Aussie hostage in Iraq

[xceler8shun]

Originally Posted by bindi

Agreed, hence my original statement...

Bindi your original statement mentioned nothing of this.

Originally Posted by bindi

I suppose what influences me is that I saw the Nick Berg beheading from last year/year before (?). My husband got it sent and he and I thought it was what we were shown on tv... but this was the WHOLE THING. I almost vomited and passed out.

He was alive for around 15-20 seconds, screaming then gurgling as they got a large KNIFE and hacked into his skin, then into his veins, then he finally died. And the head was finally cut from his body and it was held up as the f*ckheads were screaming about Allah and all that load of crap.

It is one of the most harrowing things I have ever seen... we deleted it straight away but it is etched into my memory.

And that's why anyone who is threatened with this to me needs to be rescued. I don't care how the guy got there, GET HIM OUT OF THERE NOW.

I've watched that vid like 10 times and still have it along with an assortment of other similar videos. To be honest I lost no sleep over them. These contractors knew the dangers of going into a warzone, but were after the $$$.

Now to pull military resources away from other critical operations to rescue a guy who went in for a quick $$$ and got caught, I'd make him pay the costs of his own rescue. He knew the danger.

What happens when military personnel are killed trying to rescue them?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by useless

Maybe he had to be like that.??? Several armies in Iraq cannot contain the violence and war but Saddam did. Maybe this was the way to keep the peace??

Stalin did the same thing too remember. Unfortunatly its a false peace. It is unsustainable and generally a veneer of the true and worse savagry going on underneith.

Fact is that the violence we are seeing now always existed, it was simply not publicly viewable because the media was completely controlled.

Dont kid yourself, how it is now is 100x better than when that lunatic was in control. He may have held some of the militents in check but at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.

And Bindi, you are right, the images of the beheading were disturbing but dont think for a moment that far worse hasnt happened to totally innocent women and children under the reign of Saddam. Want proof? Do a google search on his sons and have a read. I can assure you that not only will you be sick but you will probably change your mind over if we should be there trying to stop it.

[chelvdog]

We haven't heard alot about Saddam since his capture. I don't know of any trial begining against him and would be interested to know whats going on with all that.

Saddam took power by publicly assassinating members of the Iraqi government who apposed him. God knows the extent of what horrors were committed in secret!

Iraq needs to be rebuilt, period. The armed forces need to be there to stabilize the insurgents, contractors need to be there to do the building, etc. They chose to go there, no-one held a gun to their heads.
Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the guy and his family. His undies would have discovered a new shade of brown by now, but, the needs of the few are overshadowed by the needs of the masses.
We can let a whole country fall apart by letting one man live. There is no guarentee that the captors would keep him alive even if we did withdraw.
My question to you is this, a small school girl is standing on a road about to get hit by a school bus carrying 50kids. The only way for the bus to avoid killing the girl is to plummet over a cliff killing the 50 kids inside. What would you pick as the outcome?

[xceler8shun]

Originally Posted by chelvdog

My question to you is this, a small school girl is standing on a road about to get hit by a school bus carrying 50kids. The only way for the bus to avoid killing the girl is to plummet over a cliff killing the 50 kids inside. What would you pick as the outcome?

You would always sacrifice one to save many.


One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic - Joseph Stalin

[Deadman]

I haven't read all of the postings so this might have already been said, but didn't everyone notice that Iraq was a SAFER place under Saddam's dictatorship? Iraq NEEDED someone like Saddam because although bad things happened, less bad things happened, because all of these now 'free' rebels don't have any fear - before we came in, they feared Saddam, he had control of the country and was doing a much better job than the US (Saddam had even less weapons than the US - he just portrayed himself as more of a threat - and kept everyone affraid of him).

Besides, this whole weapons of mass distruction debate is ironic. We only see the side of the story from the US. Picture growing up, and all you ever saw was the US bombing your land, killing your parents and destroying everything you ever had. Don't tell me you wouldn't hate them? The US is just as evil as Iraq, we just happen to be friends with them. If Iraq was the world superpower, and wanted to stop the US developing any weapons like they currently have, don't tell me that the US wouldn't be ****ed off as well...

