Howard cons motorists on fuel prices. (GOOD READ)

[CruizinEB]

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

I mean didn't the Fed. Gov. just record a $19 billion dollar surplus just now. With no new road works, which is by the way where most of this is supposed to go, of course the government can look like its doing great by the voting public, lol which with the speculation now of tax cuts after this surplus doesnt make me wonder if their isnt an election coming up soon. It would certainly be a great platform for Costello ' the man that gave you an extra $5 in your pay packet only to take $50 at the bowser '

First off, the federal government is not responsible for roads in your state, with the exception of the national N1 Highways. The majority of the people complaining about heath care, roads, revenue raising etc, should really direct their anger towards their respective state governments - who will probably try and blame the federal government for their budget blowouts and poor budgeting.

Second off, the Government isn't really taking that much more in tax at the bowser than what they have been doing before - the current rise in petrol has been due to a number of market factors affected the supply situation of crude oil - between the middle east's usual stability issues and hurricane Katrina. True however that the government excise is a percentage, but this has not been indexed for quite a period of time.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

Lol, that's academic misconduct sunshine!!

*4.9 EF resists urge to add political commentary*

However, it should be noted the only "windfall" the government receives is from the GST charged on fuel. You'll have to ask your state government how much of that is spent on roads. The excise is fixed and as noted dave_au, has not been indexed for some time.

[XRQTR]

You know I just realised where i had seen you before Dave, you're Peter Costellos chief advisor aren't you. _2:

Mate, I don't care which government takes my money either way they never do what is supposed to be done with it, indexed?? as a percentage every time the price increases so does their take and you obviously forgot the GS fu@#!ng T same again.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

The ideology that your trying to put forward (and to be honest - it's not a bad ideology -if it worked in practice like in theory) is if Australia mined enough crude oil for our own demands (which we don't - I don't know where you got 3% from), then what you are suggesting is that we should have a closed market economy on the mining and refining of crude oil in this country - in a right wing view, isolationalist, in a left wing view, Socialist/Communist.

If we did this, we would then have to amortise further expenses that we incurred in the mining and manufacturing - depending on our efficiencies of scale, which is likely to push the prices up, which may have otherwise been absorbed by exports or absorbtion into the regional costs of oil supply.

Then, on top of that, you say that we import 3% of our crude oil to meet demands (although its a lot more than this). Given the price of the product in this market is pushed by demand, the result will be higher prices.

Additionally on the suppliers side, it is the right of the supplier to sell a generic stock in such a high demand market at the global market price - I believe the prices in our region are set by the singapore terminal prices.

What would be the advantage of oil companies to invest, create jobs and pay taxes in Australia, but then sell stock at a discount to real world demands. It would be like Ford taking 20% of the value of a GTP just because you live in Victoria.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

obviously forgot the GS fu@#!ng T same again.

Haha, yeah, well the GST was supposed to replace some state taxes - obviously that didn't really evolve that much did it - yet another issue for your state member. :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

The ideology that your trying to put forward (and to be honest - it's not a bad ideology -if it worked in practice like in theory) is if Australia mined enough crude oil for our own demands (which we don't - I don't know where you got 3% from), then what you are suggesting is that we should have a closed market economy on the mining and refining of crude oil in this country - in a right wing view, isolationalist, in a left wing view, Socialist/Communist.

If we did this, we would then have to amortise further expenses that we incurred in the mining and manufacturing - depending on our efficiencies of scale, which is likely to push the prices up, which may have otherwise been absorbed by exports or absorbtion into the regional costs of oil supply.

Then, on top of that, you say that we import 3% of our crude oil to meet demands (although its a lot more than this). Given the price of the product in this market is pushed by demand, the result will be higher prices.

Additionally on the suppliers side, it is the right of the supplier to sell a generic stock in such a high demand market at the global market price - I believe the prices in our region are set by the singapore terminal prices.

What would be the advantage of oil companies to invest, create jobs and pay taxes in Australia, but then sell stock at a discount to real world demands. It would be like Ford taking 20% of the value of a GTP just because you live in Victoria.

