Long Tan

[DOC]

40 years ago Aussies in vietnam fought in this conflict.

Hats of to all of the brave service men and women who were involved in this and in the vietnam war in general.

for those interested at 10pm tonight on history2 there is a re run of the film.

[Casper]

Watched it the night it premiered. Learned a few things that I didn't know and have to say that it was a hell of an eyeopener! Talk about gutsy, those guys should have been obliterated in minutes, instead they actually did far, far more damage then I (or the NVA) could have imagined. Amazing what the human spirit can do when fighting for your life.

[gozza]

Yes....its really sad that the schools don't touch on the vietnam war very much

From the history at school i didn't even know Aus played much of a part in it

Maybe i just can't rememeber but i rememeber ww1 and ww2 lessons

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by gozza

Yes....its really sad that the schools don't touch on the vietnam war very much

From the history at school i didn't even know Aus played much of a part in it

Maybe i just can't rememeber but i rememeber ww1 and ww2 lessons

How about the New Zealand Land Wars, Sudan, Boxer Rebellion, Boer War, Korea, Malayan Emergency etc etc?


http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...tlegrounds.htm

[max]

Originally Posted by gozza

Yes....its really sad that the schools don't touch on the vietnam war very much

From the history at school i didn't even know Aus played much of a part in it

Maybe i just can't rememeber but i rememeber ww1 and ww2 lessons

An amazing Omission isn't it? Crikey, the whole thing turned every teenager guys life upside down for over half a decade there in the late sixties either wondering if he was going to be up for Nasho or actually getting there to Vietnam. Both my brother and my marble came up. What a coincidence! Two in one family. My folks went white over night!

[Twisted]

Originally Posted by gozza

Yes....its really sad that the schools don't touch on the vietnam war very much

From the history at school i didn't even know Aus played much of a part in it

Maybe i just can't rememeber but i rememeber ww1 and ww2 lessons

Unfortunately most of the Army training nowadays doesnt even include much more than bare bones military history, most of which is added as side notes and trivia info by the NCO's instructing during basic training. Havent been home to see the doco yet but definately want to catch it if I can. Long Tan is one of the occasions that defined the aussie Digger, up there with Gallipoli and Kokoda.

Hats off to the Diggers :

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Twisted

Unfortunately most of the Army training nowadays doesnt even include much more than bare bones military history, most of which is added as side notes and trivia info by the NCO's instructing during basic training. Havent been home to see the doco yet but definately want to catch it if I can. Long Tan is one of the occasions that defined the aussie Digger, up there with Gallipoli and Kokoda.

Hats off to the Diggers :

Just think Brad, your APC mayhave actually been there!

[Redrum]

Actually bought a Vietnam Veterans Welfare badge during the week. Like all people that either payed the ulitmate sacrifice for their country or put their lives on the line I fully support any thing I can to assist them. I just wondered why legacy doesn't incorporate this. I am sure there is somone here that may be able to educate me.

[Twisted]

Originally Posted by Casper

Just think Brad, your APC mayhave actually been there!

Well one of them, affectionately known at "The Chief" had service records dating back to Vietnam as well as alot of scoring/marks possible caused by small arms underneath all the layers of paint on the hull. Fairly good chance it saw some action. Suprisingly, it was the oldest carrier we had but also the most reliable lol.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Twisted

Unfortunately most of the Army training nowadays doesnt even include much more than bare bones military history, most of which is added as side notes and trivia info by the NCO's instructing during basic training. Havent been home to see the doco yet but definately want to catch it if I can. Long Tan is one of the occasions that defined the aussie Digger, up there with Gallipoli and Kokoda.

Hats off to the Diggers :

I think it depends on the corps really. Yes, there's not much touched on at basic training, but the infantry will let you know about it pretty quickly.

I have the utmost respect for the diggers at Long Tan. They deserved so much more. The way the top brass came in and stole the limelight was a crock of ****. The way Harry Smith trained the company had a lot to do with them making it through.

Must watch the doco tonight, been procrastinating something chronic.

[Twisted]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I think it depends on the corps really. Yes, there's not much touched on at basic training, but the infantry will let you know about it pretty quickly.

I have the utmost respect for the diggers at Long Tan. They deserved so much more. The way the top brass came in and stole the limelight was a crock of ****. The way Harry Smith trained the company had a lot to do with them making it through.

Must watch the doco tonight, been procrastinating something chronic.

Too true Rob, the brass always steal the limelight, look at Blamey's entire overblown career for an example.

I was Signals Corps and I was actually pretty disappointed with the whole fact that the most any of us learnt about military history was when we had a quote moment on radio watch and could read a book or something.