Always 2 sides to the story, we just get the slanted one that shows the US actually cares about 'world peace'... And we all know how accurate that is... out:

Any BS about how we're there for the good of the people will quickly disappear once we leave the country in a worse state than before we entered it. Just how the US let thousands of Iraq citizens die 10 years ago, when they agreed to stand up along side the US against Saddam, and then the US decided "eh, we don't feel like it anymore" and they all got slaughtered...

The US kills people, and has killed more innocent people than any other country or nation in the 20th / 21st Century - just not their 'own' innocent people (unless you count the largest number of domestic shooting deaths for any nation). I do not agree with how the Iraq militants do what they do, they are barbaric and damned people who deserve to get what they deserve. But if my only childhood memory was some foreign country bombing and killing my family - I would be ****ed off to.

It's always going to be subject that no one completely agrees on (except Howard when he sucks up to Bush). there are always different views and experience which makes us react differently to this situation. I am not saying my view is right - and please don't reply to me telling me i'm an idiot and thank god for the US... Everyone's opinion is valid and to some degree everyone's opinion is right (because it is how they feel - and that is right for them) and everyone is right to experess their views. That's just mine.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

I haven't read all of the postings so this might have already been said, but didn't everyone notice that Iraq was a SAFER place under Saddam's dictatorship? Iraq NEEDED someone like Saddam because although bad things happened, less bad things happened, because all of these now 'free' rebels don't have any fear - before we came in, they feared Saddam, he had control of the country and was doing a much better job than the US (Saddam had even less weapons than the US - he just portrayed himself as more of a threat - and kept everyone affraid of him).

Besides, this whole weapons of mass distruction debate is ironic. We only see the side of the story from the US. Picture growing up, and all you ever saw was the US bombing your land, killing your parents and destroying everything you ever had. Don't tell me you wouldn't hate them? The US is just as evil as Iraq, we just happen to be friends with them. If Iraq was the world superpower, and wanted to stop the US developing any weapons like they currently have, don't tell me that the US wouldn't be ****ed off as well...

Always 2 sides to the story, we just get the slanted one that shows the US actually cares about 'world peace'... And we all know how accurate that is... out:

Any BS about how we're there for the good of the people will quickly disappear once we leave the country in a worse state than before we entered it. Just how the US let thousands of Iraq citizens die 10 years ago, when they agreed to stand up along side the US against Saddam, and then the US decided "eh, we don't feel like it anymore" and they all got slaughtered...

So your saying that the ends (precieved peace) justified Saddams means (slaughter and genocide of tens of thousands of innocents and non combatants through routine exacution and torture)??

That is the worst argument for not being there as I've ever heard.

All those that claim that the US are "killing and destoying" the Iraw way of life etc and now your saying that its ok for genocide and torture as its needed to keep them in line?

Next you'll be saying it was fine for Stalin to starve millions for a greater good and Hitler was ok to kill off millions of Jews etc because "he understood what Europe was really like"?

Saddam was a monster, he has totally warped an entire generation of these poor people and created the monsters we see today either though supporting them or hunting them down. How dare anyone actually try to even REMOTELY justify the actions of one of the worlds most savage and evil dictators of modern times.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by Casper

How dare anyone actually try to even REMOTELY justify the actions of one of the worlds most savage and evil dictators of modern times.

I wasn't talking about George Bush...

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

The US kills people, and has killed more innocent people than any other country or nation in the 20th / 21st Century

Got any links to back that up?

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by smoo

Got any links to back that up?

I did ages ago (like 5 years) when I did a study on it. I'll get back to you if I can find them (guess i'll have to try google :p )

[EDIT]:

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

that's just a quick bunch of numbers i found (haven't read the whole site so not sure what's it's about)...

If ya have time to do some research - the info is not hard to find. Not to mention guns kill about 85 people every day in the US... compare that with Iraq...

