Have car companies innovated themselves out of business?

[Sprintey]

Youtube channel 'How money works' takes a look at the seismic upheaval in the global car industry, and what's created all the snafus along the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWvPvzq7_Qg

[None-ya]

Had me going 'wtf' when he said corolla tho lol

[Cav]

Cars are no different to white goods now.

[swamp]

hi
IC engines diesels /petrol
Remember a common sized vehicle repair is $5000 . This is substantial for most . Leading to many vehicles being written off early in life . Dont even get me started on used parts . An engine with 200,000km is still very expensive at 3000-6000$ min used .
Turbo how many and how much 1500--2000$ each , need 2 no problem yea right !!
Direct injection ,, most are 400 minimum each per injector [remember every 100,000--150,ooo km service life

Electric car , [leaking coolant ] spares wheel motors etc = bad ,air--conditioning / battery cooling ,,repair THAT when old and leaking , how costly do u think thats gunna be

Wiring when 1x computer can have 250 wires of around 2mm diameter x 3-4 computers , broken intermittent wires are a nightmare

Yup cars are just more disposable than ever
-----------------------------------------------------------
Quality of production and extremely poor design // MANY SIMPLE DESIGNED ITEMS ARE FAILING
AIRCONDITIONING ,, makers cannot make it cheap enough as to maximise profit
Transmissions ,,, flex plate failure ,, torque convertor failure ,, valve body poor quality etc etc



When diff filler plugs are installed to low and the LSD clutches are all worn out just outta warranty . Issue is not enough oil ,,besides the clutches being undersize . No warranty for 80% customers .
If car makers cannot install a level plug correctly !!!!!

Oil pumps vane type joke ,my Ingersol Rand air rachets are ALL worn out 40years ago ,,they all used vanes ,, VANES = SHORT SERVICE LIFE
Spur Gear [modern design ] or Gerotor pumps are far better

[b0son]

Originally Posted by swamp

Remember a common sized vehicle repair is $5000 . This is substantial for most . Leading to many vehicles being written off early in life .

so wasteful. for all the subsidies/etc we pay for people to produce/buy EVs, how big an impact could we have on the environment if each new model of a particular car had to incorporate 50%+ of carried over parts. huge reduction in waste and plenty more cars remaining on the road.

[FERG_51]

I have been in the industry for 40 odd years now as a mechanic and i have never been so disillusioned about what to replace my cars with.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

I have been in the industry for 40 odd years now as a mechanic and i have never been so disillusioned about what to replace my cars with.

I respect 40 years mechanics' experience - have you got an idea of your ideal replacement? What comes closest? I've certainly felt everything sampled is a compromise on what I would ideally like.

[FERG_51]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I respect 40 years mechanics' experience - have you got an idea of your ideal replacement? What comes closest? I've certainly felt everything sampled is a compromise on what I would ideally like.

ATM my wife drives a manual LW Focus with 230,000kms, still going great and i have a PK Ranger as my work truck. Was thinking about an Escape before Ford dropped them but i didn't like the the handling compared to the Focus. Have always had Falcons and still have an FGX XR8 mainly as a sentimental keeper. Im seeing so much unreliability with the modern diesels that if i could afford one id have a Y62 Patrol for the tow wagon. Maybe a Subaru Outback to replace the Focus. And thats coming from a blue oval tragic.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

Was thinking about an Escape before Ford dropped them but i didn't like the the handling compared to the Focus.

Mazda 2 manual is a great little car. As uncomplicated as they get these days, but drives as sweet as.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

ATM my wife drives a manual LW Focus with 230,000kms, still going great and i have a PK Ranger as my work truck. Was thinking about an Escape before Ford dropped them but i didn't like the the handling compared to the Focus. Have always had Falcons and still have an FGX XR8 mainly as a sentimental keeper. Im seeing so much unreliability with the modern diesels that if i could afford one id have a Y62 Patrol for the tow wagon. Maybe a Subaru Outback to replace the Focus. And thats coming from a blue oval tragic.

Cheers Ferg 51. We tested Suby Forester & Outback, my thoughts in my thread in the 'Non Ford Rides section' - actually liked the Forester better. Both are a good choice though I notice a drop off in resale (asked prices) vs equivalent Toyota after about 5 years.