Champagne post Dave. Good to see there's members out there who understand a topic they are discussing and dont simply shoot off the hip with attacks on people they obviously have some sort of vendetta gainst.

On the topic of importing/exporting - its worth noting that the global price of light sweet crude is indeed a consideration, particularly when we are required to import this material to meet our demands. But its also worth pointing out that our refining capacity does not meet domestic demand. Therefore, as opposed to crude oil being the key price determinant - the more significant impact comes from the global price of refined petrol. In Australia the relevant index comes from the singapore market (which basically reflects global value of the refined product). The extent to which crude impacts on this is the cost of this key input into the product.

And if you are refining in Australia, are you going to sell to the global market at the going global rate? Or sell it for 20c/L cheaper to the locals? And once you run out of that - would you expect the global market (who you basically told to shove it up their jumper) to then sell to you at a fair rate?

Hurricane Katrina was an excellent example of the impact of refining margins on pump price. Global supply was impacted. We need know only the concepts of basic economics to realise that a reduced supply with a static demand will result in significant price increases as the market finds its equilibrium.

The margins being made by refineries increased about 5 fold and would have been much higher had the input cost of crude not been around $70us/bbl.

[ED Classic]

True there is a GST on top of the Tax that shouldnt be there. Also true that it gets passed on to each State and the State governments are NOT in a hurry to give it back in a direct way because it leaves alot of blame on the Federal Liberal party. The Federal government should abolish it because they make very little from it and it does them no favours except makes them look more genorous..big politics

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by jabba

By the way. We are the only country in the world that diesel is more exspensive then petrol...

Go figure

Actually, this is not the case nowadays, take the UK for example -

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/car/petrol-prices.php
average 87.6p

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/car/diesel-prices.php
average 92.8p

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

it wasn't a copy and past i put it together form 3 book i have been reading

Your a popular person

Seems Raven found it an intersting enough article to copy it onto fordforums.com without credit to you..

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by 42.57lb

Forgive my ignorance: Buuuut, is Diesel not a by-product of producing petrol? If so then why is it more expensive per litre than petrol?

Not really. When you heat crude oil to a certain temp it becomes something else. It becomes petrol at one temp, diesel at another. There's a whole heap of things that are made from it.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

There's a whole heap of things that are made from it.

I make horsepower out of mine. But what I really want is a windchime.

[FordFan86]

IF Australia were to refine it's own oil we would be paying a damn sight less for fuel than what we do. However, most of our oil is sold to Singapore. They refine it for us and we buy it back at internationally set prices. It is sold cheap, Singapore makes profit on buying the raw product. We buy it back, we (little johnny) make profit on end product (as compared to say having to re-open Port Stanvac and building more Australian refineries to refine the stuff, employees, insurance etc etc.)
Most of it is about the profit made, look at it this way.
Australian oil > Australian refinery + storage > Australian motorists.
That would be ideal to us as the consumer as it would keep the price down. It is more like this tho.
Australian oil > Sold to singapore + shipping, tax etc > Singapore refinery + storage > Brought back with rebate, Singapore government makes money on tax, shipping etc > Australian storage > Australian consumer.
Now, if you were John Howard. Which option would you choose as to make more money? Labour is dirt cheap Asia, why employ thousands of Australians to do the job of refining when he can send it overseas and buy it back, still coming out waaay infront.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

Thailand............37.......... 54

I was in Thailand in May when fuel was around $1 AUD. Thai Caltex was around 22 Baht per litre. 30baht = 1 AUD. Works out to about 75 cents a litre. With the price of crude up higher, I would imgaine they are paying closer to 1 AUD.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by FordFan86

Australian oil > Australian refinery + storage > Australian motorists.
That would be ideal to us as the consumer as it would keep the price down. .

Works extremely well for the capacity we have domestically. What about the 30% we NEED to import?

After we take our bat and ball and go home... I dont think anyone is going to wanna play with us when we go back to buy the capcity we were unable to produce ourselves....

