Germanwings flight 4U 9525

[cheap]

As details of this crash emerge, it does seem to be either a rouge pilot or co-pilot at the controls and deliberately crashing the plane. Curiously the names of the pilot and co-pilot have not been released, which may indicate something.

We sure live in a crazy mixed up world. If the crash turns out to be a religious act of terrorism (like 9/11), then what's next, what has the airline industry learnt since 9/11?

Surely Nuclear Power Plants would be high value targets. Do we need to have anti-aircraft guns stationed everywhere or remove humans completely from the controls of planes?

Condolences to those people who have lost loved ones.

[Madaya]

Definitely not good. Pilots who do this are mass murderers.

[aussiblue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
Co-pilot suicide-murder

[Yellow_Festiva]

Sick fornicators....

I'm in the middle of finalising an overseas trip for my school kids and they are running out of carriers they request we don't fly on.

Seriously... the whole industry needs to be overhauled. It's far from the first and I feel it won't be the last.

149 innocent lives lost... what a tragedy that the thousands of family members will need to live with to their death.

[Syndrome]

Nasty. Twice in two years. After the 11/09/2001 attacks the doors to the cockpits have been strengthened to prevent unauthorised access. But how to stop pilots going on suicide missions if they lock themselves in?

[Franco Cozzo]

I'd be asking the question why are these highly decorated dudes killing themselves and everyone on their plane?

Some serious workplace issues going on obviously.

Where is Human Resources? This is their field and problem to address.

[Syndrome]

Airlines should immediately change policy/procedures. If one of the flight crew has to leave the cockpit to go to the toilet or for whatever other reason, the senior flight steward must be in the cabin with the other pilot until the first pilot returns to the cockpit.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Airlines should immediately change policy/procedures. If one of the flight crew has to leave the cockpit to go to the toilet or for whatever other reason, the senior flight steward must be in the cabin with the other pilot until the first pilot returns to the cockpit.

If there is a pre-existing rule in place they will always find a way.

What if they are both in on it?

There is no fool-proof solution. You can only hope that it isn't you on the next plane.

Bloody hell, there were a bunch of school kids on that plane...

And they can screen all they want - people will just train up on how to behave and what to say when prompted.

If they are intent on doing this they will always find a way. Every system has a weakness.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

If there is a pre-existing rule in place they will always find a way.

What if they are both in on it?

There is no fool-proof solution. You can only hope that it isn't you on the next plane.

Bloody hell, there were a bunch of school kids on that plane...

And they can screen all they want - people will just train up on how to behave and what to say when prompted.

If they are intent on doing this they will always find a way. Every system has a weakness.

Why can't the air traffic control be able to remotely take over the plane if they are recieving no reply from the cockbit and the autopilot is turned off? Surely they could freeze-out the controls and take over remotely until clear communication is established and foul play is ruled out?

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'd be asking the question why are these highly decorated dudes killing themselves and everyone on their plane?

Some serious workplace issues going on obviously.

Where is Human Resources? This is their field and problem to address.

Obviously?
Could be any number of things that triggered this.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'd be asking the question why are these highly decorated dudes killing themselves and everyone on their plane?

Some serious workplace issues going on obviously.

Where is Human Resources? This is their field and problem to address.

People can look pretty normal and flip out with it being very hard to track.

Sure there are usually signs but even "normal" people display these tendencies given the right scenario.

[aussiblue]

God complex/syndrome perhaps; those with many souls/lives in their hands attracted to playing God (or the devil).

[nstg8a]

How automated are these things?

We don't know the copilot deliberately did this yet. Black box said not one word was said from the cockpit during the 8 minutes the captain was trying to get in.

Maybe the copilot passed. Out or something?

[aussiblue]

Maybe the copilot passed. Out or something?

No; they say they can hear him breathing normally.

