How to beat a LS1?

[EB Pete]

Alright. well i know i have started alot of debate over this and i thought why not get a few tips and answers while i'm at it.

the reason for this thread is while at the pub tonight all the holden boys were taking the out of us ford boys (pretty much 10 vs 1), and i'm really sick of it, i really am. 4 yrs of it sorta gets annoying. so here goes my new project, 4.0l vs LS1/308/350. well by the looks of that it aint going my way to much. i know it would be easier to stroke a 5.0l and slap a charger on it but i like a challenge.

before we get to the technical side off things i need a car (prefer ea/b/d style, but if you can convince me to do ef/l i'm all ears) a block to start with aswell as transmission and drive line.

now i don't know much about turbos and all that stuff so this is where i need your help. i'm thinking to start with i need a AU motor with the variable cam timing,bbm and the flasher unit ect? what do yas think?

i know most off you are going to say i'm dreaming but they seem to know nothing about cars and are only pushing about 300hp at the wheels. so the project has a dead line of this time next year. if anyone wants to help please just throw your 2 bobs worth in and include prices and we will see what i can come up with.

thanks heaps
pete j

[1TUFFUTE]

well id be thinking a light ed xr6 as a good platform.A manual ud think.
I said ed they are hell light and it wouldnt take much to lighten em up a bit more if ur serious.

Then the ussual 170-180rwkw mods(look at my signature)and all off a sudden ur easily running equal if not better times then them for probably well under 15000 including the car and not even a turbo yet.

I hear a light on turbo package can be picked up easy if u still want over 200rwkws :Up_to_som

[XRated]

EA, AU block, AU head with some suitable turbo work and matching cam, decent turbo blah blah, T5Z, 3.9s.

[BOOSTDEF]

Just whack a snail on a stock E series motor.

Get a cheap snort kit, run about 6psi with stock ecu and injectors. The mid range torque will surprise you.

[ZEDAYE]

G`day Mate the bottom line is that the LS1 is the next best thing in the mighty US of A and is recieving more R&D from private companies than Ford could ever dream of doing for any of it`s engine designs! So if you want to stick it up `em a dirty great big turbo on a EFI 4.1 would be the way to go! Not only would it be on a crappy 6 cyl you could run it in a "vintage" XD/XE and really `em off!

[Aaron_EF8]

the LS1 is the next best thing in the mighty US of A and is recieving more R&D from private companies than Ford could ever dream of doing for any of it`s engine designs!

Except the little ol' Windsor perhaps, 46 years and still getting aftermarket parts developed for it ;)

The only way you're going to beat a GenIII is with some boost. And that might only beat a bolt-on modded GenIII. For instance, an LS2 (HSV 6.0L) will make around 370rwhp (275rwkw) with an aftermarket exhaust, extractors, CAI and LS2Edit. Even a totally stock VTII SS LS1 will make around 180rwkw, an edit and exhaust will see over 220rwkw, so you won't be beating any with an NA 4.0 SOHC.

The car is your choice, they're just something to hold the motor and trans off the ground. XD-XF Falcons are light, so are old Fish shop Falcons (XK-XP) as well as Cortinas. EF-EL's are heavier than EA-ED's, so there's no advantage in using an EF.

I personally would be looking at using a Garret GT40 or similar on a rebuilt, de-comped bottom end with a NIZPRO style log manifold on the BBM lower, A2A FMIC, 2500 stall in a rebuilt BTR and 3.23 gears.

2 things worth noting, auto's are well suited to turbo engines, you don't have to back off between shifts, so there is no turbo lag, and turbo 4.0's make bucketloads of torque low in the rev range, so short diff gears are pointless, as the turbo won't be making enough boost to be worthwhile.

[Edit] - Is this project replacing the EB, or is it the new plans for the EB??

[MIKEVYII]

Yes the LS1's are a good motor. I have Two LS1 powered cars one 205rwkw (standard HSV) & the other with a maf edit & bolt on's 225rwkw. But I wont bag or try to race You. As i also have a Slug Au v8 ute rwkw unkown (but no where near 200) : : Oh you could wack a XR6 turbo motor in a ED now that would go. bloody nice :

[BI6TIM]

Get an EA Gl, the earliest one you can find. They are the lightest cause they had nothing in them. Get an AU 6cyl and a snort kit (or any turbo kit really just not too small) and get another haltech. This would also be a good place for your BTR to live if you really wanted to get the manual for your EB. Oh yeah, don't go any shorter diff ratio than 3.27 or 3.45 would be ok in an auto.