Oh, and just one quote of hundreds you could find about the US in war:

"a US bomb flattened a flimsy mud-brick home in Kabul on Sunday blowing apart seven children as they ate breakfast with their father. The blast shattered a neighbour's house killing another two children …..the houses were in a residential area called Qalaye Khatir near a hill where the hard-line Taliban militia had placed an anti-aircraft gun." - reported by The Times (india)

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

I did ages ago (like 5 years) when I did a study on it. I'll get back to you if I can find them (guess i'll have to try google :p )

That is the biggest load of crap on earth. These so called figures (if they exist) probably include civilian murders etc. That is totally irrelevant (Aust has AS HIGH a civilian murder rate as the US per capita).
It would probably also include the stats from WW2 where "carpet bombing" of cities was part of accepted warefare and was practiced by all sides. Adding these numbers is simply distorting the result for an anti-US result and is so easy to pull apart its laughable.

The reigns of Hitler and Stalin were GOVERNMENTS that have murdered civilians in a time of so called peace or through organised and targeted genocide. At NO TIME since the early frontier days has the US (or Australia) actively persued a genocidal course NOR do the US treat life so cheaply that the government (either left or right) actively goes on mass murder spree's based on pathetic and generally wrong information.

I ask you to present your so called "documentation" along with who compiled it. If you cant then you are basically just going off on an Anti US, Anti Bush, Anti Whatever spree and you will simply be shown up as a fool.

[Deadman]

Casper, as I stated before, i'm not here for an argument, just to express my opinion, but as I can see, you don't wish to approach the topic with an open mind or wish to understand the topic in any great detail.

Let me just say, that your narrow-minded approach to this is unfortunate. Read more about the history of US in their wars, look into literature about these things, and please don't rely just on what you see on the 6pm news.

It's amazing how similar your responses are to the US government:

"I'm right so **** off!"

hehe.. typical... It's those kinds of responses and arogance that created people like Hitler...

And if he did win the war, you would have only been fed BS about how the US & Co. were the evil of the world... History is written by the Victors, and hence we get a very one sided view.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

Casper, as I stated before, i'm not here for an argument, just to express my opinion, but as I can see, you don't wish to approach the topic with an open mind or wish to understand the topic in any great detail.

Let me just say, that your narrow-minded approach to this is unfortunate. Read more about the history of US in their wars, look into literature about these things, and please don't rely just on what you see on the 6pm news.

It's amazing how similar your responses are to the US government:

"I'm right so **** off!"

hehe.. typical... It's those kinds of responses and arogance that created people like Hitler...

Mate, I'm not out to flame you but you come on and make huge claims and then have nothing substantial to back them up.
As for studying history, anyone who knows me personally (and there are quite a few on here) will know I am an amatuer war historian and have looked in detail at huge amounts of war (and cold war) information and data from hundreds of different sources. I know about war and casualties, I am well versed in the horrors of it and personally I have no intention of my children ever haveing to participate in it (or myself for that matter).

I have, during this time, seen more anti US and anti NATO information that you can imagine. Some of it quite factual too. I am not a pro US supporter in general. I also dont get into the anti US rhetoric I hear so much of.

In the end they are not perfect, far from it. They have had some big mistakes (as have many many other countries) however they are, in general, a compassionate country who do not want to see people murdered and killed.
To make a claim they are responsible for more "governement sponsered civilian murder" than the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, PolPot, or any number of tyranical maniacs, without any proof, is simply opening yourself up to being put in your place very quickly.

[xceler8shun]

Ford_Falcon_XR6 these so called websites that have your proof of numbers and stats that you claim to be true, could infact just be bullshit altogether.

Get some creditable references and evidence to back these claims up besides what some keyboard warriors have posted on the net as their version of the truth.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by xceler8shun

Ford_Falcon_XR6 these so called websites that have your proof of numbers and stats that you claim to be true, could infact just be bullshit altogether.

Get some creditable references and evidence to back these claims up besides what some keyboard warriors have posted on the net as their version of the truth.

*sigh* And your sources stating otherwise couldn't be bullshit all together? And it's interesting you wrote 'their version of the truth' - because that's all we get fed from the US....

