth seats and no badging other than GM (and yes the pun is intentional).

It could be available in a choice of white, white, white or white so it will be easily identified and cannot be used or misused as a "private" vehicle on weekends.

At the end of their government service they will still be sold at action so as not to disadvantage "battlers" but will no longer demolish the value of a new XR6 or G6E by making 12 month old 20,000km ex Govt unit available at half price. Of course this will upset another small group who have been taking advantage of the current situation. Oh well.....

As an aside, changing the depreciation schedule for rentals to make it unviable to dump them before a similar level of usage might be a another step in the right direction.

[PG2]

It is a catch 22 with govt and local council fleets regarding when do they update their vehicles.

If they keep them for three years then the number of new car sales decreases. On the upside, the fleet vehicles are not demolishing resale values.

If they update them regularly this increases the number of new car sales. On the downside it demolishes resale values.

It’s a fine balance.

When I was selling cars, when the BA originally came out, we were offering all departments that qualified for govt pricing to buy back the car in 9 months or 15,000ks (whichever occurred first) for what they paid for it. New car sales went through the roof. The next thing you know, local churches were buying XR6s! The downside? The market was flooded with 9 month or 15,000k cars which brought down the price of them. This in turn affected the resale of traditional 40,000k cars that the public was used to buying.

Another downside? The XR6 became common. It went from a very desirable car in the EL and AU to a common everyday car that everyone has now. When the EF, EL and AU where new if the used car dept got a XR6 in it went straight up on the ramp in the most prominent part of the yard. The manager would say, "Don't anyone drive it - it's to stay on the yard!" After a while when the BA came out we as salesmen were given XR6s as company cars just to get rid of them.

In the state dept that I work in the minimum they keep the cars is for 90,000k. These are Falcons and Commodores and it is a large fleet. It used to be 40,000k so essentially they are buying half of the cars that they used to. Some of the cars are replaced at 120,000ks. One of the cars in the local fleet recently was replaced at 170,000ks.

Yes, I know, I just bought a XR6 (ex-renter) second hand, 12 months old for almost half the price of new. Sorry, but I couldn't afford a new one.

[DRU842]

Tariffs are a poor way to support an industry, they are very inefficient from an admin and targeting perspective.
The appreciation of the A$ has had a larger impact, as it was not predicted.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by DRU842

Tariffs are a poor way to support an industry, they are very inefficient from an admin and targeting perspective.
The appreciation of the A$ has had a larger impact, as it was not predicted.

I agree, but lets not forget that the new workplace regulations combined with green energy and carbon tax (higher energy cost) has all made our Australian manufacturing industry far less competitive than they were just 5 years ago.
The high Australian dollar was just the icing on the cake, but it surly is the one point that will get the blame for the whole debacle