Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[388cube_edxr8]

Lo all

I keep hearing things about Front Wheel Drive cars and how they are more fuel and space efficient and so on and so forth. Everyone who builds them (pretty much every car maker nowadays - even Ford has the godawful Taurus) seems to quietly omit the fact that Front Wheel Drive is dynamically unstable for anything larger or heavier than a Corolla, and borderline dangerous for a large car like a Magna.

I had a think about it, and I reckon I've figured it out. Why doesn't someone build a car where the FWD drivetrain is in the boot, powering the rear wheels, and the front of the car would be the cargo space? Think Toyota MR2. Or Lotus Evora. Still just as efficient and cheap and practical, but more stable.

It could even be called 'sporty' as technically the engine would be in the middle, as a FWD engine sits forward of the driven axle.

4 doors, mid mounted V6, rear wheel drive, no loss of cabin space or cargo space, or economy.

Who wouldn't be tempted by that?

Am I the only one that thinks this is a good idea?

[Yellow_Festiva]

I mentioned this once in a thread regarding the future of the Falcon and FWD debate.

If they went V6, how costly would it be to engineer a rear mounted / RWD "Global" platform? You would prob save 50-100kg from the driveline but would pose a whole lot of other problems such as the heavy engineering involved and the heavy weight biased towards the rear.

I think it is a good idea... but it will probably never happen.

[Pat Riley]

Porsche have been using engines in their rear for many moons - this is not a new idea. I once asked a well-known dealer why don't they put the engine in the rear for a family sedan and his response was that people buy family sedans so they can carry people and their belongings. You won't be able to carry the shopping with the cargo area in the front - just won't have enough space. Would people drive around with half a bike sticking out of what would otherwise be their bonnet? No

They also mentioned the unevenness of the weight of the car, and the fact that the crumple zone on a car setup this way would not be as safe. A large family sedan with bulk room at the front for storage which is largely unused, plus rear passengers and a heavy engine in the back, would make the car handle like crap too.

[Ghiadude]

No, ive often thought about it and the only problems i can foresee is that cooling is compromised(but has been over come in the past) and cargo space in the front would be not as usefull because of the sloping front end on modern cars. Theres also the fact that rear engined cars can be a bit of a hand full when driven at/past the limit of adhesion. They can tank slap like crazy! a good dsc should sort this out though.
DOABLE but unconventional....

[388cube_edxr8]

Despite the problems, I think most informed people would prefer this over a Magna.

I see plenty of applications for a cheap family sports car.

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

You will have enough space, we are not adding things to the vehicle, just moving stuff around.

Are you telling me that the entire engine bay of a Falcon is not big enough for your groceries? You must have one massive family.

It's not necessarily the width, it's the depth. Unless you have the storage area scrapping the road, you aren't going to be able to fit much in there based on the downward sloping of cars.

[DOC]

Volkswagen / Pequot from memory also rear wheel drive / motor

[388cube_edxr8]

So aside from being a large car with a boot the size of a mid size car, are there any other potential faults?

The nutty professor in me wants to build one...

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Despite the problems, I think most informed people would prefer this over a Magna.

Nothing wrong with a Magna - they are still a solid car. Below is a list of other FWD cars that are fairly large and don't fall under the same banner:

Audi A6 (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Honda Accord (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Hyundai Grandeur (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Toyota Aurion (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Toyota Camry (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Honda Accord Euro (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Hyundai Sonata (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Nissan Maxima (ALMOST SAME LENGTH AND WIDTH AS MAGNA AND FWD)

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

Nothing wrong with a Magna - they are still a solid car. Below is a list of other FWD cars that are fairly large and don't fall under the same banner:

Toyota Aurion
Toyota Camry
Audi A6
Honda Accord
Honda Accord Euro
Nissan Maxima
Hyundai Sonata
Hyundai Grandeur

All of those cars make me physically sick when I even think about them. I suspect I may have some sort of Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

All of those cars make me physically sick when I even think about them. I suspect I may have some sort of Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

Frontwheeldriveaphobia:
This illness afflicts a large proportion of Australian males and is sadly going largely untreated. It afflicts the patient with an unnerving fear of all vehicles not driven by the rear wheels. Acute sufferers might even be afraid to walk through shopping centre carparks for fear of exposure to a front wheel drive car. Symptoms can be treated with a short blast down a winding road in a ford falcon or similar and although holden commodores profess to be rear wheel drive - these should be avoided by sufferers as the commodores handling from its cheap and nasty macpherson strut front end can lead to patients being dazed confused and asking how a car with rwd can handle that bad. This disease is also related to cantgetintoanythingwithlessthanfivelitreitis and wontdriveanythingwithoutaturbothesizeofaplanetitis . The treatments of which are very similar to Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