As a side note, if anyone wants a good book to read I've just finished 'Kokoda' by Peter FitzSimons and highly recommend it.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Twisted

Too true Rob, the brass always steal the limelight, look at Blamey's entire overblown career for an example.

Oh god don't get me started on Blamey. He was too busy sucking up McArthur's **** to have a clue.

Originally Posted by JG66ME

Most people dont have a clue about Long Tan and that wasn't the only battle that the Aussies performed exceptionaly well in.

Yeah it's a shame. Binh Ba springs to mind. Perhaps the battalion has drummed that in.

[gozza]

exactly.....


I rememebr learning bout the boer a little bit

[EF, What else?]

School history is pathetic, I'm glad I was such a book worm :alien2: in my younger years, I was miles ahead of all my mates in knowledge about Australian history, which is sad, its something every Australian should know.

[ronwest]

My Battalion and Company.

I was a nasho and deployed to 12 Pl, D Coy, 6RAR a couple of years after Long Tan.

When I was in 6RAR, Bob Buick was a platoon sgt (11 pl iirc), Vic Creagh was CSM D Coy and Neil Rankin was (I think) CSM Support Coy.

At the time I was with 6RAR (early 70's) Long Tan was something those fella's took in their stride.

Probably back then the real significance was not known but whenever I come across those chaps at Battalion "do's" a tear comes to my eye for the sacrifice they and others made.

edit: I havent seen the doco but I mentioned those three blokes above as they are bound to be in it.

[Casper]

Yeh, Bob Buick was one of the centrepieces of the whole show.

[RavenLS1]

Originally Posted by DOC

40 years ago Aussies in vietnam fought in this conflict.

Hats of to all of the brave service men and women who were involved in this and in the vietnam war in general.

HERE, HERE.

[Ringo]

Maybe "the Chief" remembers that last time it broke down it was shot at....

Seriously though I am one of the fortunate few to have studied History in high school and spend a semester studying the 60's and the Vietnam conflict with a focus on Australias contribution to the war effort.

As part of our studies our brilliant teacher had a Vietnam Vet come and talk to us. He was actually in Vietnam as an Army Historian so his job was to document everything. His slide show, his discussion, his display of bits n pieces he brought in were amazing and personal in many ways. He had a bunch of 15 &16 years old teenagers in the palm of his hand that morning. He told us all the things wrong with the movies on Vietnam that we had seen recently and how it really was for soliders that would be out on patrol for days on end in silence. He disscussed Long Tan and its effect on people at the time and the strategies and techniques that the Australians used to manage the Phoc Thuy (?)province and and how it differed from the US techniques.

I have forgotten his name but not what he passed onto us including a first hand account of the moment he wondered if his time was up. I still remember it 15 years after being told -

It was a very foggy morning and he was part of a foot patrol with a platoon. The fog was so thick that you couldn't see more than 20-30 metres ahead. They were walking in a line down one edge of a dirt road, silently and spaced apart. Out of the fog shapes of men also walking the other way started to take shape. They kept walking. As they got closer they were able to see the outline and that tehse shapes were in fact 'soldiers' walking the other way. They were carrying guns. He could see the butt and muzzle of the rifle! Where they Aussie or where they ARVN?. They were not close enough able to make out faces, uniform colours or anything, just the outline of the figures approaching them through the fog.

As the other group got closer he noticed that the butt of their rifles gave away that they were holding them like Aussie are trained to do which is opposite to the ARVN. He realised that the other soliders emerging out of the fog were Aussies but of couse couldn't shout out or say anything to his group. He just had to pray that as these two patrols passed each other, they would all recognise the same thing and that no-one would start firing. The two platoons ended up passing each other without incident. He said that his platoon laughed about it back at base but at the time he thought 'thats it'

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by DOC

Hats of to all of the brave service men and women who were involved in this and in the vietnam war in general.

Here, here Doc.

And yes - the doco which premiered the other night is must see viewing. Scary as all hell - i cant imagine what it was like to be there. The thought of that rubber plantation just sends chills down the spine. True bravery.

[Mark s]

I have read several books on Long Tan and the doco the other night was amazing. The first was written by Terry Burstall who was in the battle and also the book by Lex McAulay. The doco on The History channel just added to what I had read.


For those who mentioned APC's and may have driven one used during the battle. In Burstall's book there are photos of APC's used in the battle. One of those vehicles 134186 was used during the battle and was the same carrier I learnt to drive in back in 1988.


I have to agree with Harry Smith and a few others on the awards issued. There were men who did many heroic things and never gained an ounce of reconigition. There were several high ranking officers, who were not even there during the battle itself who were awarded decorations.

What a bloody disgrace and I guess very typical of the military.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by DOC

Hats of to all of the brave service men and women who were involved in this and in the vietnam war in general.