[Olympus]

Stuff the engine modifications, just rip you're hole interior out, take off all you're bumpers, take off your all your doors and remove your bonnet/bootlid and fenders.

[Walkinshaw]

attach a tow rope to the LS1

[dansedgli]

Get an early E series. If your going to use an AU motor its going to need forged pistons to run any kind of decent boost levels.

If it was me doing it again I would put an AU XR6 motor into a EA, make sure it has forged pistons to lower the comp to 8:1, new valve springs and a custom turbo grind crow cam, run a C4 transmission with 3000ish stall, put on a T04Z, GT3540 or a GT42 and a progate, run a 3.45 LSD.

Put in an aftermarket ECU in with big injectors 660cc+. Bosch motorsport fuel pump, surge tank, big intercooler, 6BOOST manifold and bobs your uncle.

A gt35/40 would push an easy 310 rwkw at 14 psi. That would be enough to keep most LS1's away. It wouldnt be too laggy and it would run low 11's or faster in a light EA with the right transmission.

[naughtyfalcon]

a well aimed cannon should beat one fairly well i'd think.

[xd5.8l]

One song comes into mind..........

Cause I'm a Dream weaver dah dah dah dah dah till the night.

[NeishaXR8_347]

AC cobra with a 347cui stroker??? only 900kgs and even with a 5L can run in the 10's.

[Fairlane]

How to beat a LS1?

Cricket Bat or crowbar works well- Extra cred if you use it 'beat' a statesman or caprice


On another note beating a stock LS1 isnt that hard, but beating a modded LS1 forget it. It would be easier to buy an 2nd hand xr6t.

The only thing i can think of against a modded LS1 is using an EA with an AU motor and forced induction. Turbo or Supercharge and 3.9 diff gears and you might have a chance.

[EASPRINT]

Nothing like beating some LS1's.......its lots of fun....lol. Infact any holden v8 is great fun when your beating it. I think if you wanted to stay with a NA engine, it would be possible to build one capable of beating a stock LS1 down 400m.

[TUF_302]

By a Typhoon??? :

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by SVO_XR6

By a Typhoon??? :

I was just about to suggest buying a Bugatti Veyron! You'd beat the LS1 before it would even make it off the start line.

[1TUFFUTE]

i hear there is a 13.8 sec ba i6 gettin around now. Thatd do it id say

[STOKEB]

Stick it on the bottle then you will on them without a problem lol

[kyro_02]

throw in a truck turbo ....

[BLSTIC]

im reckoning a TC or later cortina, with a mildly boosted EF engine. powered by megasquirt, just for the hell of it.

Cortina (less engine/box) $500
EL engine and auto $800
T28 (rb25 roller bearing turbo) $300
Custom tube manifold (log style) $500?
Oil/water lines $80?
GTR Intercooler $300?
Megasquirt EFI and sensors $350
Modified tailshaft $200 ?
Exhaust $600

so thats about $3600 for about 1200kg and 180rwkw

dont know how long the 2nd hand engine and gearbox will last though, especially if you get a bigger huffer. a t28 on a 4L would boost fairly low, so you can keep the standard diff ratio and not have to buy a high stall, and still launch.

also, engineers might require a different braking system and better seat belts, depending on what the standar car has. and after all of that, an injected, turbocharged cortina has to be worth $7000 when you sell it...

cya
Ben

[LTDHO]

if you bolt a blower to it, then you only won because you are forced.

I'd buy a 5.0 Manual E-seires, probably EB to keep cost down.
Rebuild the motor with a stroker kit, head work and cam.
Change Diff to 3.45 or 3.7 and tighten LSD.

It will remain looking stock/original and will annihilate any LS1

[Aaron_EF8]

im reckoning a TC or later cortina, with a mildly boosted EF engine. powered by megasquirt, just for the hell of it.

Cortina (less engine/box) $500
EL engine and auto $800
T28 (rb25 roller bearing turbo) $300
Custom tube manifold (log style) $500?
Oil/water lines $80?
GTR Intercooler $300?
Megasquirt EFI and sensors $350
Modified tailshaft $200 ?
Exhaust $600

so thats about $3600 for about 1200kg and 180rwkw

If only it was that cheap and simple....

MS2 is more like $550, plus sensors, wiring, assembly and a WBO2 sensor to tune it. Off the top of my head you'll also need a boost controller, intercooler piping, a dump pipe, injectors, custom engine mounts, custom trans mount, trans cooler, new diff, 5-stud wheel setup.

Beating a near stock GenIII Commodore with a turbocharged, EFI, OHC Cortina doesn't really sound like something you'd brag about, IMO...