[cArSiK]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

it wasn't a copy and past i put it together form 3 book i have been reading

Originally Posted by ArgonEF

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Othe...ts-ThomasA.htm

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

Hahahahahaha OWNED!!!! :hihi:

[Paul_au]

Watch the movie doco "the end of suburbia".
Useable Oil aint here for much longer.
Secondly, even if there was no shortage, all developed countries always end up increasing oil prices. Places like China wont. I know where I would rather be. We are no longer classed as a struggling country. Our prices will increase accordingly.

I cant beleive people actually complain when we know it WILL run out. We are WASTING it. Conserve when we can within reason. IT WILL END! There is NO way it wont. WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF OIL. Even if we were not running out like they say now - we WILL run out. WE ARE STUPID (most). Any way that conserves some oil is great. We need a LOT longer before we can even think about alternate energy usage apart from nuclear.. And sadly I think we will all go nuke because of this in a SHORT time.

Watch the doco too, it is good to know about it all whether you beleive it or not. We will run out soon, so why complain? I mean we are using more and more oil every year - does anyone really think we are not running out???? Come on! Who cares if it is in 5 years or 15... It is NOT renuable so conserve and if high prices do that then it is GOOD for all of us!

I dont think most realise how bad it really is at the current rate of consumption. Sure higher prices make it hard for industry and business and the economy. Maybe a small (or high) price to pay.

Nukes to come unfortunately and anyone who thinks otherwise or thinks fuel is TOO DEAR are a major reason why it will end sooner and get dearer than it needs to. have a think about it.

mark my words and come back and tell me if I was wrong ----> within 10 years almost no one will be able to run a car on the road with fuel (oil) due to the lack of oil available for usage. There will always be oil but the rate it can be extracted and the quality will not be worthwhile (as is happening now)... Most likely be in huts with no power besides Nuke. Most likely be no oil for veges. Almost everything is made with oil. Did you know it takes 90 barrels of oil just to make one car?? How we gunna make elec cars with almost no oil and needing 90 barrels to make it? All commercial pesticides and fertilisers are oil based. How we gunna grow food? Almost all transport in our country is made by truck and oil. Etc etc. The list goes on. How we going to get things from china that we dont make in Australia? How costly will it be? We are in trouble. The whole world is and the sooner we all accept it, the sooner we will come to fix it. It may not be as bad as they say but it is happening. It aint that hard to put two and two together really....

Oh yes big conspiracy lmao

End of rant.

Paul

[mik]

blatant extortion in my book, last year i remember hearing we send gas to japan for 10 c.p.lor there abouts what are we paying...... bloody heaps, the reason we are having catalytic converters on our cars is because the oil companys make more profit from selling us the carcinogenic unleaded than alternative motor fuels, and its a gravy train for the government's but i think its gunna bite them on the **** because the motor industries are a big part of the economics of developed nations now they're starting to close factorys and sac people ,social security payments will go up heaps, well see what happens when the oil becomes not profitable for the oil companys they magicly will find something else to shaft us for dont worry about that.

[ninja]

it might help if we wernt taxed twice on every ltr

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Not really. When you heat crude oil to a certain temp it becomes something else. It becomes petrol at one temp, diesel at another. There's a whole heap of things that are made from it.

Sorry, I know this is a bit pedantic and you probably already know this and were merely simplifying it, but crude oil doesn't "become" lpg/petrol/diesel etc. Crude is in fact a mix of all of these things which are all in the alkane family of chemicals (+some other random crud). Each of these alkanes has a different boiling point, so by applying heat to the crude it is possible to boil off each of these alkanes in turn in a process called fractional distilliation, repetition of this process can be used to purify each fraction, so separating the crude into comonents more useful for specific applications.

Right now back on topic, Alkanes are one of the simplest form of a type of chemical called hydrocarbons, meaning they are made up primarily of hydrogen and CARBON.

As stated in the original post: (sorry for the dodgy editing, i'm a bit lazy this time of morning)

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

Howard cons motorists on fuel prices.

Any reputable geologist will tell you that OIL IS CREATED BY MAGMA OF THE EARTH.