Can relate to trying something and feeling the handling wasn't up to par, vs our Ford (2007 Territory AWD). Long ago after running an indirect injected diesel for work (so no turbos and all the new emissions tech) I still found simple NA petrol was better on the wallet and offset the higher fuel use. I'd suggest looking at the Mazdas, too, as they still have the NA motors.

[Hulsty]

I'm in a similar boat, and decided to put the $$$ into maintaining my 22 year old Landcruiser, in whats important to me the newer ones are all a backwards step.

[Interceptor]

Between being legislated to produce what they are now building, and the need to force all this added on crap onto us? Yep.

The market stopped building anything they had a hope of getting me to buy roughly 15 years ago.

[swamp]

hi
Amazing how cheap a car could be made if they had manual windows plus aircon and pwr-str as the only accessories .

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by swamp

hi
Amazing how cheap a car could be made if they had manual windows plus aircon and pwr-str as the only accessories .

Gen Zs wouldn't buy them.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Gen Zs wouldn't buy them.

Dr Terry

Gen Z's we know are great with their hands and prefer mechanical cars, tough simple reliable 4x4s being the hottest item. Did you mean Millennials?

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Gen Z's we know are great with their hands and prefer mechanical cars, tough simple reliable 4x4s being the hottest item. Did you mean Millennials?

No, not really. I was referring to those just getting into cars right now.

Using this:-

• Greatest Generation (born circa 1922 to 1927)
• Silent Generation (circa 1928 to 1945)
• Baby Boomers (circa 1946 to 1964)
• Generation X (circa 1965 to 1980)
• Millennial Generation (AKA Gen Y) (circa 1981 to 1996)
• Generation Z (circa 1997 to 2012)
• Generation Alpha (circa 2013 to 2022)

I would have thought that Gen X & Y were "great with their hands", but no so much the Gen Zs.

Dr Terry

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

No, not really. I was referring to those just getting into cars right now.

Using this:-

• Greatest Generation (born circa 1922 to 1927)
• Silent Generation (circa 1928 to 1945)
• Baby Boomers (circa 1946 to 1964)
• Generation X (circa 1965 to 1980)
• Millennial Generation (AKA Gen Y) (circa 1981 to 1996)
• Generation Z (circa 1997 to 2012)
• Generation Alpha (circa 2013 to 2022)

I would have thought that Gen X & Y were "great with their hands", but no so much the Gen Zs.

Dr Terry

It's not what I'm seeing Dr Terry, the ones born circa 2000 are awesomely practical.

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by swamp

hi
Amazing how cheap a car could be made if they had manual windows plus aircon and pwr-str as the only accessories .

My kinda opinion is using that as a example.
When car companies made that kinda stuff a ' Standard ' they had to fit other C**P to add as a ' option ' . Example Biggger radio/ cassette player replaced with C.D. player then replaced with ' Bluetooth' . . . List goes on

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by swamp

hi
Amazing how cheap a car could be made if they had manual windows plus aircon and pwr-str as the only accessories .

I don't know myself but maybe 4 electric window motors are cheaper than the manual window mechanisms of older cars...more metal required for the "scissor lift" mechanism possibly...it would be interesting to know...

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I don't know myself but maybe 4 electric window motors are cheaper than the manual window mechanisms of older cars...more metal required for the "scissor lift" mechanism possibly...it would be interesting to know...

For the most part electric windows effectively remove the winder handle and replace it with an electric motor on the inside of the door.

[swamp]

hi
not all elec windows are cable lift , many are geared motors still . Then only way that electric windows became cheaper was by scale and thats only part of the reason .
Mostly its a race by car makers to the bottom of your wallet .
The big picture needs to be understood first .
Marketing has a huge influence .
eg Holden did "A" accessory so Ford followed and on & on & on & on & on

Another con job

Taking the premium model eg Toyota SR5 the ozzy branch strips out many parts that cost 5000$ removed ,, re---fitt 6000$ Then go and charge10,000$ more for the end product
Its a version of local ozzy upselling
Australians who fall for this are just DUMB

Specific to Toyota is overseas model offer a "Pro" and ""Offroad "" versions that are Full optioned targeted to end use . A far far more economical solution for the customer

[whynot]

When I was a young apprentice in the early 1908's, I was forced to listen to the old tradies whinge about all of the unwanted new fangled stuff in their cars.

