E-gas to get DSC in H1 2009

[madmelon]

Just read this news on carpoint. I've seen it mentioned a few times that you can't have TC/DSC and gas coz it'd backfire. Am I the only person who thinks this implies that there's a new gas system coming out for the Falcon next year?

http://carpoint.com.au/car-review/2970254.aspx

[Cobra]

It's either incorrect or it's incorrect. It won't get DSC with the old LPG system and it won't get a new LPG system with only a year and a half of life left in the I6 (from 1st Jan 09).

[AUXRVIII]

If an engine has petrol injection, then it can have LPG injection. An system fitted to an I6 can easily be reconfigured to work on a V6.

[Bossxr8]

Going by the current emissions laws it would have to be Euro 4 emissions compliant, and I can't see Ford going to the effort of emissions compliance for such a short amount of time.

All development on the I6 was cancelled last year.

The only thing I can think of is if somehow they have modified the DSC/TC to work with the current system.

[JPFS1]

hhmmm.... well there's something being prepared... ;) and it's not only engines...

[jornsmith]

hi guys. for those of us who don't know, why can't the lpg system be paired with dsc/tc?

[Whitey-AMG]

Well my understanding is that the LPG by passes the Injectors in a standard VAPOUR LPG system.....( as opposed to a SVI LPG system )

TC / DSC works by cutting fuel to the engine via injector / spark cut out when it senses slip / traction loss etc. By cutting engine power , the TC / DSC can work to regain the cars balance / traction loss issues.

The issue with LPG systems that bypass the injectors, is that with TC activated, the car doesn't realise that the LPG is still flowing into the cylinder ( bypassing the injectors ). In doing so, you get a build up of unburnt LPG in the cylinder. Guess what happens when the TC is deactivated after the car thinks it has regained traction and starts firing the cylinder again ..................BOOM.

Current SVI LPG systems overcame this issue...........or so I was led to believe ???

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by ESP

Well my understanding is that the LPG by passes the Injectors in a standard VAPOUR LPG system.....( as opposed to a SVI LPG system )

TC / DSC works by cutting fuel to the engine via injector / spark cut out when it senses slip / traction loss etc. By cutting engine power , the TC / DSC can work to regain the cars balance / traction loss issues.

The issue with LPG systems that bypass the injectors, is that with TC activated, the car doesn't realise that the LPG is still flowing into the cylinder ( bypassing the injectors ). In doing so, you get a build up of unburnt LPG in the cylinder. Guess what happens when the TC is deactivated after the car thinks it has regained traction and starts firing the cylinder again ..................BOOM.

Current SVI LPG systems overcame this issue...........or so I was led to believe ???

Pretty correct through my understanding.

Originally Posted by ESP

Well my understanding is that the LPG by passes the Injectors in a standard VAPOUR LPG system.....( as opposed to a SVI LPG system )

TC / DSC works by cutting fuel to the engine via injector / spark cut out when it senses slip / traction loss etc. By cutting engine power , the TC / DSC can work to regain the cars balance / traction loss issues.

The issue with LPG systems that bypass the injectors, is that with TC activated, the car doesn't realise that the LPG is still flowing into the cylinder ( bypassing the injectors ). In doing so, you get a build up of unburnt LPG in the cylinder. Guess what happens when the TC is deactivated after the car thinks it has regained traction and starts firing the cylinder again ..................BOOM.

Current SVI LPG systems overcame this issue...........or so I was led to believe ???

My GAS Injected XR8 has traction control that very much works on gas.

Shutting off the injectors on a T/B injected system wouldn't do a great deal.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by Shounak

My GAS Injected XR8 has traction control that very much works on gas.

Shutting off the injectors on a T/B injected system wouldn't do a great deal.

There are no injectors on the throttle body setup on the E-gas Falcons.

Regards,
Dave

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

There are no injectors on the throttle body setup on the E-gas Falcons.

Regards,
Dave

Referring to why the TC doesn't work on dual fuel set ups. But yeah.

What exactly did they strengthen on the e-gas motors? Was it simply the valve and valve seats?

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by Shounak

Referring to why the TC doesn't work on dual fuel set ups. But yeah.

You can't cut the fuel supply to individual cylinders with any single point system, be it carburetted petrol or mixer-based LPG. T/C relies on multipoint fuel injection as well as ignition control. Cutting the spark to one cylinder can be dangerous, especially on LPG.

What exactly did they strengthen on the e-gas motors? Was it simply the valve and valve seats?

Connecting rods too. I can't see why Ford would need to installed hardened valve seats, 'coz the valve seats on the petrol Falcons are indestructible anyway!

Regards,
Dave

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Going by the current emissions laws it would have to be Euro 4 emissions compliant, and I can't see Ford going to the effort of emissions compliance for such a short amount of time.

All development on the I6 was cancelled last year.

The only thing I can think of is if somehow they have modified the DSC/TC to work with the current system.

I've been under the impression that it's much easier to meet emissions with LPG than petrol...but that may only be after it's warmed up.