Oh well, thanks for the conversation guys.. I'll have to leave FordForums I think for a while, because the second I post in a forum somewhere, I can just see "YOU LOVE SADDAM!" or "YOU SUCK" coming up underneath it just because my views differed from yours. I'm a racist bastard right because I don't aggree with you? Or am I a terrorist because I don't aggree with Howard? No. I just have my own head on my own two shoulders and don't choose just to accept all the BS the US feed us in the media. I never ever said my opinion was the correct one, the whole freaking point of my first article was to show that everyone has different opinions, which I thought is what one of the great things about us was.

I'm not some 10 year old try hard coming on here looking to stir everyone up, and I didn't intend to get stuck on here getting told what i have said is a load of crap and that the research i did for a uni assignment 5 years ago is BS because I couldn't find it... Um, did u notice I said the link I posted could be BS?? I was just trying to find a quick example, that site could very well be BS, but I didn't have the time to go the library etc and get artciles to prove this to you. And shock, I don't have my 5 year old assignment - because I stopped studying art after the first year to study IT, and I'm sorry i didn't keep it to post here...

I'm sorry I offended you all by trying to voice a different opinion which many Australians have - esspecially ones around my age - because we've only ever seen the US domiate the world. We weren't around in the 60's... I'm just wondering why you all didn't have to post 10000 facts to prove your points? Oh, because you're "right"... Sorry, I forgot...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

*sigh* And your sources stating otherwise aren't bullshit all together? And it's interesting you wrote 'their version of the truth' - because that's all you get fed from the US. I thought you would realise that by now.

Oh well, thanks for the conversation guys.. I'll have to leave FordForums I think for a while, because the second I post in a forum somewhere, I can just see "YOU LOVE SADDAM!" or "YOU SUCK" coming up underneath it just because my views differed from yours. I'm a racist bastard right because I don't aggree with you? Or am I a terrorist because I don't aggree with Howard? No. I just have my own head on my own two shoulders and don't choose just to accept all the BS the US feed us in the media. I never ever said my opinion was the correct one, the whole freaking point of my first article was to show that everyone has different opinions, which I thought is what one of the great things about us was.

I'm not some 10 year old try hard coming on here looking to stir everyone up, and I didn't intend to get stuck on here getting told what i have said is a load of crap and that the research i did for a uni assignment 5 years ago is BS because I couldn't find it... Um, did u notice I said the link I posted could be BS?? I was just trying to find a quick example, that site could very well be BS, but I didn't have the time to go the library etc and get artciles to prove this to you. And shock, I don't have my 5 year old assignment - because I stopped studying art after the first year to study IT, and I'm sorry i didn't keep it to post here...

I'm sorry I offended you all by trying to voice a different opinion which many Australians have - esspecially ones around my age - because we've only ever seen the US domiate the world. We weren't around in the 60's... I'm just wondering why you all didn't have to post 10000 facts to prove your points? Oh, because you're "right"... Sorry, I forgot...

Sarcasm isnt a valid argument.
You were the one that made the claim, not us.
As I said, the US are no angels by a long shot but they are also a democracy, not a dictatorship. They have their faults as do most countries but the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by the "government" for no better reason than your personal prefereces or religion is far from the thoughts of 99.9999% of its citizens. Can the same be said for Saddams Iraq?

[bindi]

I am really shocked and disappointed at how many pro war people are on these forums. Don't you think the world has battled enough? When are we all going to learn the true ways of peace? Don't you DARE say this is impossible. We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it. Don't give me this crap of "one person can't make a difference" either, we are letting Big Business and Governments all over the world get away with their dealings because it is easier than joining together and making a serious stand.

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him. The US put the bastard in there, they can take him out. It's just that they want CONTROL of the oil. They also want to be the Superheroes of the world, as they believe they are the one and only fkn power.

The US don't give a rat's **** about what is happening in other countries because they don't have the OIL... and therefore they can implode for all Georgie Porgie cares.

As long as it doesn't affect his God-riddled brain and his "moral" (very loosely-used term here) identity, then he can sweep other desperate nations and little-known countries under the carpet cos they have NOTHING to offer the US.

What about Mugabe, hey? He's been killing everyone and plunging Zimbabwe into total dictatorship and death and destruction, but nobody does anything to help these people. Georgie is SELECTIVE about who he "rescues", cos it has to look good. Georgie has to wear his underwear on the outside and don a cape.