[aussiblue]

Also http://www.france24.com/en/

[aussiblue]

The co-pilot, now named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, was alive until the final impact, the prosecutor said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587 and having named the person they must be confident of the facts.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587 and having named the person they must be confident of the facts.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Andre...150339?fref=ts

[Fordman1]

Cue the "tin hat" crazies that believe the CIA, Mossad, MI5, or perhaps even the EU were the architects of a consipiracry to cause this tragedy.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Cue the "tin hat" crazies that believe the CIA, Mossad, MI5, or perhaps even the EU were the architects of a consipiracry to cause this tragedy.

Nah, not this time.
This clown did exactly what you would expect a suicidal pilot would do, crash it at the first opportunity.
He didnt fly around avoiding detection for 7 hours before making a soft landing on an ocean in the middle of no where and silently slipping beneath the waves.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by cheap

We sure live in a crazy mixed up world. If the crash turns out to be a religious act of terrorism (like 9/11), then what's next, what has the airline industry learnt since 9/11?

With 7 billion people on the planet you are bound to get a few crazies, all the laws in the world won't stop it they just make life more difficult for the normal people.

[MercurySilver]

how automated?
these things can pretty much fly themselves and have been able to for years

[aussiblue]

Well it seems that they have now found something at the co-pilot's home that has helped confirm their suspicions.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/what...-1227280471225

[cheap]

Many airlines have quickly changed their operational procedures. The new procedure is if a pilot/co-pilot needs to leave the cockpit then one of the flight crew must now come into the cockpit before they leave. Two people in the cockpit at all time. This makes sense and would make it a little more difficult for a wouldbe kamikaze. Interestingly this process is already policy of US airlines.

[MITCHAY]

I just don't understand how someone could do this. A plane crash is always horrible but more so especially when it is deliberate and completely avoidable.

Originally Posted by cheap

Many airlines have quickly changed their operational procedures. The new procedure is if a pilot/co-pilot needs to leave the cockpit then one of the flight crew must now come into the cockpit before they leave. Two people in the cockpit at all time. This makes sense and would make it a little more difficult for a wouldbe kamikaze. Interestingly this process is already policy of US airlines.

That's about all you can do to mitigate this issue.

The problem with the doors is they are meant to keep the bad guy out but they also can keep bad guy in/good guy out.

[blackf6]

Make pilots robocops.

[cheap]

Meanwhile back in Australia...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...27-1m99h3.html

Australian authorities are still investigating whether airlines will be required to have at least two people the cockpit at all times after the apparently deliberate Germanwings crash, even though regulators in New Zealand and Canada have swiftly changed their rules.

Minister for Infrastructure and Regional Development Warren Truss said a review of local procedures would consider information from the findings of the Germanwings investigation. Neither Qantas nor Virgin Australia have yet decided whether they will make changes that go beyond regulatory requirements.

"The current regulations do not require airlines to replace a pilot who temporarily leaves the cockpit," Mr Truss said.

Countries including New Zealand and Canada have moved quickly to ensure that two airline staff are in an aircraft's cockpit at all times. "Careful consideration needs to be made following thorough investigation to ensure that altering current procedures does not open other potential vulnerabilities. Our two major international and domestic airlines are undertaking their own safety and security risk assessments of cockpit procedures following the recent tragedy."

New Zealand's Civil Aviation Authority, which oversees Qantas' trans-Tasman arm and Air New Zealand, on Friday said it would require two crew members on the flight deck for all domestic and international flights by New Zealand-registered operators.

Before the Germanwings crash, the US Federal Aviation Administration had already required two people in the cockpit at all times, meaning if one pilot left to use the lavatory, another crew member such as a flight attendant needed to enter the flight deck and lock the door until the pilot returned.

A Qantas spokesman said the airline was considering whether changes were needed to existing safeguards and was in discussions with regulators.

Since French authorities revealed the crash was likely a deliberate act by the copilot, several airlines around the world have moved to put in place the so-called "rule of two" on the flight deck at all times.