I know a coupla geologists, any one of em who told me this I would punch in the mouth. MAGMA from memory is molten rock, consisting almost entirely of the element SILICON, petrol is a mixture of several short chain alkanes which are a hydrocarbon, of which a vital ingredient as mentioned earlier is in fact CARBON. The greatest source of carbon in the earths crust as far as I am aware is ancient organic matter, however if you can provide any information as to how silicon can be transformed into carbon I would be greatly impressed, and would summarily repeal what I am about to say with great embarrassment. In any case, with that basically being a physical impossibility without some incredibly complex nuclear reaction (I think so anyway, year 12 chem don't fail me now!), I am fairly confident of avoiding said embarrassment.

Any "reputable geologist" who told you this was high. If they were not high they were taking the ****. or possibly were not in fact a geologist at all, mayhap they were an organic chemist who was high or taking the ****. Look fact is, petrol/diesel/LPG are a fossil fuel and a finite resource. Don't believe me? look up the simple chemistry yourself. Face facts, act responsibly.

Oh and stop trying to blame the politicians for high oil prices they aint helping but they aren't the root of the problem, as someone mentioned earlier (i think so anyway) it's a supply and demand thing. If you're looking for a scapegoat, blame the chinese, their demand for oil has gone through the roof recently, but ours aint exactly goin down either. Want cheaper oil? stop using so much. It's a simple question with a simple (yet unpalatable) answer.

Neil.

EDIT: Actually the "magma of the earth" does play a part in the creation of hydrocarbon, it provides the heat required for the formation of crude FROM A SOURCE OF CARBON. just to clarify. _2:

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

You got an A++ for that? man i need to get me to TAFE! :

[mcflux]

I thought political threads were a nono?

Anyhoo, diesel tends to be derived from imported crude as Australia's light crudes don't have enough or a diesel fraction in them.

As for what happens when the oil runs dry... It shall be an interesting time indeed! LPG could be a temporary saviour for a couple of decades, as there is more gas than oil. This would require major retrofittings to the oil infratructure.

Oil Shale could be a possible alternative, but current extraction rates aren't really commercially viable. Canada contains enough oil shale (in volume/mass/whatever) to be comparable with the Arab states in crude. Shale however is "dirtier" with CO2 outputs, which I think is something to do with the difference between the shale and crude oils.

One other thing: When a well is tapped, it is not "sucked dry". The media in which the crude resides is a porous media, it is not a void simply filled with black liquid. It takes time for the crude to percolate through this media, so in a simplified explanation, if you were to halve pumping rates out of one well, you could triple its lifetime due to more percolation occurring.

Or... you could return to a previously "empty" well which had been pumped at an excessive rate, and find (after a number of years/decades this is) that it seems to have magically "filled up" again! This is no Tim Tam phenomenon though, it would not repeat forever, and you'd be lucky for a well to "fill up" even once. But some level will "return" after time, until the well is completely drained.

OK bed time for me.

-Dave-

[b0son]

Originally Posted by CRUIZIN EB

dam you got me its a copy and past but i haded it in at TAFE and i got a A++ and i'm stoked lol

Doesnt say much about the quality of tafe instructors...

[gtfpv]

i dont know why anyone is whinghing . we pay our rego our insurance our green slips . our maintenance our GST , our tolls . our 3x3 levy our speeding tickets our parking fines . our parking fees, our car import duty taxes . our luxury car tax. our excesses if we make a claim . our court costs if we go too court regarding an accident that we have all these insurances for , our airport parking taxes. our car wash fees, our water restriction fines for hosing the car incorrectly . our eway tag costs and taxes .our stamp duty, our dealer delivery fees. and now you want to complain because your petrol is costing you $100++ per week .
you have a hide man.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i dont know why anyone is whinghing . we pay our rego our insurance our green slips . our maintenance our GST , our tolls . our 3x3 levy our speeding tickets our parking fines . our parking fees, our car import duty taxes . our luxury car tax. our excesses if we make a claim . our court costs if we go too court regarding an accident that we have all these insurances for , our airport parking taxes. our car wash fees, our water restriction fines for hosing the car incorrectly . our eway tag costs and taxes .our stamp duty, our dealer delivery fees. and now you want to complain because your petrol is costing you $100++ per week .
you have a hide man.

Brilliant!