[ON_DUBS]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

if you bolt a blower to it, then you only won because you are forced.

thats a difficult position becuase i use that excuse all the time, yet i can't wait to turbo my own car.

[sam12h]

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

a well aimed cannon should beat one fairly well i'd think.

:evil_laug :hihi: :evil3: Hilarious!

How much of a challenge do you want? & under what circumstances do you want to beat an LS1? ie. where is the goal post? I ask this because stock, bolt ons & opened will do very different times. Are you only interested in a straight line contest? Do you consider NOS to be cheating any more than you do a turbo? If not then NOS will leave 99% of N/A cars for dead. What about the credibility of achieving your goal in a Falcon (even a light one) rather than an obviously lighter car like the cortina or capri?

EA, EA2 or EB1 with AU vct motor as you first suggested would be the best possible starting point, be it circuit or straightline performance. A stock AU XR6 accelerates faster than a stock BA XR6, because the AU is lighter. An EA/EB1 will be lighter again. Then add a shorter diff, a cam & extractors. Keep the VCT & dual length inlet manifold. Uprated clutch, T5 & short shifter, soft rear shocks & springs. Sticky high profile rear tyres, a good reaction time & there you go. Be aware that if you add a turbo & manage a sub 11, the ANDRA gets very strict on safety add ons to the car (need a cage etc).

Do you just want to shut these blokes up at the pub? If so, baffle them with science & current examples. Research what the fastest LS1's have done & in what state of tune in a straight line or on a dyno. Members on here have already done this for you with their E-series cars http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...2&page=9&pp=25 Just remember when you present this that people are prone to making stuff up to win an argument. Not as easy here on the forums with url links to back statements up. Another thing to present to the argument is the top half of the saloon cars (even when they were, with driver, 1450kg EA/EB & 1350kg VN/VP) will lap some race circuits faster than the V8 Brutes. Unlike the V8Supercars, the Brutes use production engines, so their beloved LS1 is in the commodore utes. The following link demonstrates that the commodore cup (control spec 4.2LV8s pushing 1345kg with driver) are only slightly quicker, & the V8 utes are slightly SLOWER at wakefield park http://www.tascco.com.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79 Power to weight I hear you say? Well yes, mostly, & because less weight for braking & cornering is more important on the circuit than more power. V8 Brutes are harder on brakes than V8Supercars as a result of their weight. Here is the Saloon car rules for EA/EB (& VN/VP) so you can see how little freedoms they have. http://www.tascco.com.au/downloads/T...cal%20Regs.pdf

If you build it, you may as well enjoy it as much as you can. Besides, anyone can drive fast in a straight line : For circuit work like a hill climb or supersprint you only need a few basic safety add ons like tailshaft loop, 2nd bonnet catch, etc. You will have a helmet & neck to wrists to ankle covering from drag racing already. Go with class 2 or 3 if you stay NA (limited modifications or improved production), or class 5 (open) if you go turbo. To the above mentioned, add larger (adjustable) roll bars, bendix metal king or ultimate pads (great performance for at least 10 consecutive laps at a time) & fresh dot4 fluid with otherwise good condition stock brakes, fresh lowered shocks & springs (prefer superlows myself), 17X8 or similar sized wheels with good rubber. Look up CAMS clubs in your area to find events near you & have some fun.

[kyro_02]

mate all you should do is get a 5hitter box, like so its ugly as all hell and cheap and nasty, don't worry bout the paint if its ruined leave stock height and leaves the factory wheels on, slap on the biggest turbo with minimal lag .... after engine work of course... and get to 30psi and they won't have a chance :P

get the lightest car you can get in a ford with engine 6cyl and turbo it

it will look like it could get 20seconds... if someone looks at it but boot it and they'll get a big shock lol

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by FAIRMONT4.0

thats a difficult position becuase i use that excuse all the time, yet i can't wait to turbo my own car.

Well that's I get :(

[sam12h]

Originally Posted by kyro_02

mate all you should do is get a 5hitter box, like so its ugly as all hell and cheap and nasty, don't worry bout the paint if its ruined leave stock height and leaves the factory wheels on, slap on the biggest turbo with minimal lag .... after engine work of course... and get to 30psi and they won't have a chance :P

get the lightest car you can get in a ford with engine 6cyl and turbo it

it will look like it could get 20seconds... if someone looks at it but boot it and they'll get a big shock lol

Good luck gettin that past scriutineering : Especially if you run a sub 11.

Perhaps a plain but good looking one, but not a poo-box.

[1TUFFUTE]

try (beating) it with a stick :