[Airmon]

Should be optional, I miss having the ability to do backfires

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Just read this news on carpoint. I've seen it mentioned a few times that you can't have TC/DSC and gas coz it'd backfire. Am I the only person who thinks this implies that there's a new gas system coming out for the Falcon next year?

http://carpoint.com.au/car-review/2970254.aspx

I posted the same thing the other day, thought it was in the 5 stars / Go Auto reference, couldn't find it.

Anyway, great to see someone else pick up on it! ie if it DSC then it gets a Direct Injection gas system!

Here's hoping the system is liquid injection!

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by phillyc

I posted the same thing the other day, thought it was in the 5 stars / Go Auto reference, couldn't find it.

Anyway, great to see someone else pick up on it! ie if it DSC then it gets a Direct Injection gas system!

Here's hoping the system is liquid injection!

Sorry man, didn't mean to make a repost- just didn't see it in a thread title when I had a quick browse.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Sorry man, didn't mean to make a repost- just didn't see it in a thread title when I had a quick browse.

Don't be sorry at all! I didn't mean to cut your grass. I'm happy that it has it's own thread anyway. I couldn't find my post.

My point was that I couldn't believe that most people including Go-Auto, who are without doubt the most comprehensive industry writers didn't pick up what you and I did from the DSC statement! ie DSC means that the LPG system will be updated.

The more I think about this, the more likely that Liquid Injection will be on the agenda.

The reasoning is that Ford had an agreement with a Melbourne company to use their SVI LPG system, but Dutch firm Vaille and their local distributor, Boral?, got into a legal fight over who owned what technology. Unfortunately, this dragged out from 2005, meaning that Ford was left with the ring-mixer unit, and those two fighting groups got nothing which is what they deserved for stuffing Ford up plenty.

From what I hear, those two still haven't sorted the issues, so Ford will go the newer system and steal a march on Holden and Toyota who both use Denso SVI.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by madmelon

I've been under the impression that it's much easier to meet emissions with LPG than petrol...but that may only be after it's warmed up.

Because LPG uses a lot more fuel than a petrol engine the emissions that are emitted are only around less than 10% lower than an equivalent petrol engine, so the difference isn't that great at all. From memory only 6-7%.

There can be no way they have a new LPG system, I think having a DSC/TC system that uses nothing but the brakes and fore goes a spark cut may be the solution, or maybe they have come up with some way to cut the gas flow while the DSC/TC system is activated. All I6 development work finished last year, so there is no chance of a different LPG system for the I6.

[madmelon]

Well whatever happens, I just hope they have something good for when V6 comes.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by phillyc

...Holden and Toyota who both use Denso SVI.

Dunno where you got that from???

Holden use IMPCO-BRC Sequent 56 systems for the Commodore and Toyota uses Landi Renzo systems for the Camry and Aurion.

Regards,
Dave

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by phillyc

Don't be sorry at all! I didn't mean to cut your grass. I'm happy that it has it's own thread anyway. I couldn't find my post.

My point was that I couldn't believe that most people including Go-Auto, who are without doubt the most comprehensive industry writers didn't pick up what you and I did from the DSC statement! ie DSC means that the LPG system will be updated.

The more I think about this, the more likely that Liquid Injection will be on the agenda.

The reasoning is that Ford had an agreement with a Melbourne company to use their SVI LPG system, but Dutch firm Vaille and their local distributor, Boral?, got into a legal fight over who owned what technology. Unfortunately, this dragged out from 2005, meaning that Ford was left with the ring-mixer unit, and those two fighting groups got nothing which is what they deserved for stuffing Ford up plenty.

From what I hear, those two still haven't sorted the issues, so Ford will go the newer system and steal a march on Holden and Toyota who both use Denso SVI.

I noticed this comment from goauto and thought either Ford had Bosch develop an ESP system that is quite basic (like the early systems in mercs from the 90s) and just uses abs brakes to control the slide etc or they had upgraded the LPG engine. I'm pretty sure that at FG launch the engineers said they were not upgrading the LPG engine because it would be going in 2 years (the V6 would be SVI so...).

Do you have any inside knowledge on this LPG issue phillyc??? If Ford goes to the latest system, isn't that pointless if they are retiring the engine in 18months of the upgrade happening?? If they were to 'stockpile' the I6 LPG engines they couldn't use them after June30 2010.....because of emissions regs. Unless the LPG engine would meet these standards???? Assuming some delay between the V6 coming on board and the LPG version being available (would be a big job introducing and entire new engine line up, turbos included) Ford might want to keep some I6s going.... This could work for them...interesting...

[Bossxr8]

After reading the GoAuto article with the comments from Bill Osbourne, he said that E Gas will get a version of DSC. Somehow they have made them compatable, there will be no upgraded injected LPG system.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

After reading the GoAuto article with the comments from Bill Osbourne, he said that E Gas will get a version of DSC. Somehow they have made them compatable, there will be no upgraded injected LPG system.

Well that will be good. This is the feature that cost the E Gas version the 5 star ANCAP rating cf the other models.

What's the pollution issues with e gas engines? What pollutants compared to a petrol engine?