HE LIED, THEY ALL LIED, JUST SO THEY COULD GO TO WAR - it's been proven time and time again, they've ADMITTED IT! So what else are they lying about???

EVERYTHING. :

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by Casper

Sarcasm isnt a valid argument.
They have their faults as do most countries but the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by the "government" for no better reason than your personal prefereces or religion is far from the thoughts of 99.9999% of its citizens. Can the same be said for Saddams Iraq?

In the US, the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by other citizens for no better reason than your personal preferences or religion is more relevent don't you think? As I said before, 85 people are shot dead in america every day by their own citizens, not to mention the rapes, tortures, kidnappings and bashings...

Why don't you see that as a concern? That the world's superpower is such a self destructive country? Or do you WANT us to always be at war?

[bindi]

Ok ok... I respect that people are entitled to their opinion, and that it's ok for disagreement to occur. I suppose I wasn't expecting the responses is all, it kinda took me offguard and I let loose.

Let's agree to disagree and perhaps one day we may all be on the same "side" and change the world together.

Also there was personal attack of someone (Ford_Falcon_XR6) for trying to put up a different opinion to the general gist of most posters.

Moderators, if you are anywhere, perhaps you could just close this thread down, it's causing too much grief and aggression.

Thanks.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by bindi

Ok ok... I respect that people are entitled to their opinion, and that it's ok for disagreement to occur. I suppose I wasn't expecting the responses is all, it kinda took me offguard and I let loose.

Let's agree to disagree and perhaps one day we may all be on the same "side" and change the world together.

Also there was personal attack of someone (Ford_Falcon_XR6) for trying to put up a different opinion to the general gist of most posters.

Moderators, if you are anywhere, perhaps you could just close this thread down, it's causing too much grief and aggression.

Thanks.

Aggreed

[Sourbastard]

Having lived in the US, and having married one of their.... species.. I am the last person to defend the US, infact I disapprove of their continent.

That being said, war will always be a part of life. Infact if you look at human history, in some part of the world, war is always being waged in some form or another for the last 5,000 years. Its been constant. If you havent heard it on the news, it doesnt mean its not occuring.

Joining hands and pretending we love each other is not part of human psychology at this point in time. It may never be. As long as there is some ignorant tyrant, there will always be cause for warfare or rebellion. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, that includes revolution from time to time, although its unlikely to happen in australia unless a paid day off was promised.

One country will always have something another does not, and as long as thats the case, there will be people willing to send others to die to obtain it. That is the probable case in regards to Iraq, and the fact it has happened should not be a surprise to anyone. Its what empires do to maintain their empires, and the United States is as much of an empire as the Romans or the Greeks or the English or the Turks when their empires were flourishing.

We are now at war(And dont doubt it for lack of symantics), drawn into a situation not of our making, but we are involved, and should continue to be involved if not for the reason we went to war, then for rebuilding the mess we have made.

Or we can leave tomorrow, leave the mess, let even more bloodshed continue as the militants draw people to their cause, slaughtering those that oppose. Let them starve, let religion replace education, and then we can have the real rogue nation supporting terrorism be created, that George Dubbya only imagined when he commenced his operations.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

In the US, the fear of being kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by other citizens for no better reason than your personal preferences or religion is more relevent don't you think? As I said before, 85 people are shot dead in america every day by their own citizens, not to mention the rapes, tortures, kidnappings and bashings...

Why don't you see that as a concern? That the world's superpower is such a self destructive country? Or do you WANT us to always be at war?

Of course its a concern however labelling it as a "murdeous governement" or that they are a "murderous" country as a whole is a huge leap. The fact is that thats approx 2704 shootings a year. From a population of 260million thats a grand total of 0.0000104% of the population....or for referance thats approx 208 shootings a year (4 a week) in Australia. Do you think there was more or less killing than that in Saddams Iraq??? So your arguement, while already stepping away from your initial claims, still does not hold much sway. Not only is this the civilian population doing this but as a percentage its actually not horrendoulsy bad. Every death is a horror but perspective is needed.