Amen.

Originally Posted by Twisted

As a side note, if anyone wants a good book to read I've just finished 'Kokoda' by Peter FitzSimons and highly recommend it.

Yeap absolutely agree there. Apparently he's putting another book together on Vietnam.

[JG66ME]

Australia needs to wake up and teach some of this history. What ****es me is that in relation to Vietnam people always focus on the politics and not on how well the Australian Army performed.

Most people dont have a clue about Long Tan and that wasn't the only battle that the Aussies performed exceptionaly well in. In most cases its the only battle people can name. For example, how many know about the Battle of Coral? On the first night the Aussies hadent secured the area properly due to poor recon and the terrain not being what was expected. They were attacked by wave after wave of NVA. Hand to hand combat with fixed bayonets. The NVA almost captured one of the guns. This battle involved two battalions, a regiment of arty, US self propelled guns and later C Squadron 1st Armored Regment. FSB Coral and Balmoral along with other actions also need to be brought to people attention, without the politics thank you.

Also, I cannot understand what the govt of the day were thinking when it came to awards. I am sure some of these guys at Long Tan deserve VCs. This battle was on a par with Rourkes Drift in my opinion. All the VCs in Vietnam went to Special Forces.

To all our Vietnam Vetrans, thank you for what you did for our country.

Lest We Forget

Steve

PS, Bob Buick and Terry Burstal dont see eye to eye on thier accounts of the battle. Lex McAulays book is a good refrence along with Bobs book "No Guts, No Glory".

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

PS, Bob Buick and Terry Burstal dont see eye to eye on thier accounts of the battle.

There is some bad blood there for sure. Bear in mind that Burstall was there but apparently did not take part in the battle so Buick's account is probably more reliable.

Having said that, I came across an ex-SAS guy many years later who contradicted some of what they both had to say. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by ronwest

There is some bad blood there for sure. Bear in mind that Burstall was there but apparently did not take part in the battle so Buick's account is probably more reliable.

Having said that, I came across an ex-SAS guy many years later who contradicted some of what they both had to say. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

I think Buicks accout ties in to well with the radio net transcript so its hard to question what he says. I dont recal reading that any of 11 platoons survivers contrdicting him. He certainly requested the fire mission on his own grid refrence. Buick disputes that they where abushed though and does not belive that D company was ambushed at all, rather they ran into each other. You have to think, if it was an ambush you would expect it to have been a total disaster, like Delta Coy being wiped out, or at least 11 platoon.

Never having been in combat its hard to imagine what the "fog of war" would be like.

Steve

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

Buick disputes that they where abushed though and does not belive that D company was ambushed at all, rather they ran into each other.
Steve

That's the main area of contention between them as far as the recounting of history is concerned.

There are other issues but this is the Long Tan thread and getting a bit OT ;)

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by ronwest

Having said that, I came across an ex-SAS guy many years later who contradicted some of what they both had to say. I have no reason to disbelieve him.

No offence to him, but how the hell would the SAS know? They were at least 7km to the north.

There's no way Delta Coy was ambushed. If it was an ambush no one would of made it out of there. More to the point, why the hell would you set up an ambush well within Australian/NZ arty range?

Personally I believe it was a force sent to attack the base at Nui Dat, and the mortar/rocket attacks on the night of the 17th were a day early.

[WILDTRAKPX2]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

No offence to him, but how the hell would the SAS know? They were at least 7km to the north.

There's no way Delta Coy was ambushed. If it was an ambush no one would of made it out of there. More to the point, why the hell would you set up an ambush well within Australian/NZ arty range?

Personally I believe it was a force sent to attack the base at Nui Dat, and the mortar/rocket attacks on the night of the 17th were a day early.

Agree 100%.

If anyone hasn't seen the show that was on the History channel, make sure you do. It's an excellent account of what happened and very moving.

On a side note, Colonel Colin Townsend lived here in Gympie (since 1980) and sadly died in June.
Many locals didn’t know he was a distinguished military leader and an Australian hero. RIP Colin.
http://www.gympietimes.com.au/localn...&thesubsection=

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

No offence to him, but how the hell would the SAS know? They were at least 7km to the north.

Well, no offense to you either but with regard to Long Tan he knows enough to comment. I didn't make my statement solely on the basis of "I once met a guy who told me xyz"

However, I have no intention of turning this into a "did/didn't" debate.

I've said what I said in good faith you can choose to believe it or not.

[Racecraft]

The battle of Long Tan definately hinted toward the disregard the VC had for their own soldiers :(

[Casper]

If it was an ambush they would have been overrun in the first 2 minutes with no one left to explain why.