Like how the GM two-speed Hydramatic (aka Powerglide) was the pinnacle of gearbox technology. Three speed, and, gasp, four speed, gearboxes where unnecessary complexity.

And then there was the scandal of 'sealed for life' ball joints and tie-rod ends in suspensions. Everyone just knew that ball joints had to be greased every 3,000 miles. And the use of sealed for life ball joints was a conspiracy by car manufactures to make you buy more front end ball joints.

Then there was the kicking and screaming when brake proportioning valves were fitted to the Kingswoods and Falcons help limit rear drum brakes from locking up. This was just a unwanted complexity as a 'good driver' just didn't need that stuff.

As for the unnecessity of power steering, try parking an XB Falcon 500 with cross-ply tyres and an unassisted steering box. It is hard work.

Or try driving in a tropical downpour on a hot summer's day in Brisbane without air conditioning. No matter how hot the windscreen demister is set, without AC, the front window completely fogs over.

Back in the mid 1980's, Wheel's magazine ran a diatribe against the introduction of unleaded petrol in Australia as it was a burden on the motorist's wallet. Lead emissions was considered a problem exclusively for large cities overseas (like LA or London). Fortunately, Wheel's lost that argument and leaded petrol has been phased out. Even today, we are still figuring out just how poisonous even small amounts of lead in the body is to long term human health.

The complexity in a modern automobile comes from a number of different areas; improving road safety (for occupants and pedestrians), reducing emissions, and vehicle diagnostics.

Sure, one can mount an argument against air cooled seats, or fancy audio systems, and the like. But a lot of complexity in the current crop of automobiles comes from safety and emissions requirements.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by whynot

But a lot of complexity in the current crop of automobiles comes from safety and emissions requirements.

this is just so true.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by whynot

When I was a young apprentice in the early 1908's,

Wow, you're doing ok to still be typing on a forum then

[prydey]

I'll have a modern car all day every day.

Some people just don't like change. It's a human trait that's always been and always will be.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by prydey

Wow, you're doing ok to still be typing on a forum then

Yup, auto correct missed that one ...

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by whynot

When I was a young apprentice in the early 1908's, I was forced to listen to the old tradies whinge about all of the unwanted new fangled stuff in their cars.

When I started in the trade in the 70's it was quite opposite what you stated, yeah you might have had the odd type that would never change their ways.

Cheers

[MITCHAY]

As I have said before, I have no desire for new cars. I'm betting on my WRX getting to 300k kms

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

As I have said before, I have no desire for new cars. I'm betting on my WRX getting to 300k kms

I’ll be in the crowd, singing “Happy mileage to you”.

[Crazy Dazz]

I tuned out after about 30 seconds, so here goes nothing...

Traditional car companies have failed to adapt their strategies to the changing nature of cars and the market.

Back in the day, segmented-marketing made sense and worked. You could sell different trim levels of the same car, with significant price jumps, and real differences between the models.
Improvements in technologies, increased production automation, and the rise in importance of safety features meant that the cars were becoming increasingly identical with only cosmetic differences between levels. This combined with increased competition at both ends of the market, meant that those old strategies didn't work.

Similarly, the old standard practice of fitting crap technology, so that you could upgrade it a few years later, was overtaken by the rapid progress of the technology.

Change costs money, and the only way to offset that is by mega-scale production. Many companies just can't keep up and stay profitable.

And for some reason, the world keeps allowing China to play their bullshit currency game, and flood the world with cheap crap. That now extends to the car market.

Plus cars have now become so stupidly political.
Never mind that cars produce 3/5's of SFA of the world's CO2, and never mind that electric cars are charged by fossil fuels anyway, no, everyone must have electric.
Because this is based entirely on sociopolitical bullshit, it's nigh on impossible for the automakers to keep up. American companies gambled big on electrics, lost a heap of money, and couldn't sell them.
Even locally, our importers don't know which way to jump.

And ultimately, the swings towards electrics has had a massive leveling effect on the market. The Chinese can't make a decent engine or gearbox, but if everything is going electric then who cares.

Lastly, there's just the incredible insane hypocrisy afflicting today's consumer:
"Ooh, my underwear must be ethical, and my coffee rain-forrest friendly, and I can't buy a Tesla because Elon waived his arm like a Nazi, but yeah I'll spend most of my money buying toxic world-destroying crap from Chinese Trillionaires.