Considering that every conutry in the world probably has a similar murder rate I dont see anything here but a sad indictment of modern society as a whole, regardless of contry.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bindi

I am really shocked and disappointed at how many pro war people are on these forums. Don't you think the world has battled enough? When are we all going to learn the true ways of peace? Don't you DARE say this is impossible. We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it. Don't give me this crap of "one person can't make a difference" either, we are letting Big Business and Governments all over the world get away with their dealings because it is easier than joining together and making a serious stand.

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him. The US put the bastard in there, they can take him out. It's just that they want CONTROL of the oil. They also want to be the Superheroes of the world, as they believe they are the one and only fkn power.

The US don't give a rat's **** about what is happening in other countries because they don't have the OIL... and therefore they can implode for all Georgie Porgie cares.

As long as it doesn't affect his God-riddled brain and his "moral" (very loosely-used term here) identity, then he can sweep other desperate nations and little-known countries under the carpet cos they have NOTHING to offer the US.

What about Mugabe, hey? He's been killing everyone and plunging Zimbabwe into total dictatorship and death and destruction, but nobody does anything to help these people. Georgie is SELECTIVE about who he "rescues", cos it has to look good. Georgie has to wear his underwear on the outside and don a cape.

HE LIED, THEY ALL LIED, JUST SO THEY COULD GO TO WAR - it's been proven time and time again, they've ADMITTED IT! So what else are they lying about???

EVERYTHING. :

Bindi,
You have made some very good points there and I agree with most of them. Firstly, War is bad, it is not something to be taken lightly at all. Any time there is needless death it is a tragedy. I am certainly not for war at all however were we differ is I fully accept that at time it is required to prevent even worse atrocities. It becomes the lesser of two evils in that case.
Now you may argue that there is NEVER an excuse to go to war however there is. That’s not to say we should want to, nor should we do so flippantly. It is the very last of the last resorts. When everything else has been tried and failed, it is the only option left.

So why should we ever need to go to war? Well, hopefully, never. Given a civilized world with tolerance and patience it would never be needed. Unfortunately it is not a civilized world. You are doing your part, I try to do mine, but there are many that choose to use force to gain power. Not in the way you are thinking but true, violent, bloodletting force. Literally killing opponents in cold blood along with anyone else who gets in their way. Then establishing a dictatorship where they are totally unaccountable for their actions. This, as you have said, is happening in Zimbabwe right now. The difference is that not all the other avenues of negotiation have been used. Far from it. You have to remember that Iraq was under 10+ years of sanctions. It was also directly threatening its neighbors on more than one occasion. Zimbabwe has not. So there are vast differences. Enough for me to be rigidly opposed to the US or anyone else mounting an armed invasion to stop it…..even if it does hold some of the biggest diamond and gold mines in the world (yes, it too has vast wealth as well).

Bindi, your thoughts are good, they are compassionate and heartfelt…but they are, in this current world, unrealistic. The best we can do is try to be the one person to make a difference however, realistically, that’s all we can do. Maybe in the future it will be achieved but in the 21st century there is still a lot of violence and hate that will make war a sad but necessary fact.

[Schmaigz]

/me applauds
Incredibly well put sourbastard.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by bindi

We are CHOOSING this life for ourselves and our planet. WE ARE ALL IN TOTAL CONTROL OF OUR LIVES AND DESTINIES, and this is what we are doing with it.

Think about that when you look at the photos of the bodies of thousands of Kurds and anti-Saddam Iraqis who were killed like dogs for having something to say.

If it was so important for Sadam to be out of the picture, it seriously would not have taken much for some lone sniper to go to Iraq and shoot him.

I doubt it would do anything but make things worse. You'd then have an organised military who was VERY ****ed off with you, no doubt with Uday Hussen in change.

One thing a lot of people over look France and Germany. They were against this war in the first place and all the lefties jumped behind them saying how great they were, without bothering to look where their oil came from.

I often wonder if people were this vocal about the Allied involvement in WW2.

[mcflux]

Iraq, like Vietnam, well, umm, how should I put it... Neither went to plan!

Vietnam had a messy outcome (and its people are still suffering from Agent Orange), and Iraq is a mess at the moment.