Actually you really are right on that 3x3 thing too. Except it should be called what it is; 18 x forever.
Last week I was coming home after a trip to Melbourne, and the last servo before the border was showing 108.0cpl. Get over the NSW border and the first servo I see is displaying 126.9cpl. They force you to stop there because as you pass the sign for NSW that says "Feel Free", (even though that's where the speed limit changes from 80 to 60) the road suddenly becomes full of potholes and corrugations which pound hell out of the tyres.

So, on this long journey home it got me thinking; Bob (Rokspider) Carr has told us that the 3x3 levy was removed years ago. What he hasn't told us is that he replaced it with his 18forever fuel tax.
It also got me thinking about the signs in Albury that showcase NSW, but somehow manage to summarise it for all of us.

Firstly, the sign that says "speed cameras used in NSW, how fast are you going now?". This should be replaced with "Revenue cameras are used in NSW - How much can we gouge you for now?"

The sign that says "NSW - Feel Free" should have a footnote attached to it so it reads "NSW - Feel Free - cause we tax you to death"

Also, gotta love how Melbourne to Albury is all four lane divided highways, yet once you get 5km over the NSW border it goes back to being undivided goat tracks. The road condition tends to deteriorate significantly too once the poor hapless cashcow, err, motorist enters NSW. But I must admit that I am not worried because afterall, there are revenue cameras in place to stop someone speeding. (Lucky for me for I thought my life could be in danger phew).

Before I get a raft of replies saying that the National corridors are the responsibility of the Federal Govt, I am aware of this however it is a partnership of state and federal capital that goes into the projects. Also, that useless c0ckf@g Joe Tripodi (NSW Roads minister) has done his best to make sure nothing is done. He actually has managed an all new record of making even Carl Scully look good. Have a read of this and you'll see what I mean. http://www.ministers.dotars.gov.au/j.../l124_2005.htm

In spite of all of the last ten years in turning NSW from the premier state into the most corrupt, inept and basically third world state I am 90% sure I am going to move to Victoria; where I can atleast escape Bob's 18Forever tax.

[tbearz]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Hell, I was going to blame Howard for that crash I attended the other day when a van hit a kid on a bike nearby.

I Blame Howard for us loosing the ashes, my reason why you may ask? well he takes credit for stuff that was out of his control like the economy and interest rates. So fudge him.....

But seriously i blame americans... stuffed up the world...... made oil/petrol/wtf you want to call it and screwed up FORD and GM. So fudge him and his little gimp howard. :

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by ltd

Last week I was coming home after a trip to Melbourne, and the last servo before the border was showing 108.0cpl. Get over the NSW border and the first servo I see is displaying 126.9cpl.

I know there is always a few cents difference between NSW and QLD/VIC/SA border towns, but the NSW state government subsidises petrol stations close to other state borders for the service station to remain competitive for through traffic - don't really know whats going on where you were.

[Greg302]

Originally Posted by tbearz

I Blame Howard for us loosing the ashes, my reason why you may ask? well he takes credit for stuff that was out of his control like the economy and interest rates. So fudge him.....

But seriously i blame americans... stuffed up the world...... made oil/petrol/wtf you want to call it and screwed up FORD and GM. So fudge him and his little gimp howard. :

agreed!!!!!!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by pandaman

Oblame the chinese, their demand for oil has gone through the roof recently,

This is true but not from automobiles it's actually chinese built tri wheel vehicles that is so inefficient that it wastes desiel. As there is no competition on this type of vehicle they dont have to make it more efficient and it's classified as a farm vehicle so it woint have to comply to any emmision laws (if they even have any). They (all the vehicles) use three times the amonut of oil in a year that all the cars in china use in a year.

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by vztrt

This is true but not from automobiles it's actually chinese built tri wheel vehicles that is so inefficient that it wastes desiel. As there is no competition on this type of vehicle they dont have to make it more efficient and it's classified as a farm vehicle so it woint have to comply to any emmision laws (if they even have any). They (all the vehicles) use three times the amonut of oil in a year that all the cars in china use in a year.

I read about that in a new scientist article, but that has been going on for decades. As i understand it, the main increase in demand for crude has been as a result of an increase in heavy industry activity.