Other carriers that have since said they will adopt the process – some of them effective immediately – include easyJet, Norwegian Air Shuttle, Icelandair, Air Canada, WestJet, Air Transat, Air Berlin and Lufthansa, the parent of Germanwings.

A Qantas spokesman said the airline was considering whether changes were needed to existing safeguards and was in discussions with regulators.

Virgin Independent Pilots Association (VIPA) president Captain John Lyons said his union of Virgin pilots supported an international review of cockpit safety procedures. "VIPA and the wider pilot community have been concerned about a pilot's ability to access the cockpit under all circumstances," he said.

Australian pilots said in the Germanwings situation, a flight attendant in the cockpit might have been able to open the door and let the captain return to the flight deck.

"The most obvious reason you would have that system is for them to open the door," said Australian and International Pilots Association president Nathan Safe.

"Even having a flight attendant there isn't going to make the system foolproof. It is an additional person that manually open the door. I can't see them having a wrestling match in the cockpit or fly the plane physically. That is getting far too creative in my view."

Other pilots agreed, saying it was unlikely a flight attendant would be able to make a distress call from the cockpit even if they were aware the descent – which in the Germanwings case wasn't so fast as to be alarming – was not in keeping with the flight plans.

However, one pilot said the mere presence of a flight attendant might make a pilot abandon plans to down the aircraft.

"Psychologically, the bloke looks across and doesn't feel like he's just killing himself," the pilot said of that scenario.

"On his own, with a locked door, it would be easier to feel removed."

[2011G6E]

Sadly one thing all these latest disasters have in common are the two words "budget airline"...there has to be a reason they're "budget" even if they're attached to a large respected airline like Lufthansa...somewhere costs have to be cut. I can't help but wonder if a co-pilot with only 100 hours in the chair of that particular type of plane and who had dropped out of training before due to mental stress would be allowed on one with "Lufthansa" on the side instead of the budget arm of the airline...

Originally Posted by cheap

Surely Nuclear Power Plants would be high value targets. Do we need to have anti-aircraft guns stationed everywhere or remove humans completely from the controls of planes?
.

First, nothing, literally nothing to worry about from an airliner and a nuclear power plant. Nothing at all, zilch. Even a small setup like Lucas Heights here in Australia has a containment vessel for the reactor so tough that a 747 at full speed wouldn't penetrate it. They're that tough it isn't funny. As for the vessels used to store/contain fuel rods and waste, for a bit of fun go to Youtube and look up the testing of those things...burning in jet fuel for hours longer than a real fire would burn, crashing trains and trucks carrying the vessels into solid barriers at ridiculous speeds...it's truly amazing how well they're made.

Remove humans? They could, right now, today. Planes can take off and land themselves already, cruising at altitude is even easier...you don't actually need anyone in the cockpit.
The main question is, would you get on board...of course you wouldn't...no one would.
As with the amazing Japanese high speed trains that are completely automated and don't actually have a driver on them, they still found they need to employ a little lady or a man in a smart outfit to sit up the front where the passengers can see them...otherwise even the tech-savvy Japanese refuse to get on board...

[MITCHAY]

Budget or the very best in the world doesn't matter at all if the one of the pilot snaps.

I'm a programmer and as good as computers can be they are only as good as the those who coded it. They are human and they are not perfect.

The computers for the most part enable pilots to make better decisions and achieve a great deal of automation but are not replacement for an actual pilot.

[GazzF6]

Very, very, sad, the only way to stop something like this,would be to have some control mechanism on the ground that could take back control remotely, would also be good for when the pilots pass out due to lack of oxygen when planes depressurise. Crazy world at the moment with all the atrocities every other day.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by cheap

We sure live in a crazy mixed up world. If the crash turns out to be a religious act of terrorism (like 9/11), then what's next, what has the airline industry learnt since 9/11?

Surely Nuclear Power Plants would be high value targets. Do we need to have anti-aircraft guns stationed everywhere or remove humans completely from the controls of planes?

You don't happen to be a Shock Jock for a Radio station do you?