Pre-2003 the world was stuck with a dilemma:

Iraq was ruled by Saddam Hussein. He, his sons, and Baath party members ruled with an iron fist, mistreating citizens in the process. George Bush (who I am no fan of -- except for his quality speeches -- but I will try to make this as neutral as possible) simplified this dilemma to two options, however he probably didn't think of it in this way:

1) Take no action. Saddam continues to rule Iraq, and only after he dies, let's say 30 years from now (still in power) are the mass graves discovered, if at all. Iraq remains under sanctions for the entire period of his dictatorship and the vast majority of citizens are impoverished.

2) Take action, get rid of Saddam, rebuild Iraq. Ideally this outcome would be lovely. Unfortunately reality got in the way and this has proven to be very messy, especially in the short term. The Coalition's less-than-perfect attempt can only be judged in hindsight, decades from now. Kind of like Hiroshima (bomb a city & nuke civilians, or potentially fight until 1950?)

Iraq will be a mess for a long time. The US took action, and this is the result. Nothing we can do about it now! What's been done has been done.

As for the contractor, I feel for him, but he went into a dangerous place, so that automatically means he accepted the risk! He lost out. Let's hope he is freed. If the Australian Government does not comply, hopefully his family can get a loan or something (equity mate?) and privately negotiate his release, despite the fact that one of the main demands is for aussie troops to be withdrawn.

-Dave-

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I often wonder if people were this vocal about the Allied involvement in WW2.

OK, so I'm mentioning the Axis here, but anyway...

1) Hitler f**ked up, he could've had England if he didn't stop bombing the airfields, instead focusing on London

2) Hitler f**ked up again, he gave in to temptation with Russia. Come on! He had a non-aggression pact with Russia for crying out loud! (or something like that)

3) Japan picked the wrong day to bomb Pearl Harbour.

WAAAAAAY off topic!

Anyhoo, if it wasn't for WW2, I wouldn't be alive today. My nanna was widowed due to her first husband dying in combat, then met my pa later during the war (due to being stationed at the same airbase). So I perversely, and grudgingly owe Hitler my life. How FUBARed is that?!?

-Dave-

PS I don't like Hitler!

[ssj_jaypee]

If you go to ogrish.com you can watch footage of the hostages in iraq getting killed.
Just if you're interested... thats all.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by bindi

Just heard this on the news this morning.

http://seven.com.au/news/topstories/78331

We shouldn't have gone to war AT ALL and now look what's happened... PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW!

That's exactly what the gutless ****ers want. Big heroes hiding their faces, and using fear and violence to try and regain a country that was run on torture and murder.

Originally Posted by charliewool

What was this guys motive for being there? Doesn't sound like humanitarian?... More like the almighty dollar? Regardless though...It'd be terrifying.

The company I work for have opportunities all over the world, including Iraq. Personally I have no ambition to become a hostage, or target, simply by being there to try and help get their Information Technology back online.

This is the impact these shit-for-brains are having, by keeping their country a backward society.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

1) Hitler f**ked up, he could've had England if he didn't stop bombing the airfields, instead focusing on London

Actually, it was never going to happen. Even if the RAAF had been wiped out they simply did not have the resources to get men over the channel in sufficient quantities nor the ability to wipe out the entire British Fleet that could have sat off the coast of France and levelled Calais within a number of hours.

The battle of Britan as we know it was a diversion. At the time it occured the majority of troops were being rerouted to the impending Russian campaign. There was never a legitimate invasion plan.

Useless info for you all.

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

2) Hitler f**ked up again, he gave in to temptation with Russia. Come on! He had a non-aggression pact with Russia for crying out loud! (or something like that)

True he did in 1939 but he also knew that he needed the war in Europe finished asap. The plan was to dispose of Germanys' most aggressive and unpredicatable foe, the Russians.. It wasn't temptation he gave in to but due to the overwhelming success of his Blitzkrieg tactics he reasoned Germany couldn't afford to wait until the English, Americans and Russians were ready for war.. Meaning he would have to fight all three at once. THe logic was to dispose of the Soviets swiftly then be ready for a fight with USA and Britian with an abundance of rescources captured in the East.

Some more usless off topic info