[Windsor220]

I drove a 380 the other day. Been about 6 months since I've driven one. I remembered thinking at the time the handling and grip was quite good. You just dont realise when you drive them all the time. Need to drive other cars to compare.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Frontwheeldriveaphobia:
This illness afflicts a large proportion of Australian males and is sadly going largely untreated. It afflicts the patient with an unnerving fear of all vehicles not driven by the rear wheels. Acute sufferers might even be afraid to walk through shopping centre carparks for fear of exposure to a front wheel drive car. Symptoms can be treated with a short blast down a winding road in a ford falcon or similar and although holden commodores profess to be rear wheel drive - these should be avoided by sufferers as the commodores handling from its cheap and nasty macpherson strut front end can lead to patients being dazed confused and asking how a car with rwd can handle that bad. This disease is also related to cantgetintoanythingwithlessthanfivelitreitis and wontdriveanythingwithoutaturbothesizeofaplanetitis . The treatments of which are very similar to Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

Wow. Just... wow. Seriously, do you know me? That's exactly what I have!

[Pat Riley]

I think with the dynamics of new cars these days, the whole FWD vs RWD debate is largely void. Unless you are after a performance car which the vast majority of the population are not, you would not need to drive a RWD.

If you drive a car within the rules of the law, there's very little difference.

I know people who have bought new cars such as the Toyota Aurion and Honda Accord and assumed they were rear-wheel drive, only to find out months after owning them (from me) that they were front-wheel drive.

P.S. I think the owner of an Audi A6 would laugh at the idea of driving an ED Falcon. Seriously I have driven all of the FWD large family sedans on the market cars and there's no comparison in say an Aurion or 380, which both handle very well to your car, an ED Falcon which handles like a boat without power steering.

[388cube_edxr8]

Well that's funny because I am an ED Falcon owner and I laugh at the idea of someone buying a FWD from Audi, a car maker world famous for its AWD systems.

And my ED handles like a kart, it weighs 1500 kilos with sports suspension and tyres as wide as your chest.

Show me FWD Aurion that handles that good and Ill show you how to bend physics and the space time continuum.

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

And my ED handles like a kart, it weighs 1500 kilos with sports suspension and tyres as wide as your chest.

Show me FWD Aurion that handles that good and Ill show you how to bend physics and the space time continuum.

Do yourself a favour and have your dad drive you to a car dealership, have him drive any car, caravan, bus or truck with at least 4 wheels and power steering, and have him tell you that it drives better than an ED Falcon.

[388cube_edxr8]

Do yourself a favour and have your dad drive you to a dealership, compare an Aurion with any modern RWD car of similar price and tell me that the Aurion drives better.

[Ghiadude]

P.S. I think the owner of an Audi A6 would laugh at the idea of driving an ED Falcon. Seriously I have driven all of the FWD large family sedans on the market cars and there's no comparison in say an Aurion or 380, which both handle very well to your car, an ED Falcon which handles like a boat without power steering.

So let me get this straight - your telling a guy thats never driven an aurion etc to drive one because it handles better than a car that you yourself havent driven.....youve put his car down saying it doesnt handle and you havent even driven it. your not a very nice bloke are you?

[snappy]

I dont think rear engine falcon would work , I you want a idea of a car for the future. I seen it some where on telly no idea who's idea it is or who made it.

But bascally they had a platform That had interchanble bodies .
So say today you need a ute you drop that shell on to that platform and away you go . Next day people mover lift the ute off drom the suv/van shell on again away you go
So you coud have all these varients on one platform in your own shed . Tell me that would not be handy

[chevypower]

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

[snappy]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

actually with dsc and traction control any advantage fwd drive had in slippery conditions is gone

[Rev28K]

Layoff the large or powerful FWD's! Their powertrains make for cheap transverse mid-engined layouts.

Lotus & Bolwell use the Toyota Aurion engine and transmission (although they did have a hard time getting a manual). There was a Toyota V6 prototype of the last MR2 variant that never made it out the door. Jap specialty manufacturers have used Mazda 3 MPS's as the basis of their mid-engined specials. Ariel Atoms use transverse Civic engines. Elises & Exiges use Celica engines. There is the English company (who's name escapes me at the moment) Chris Marshes (Rocket LCC) son runs it, who use Honda transverse engines - originally B18's now K20's. And the mid-engined VW backed Artega (sp?) uses the Passat R36 V6. You can swap your Toyota based Elise engines for Audi 1.8's or Honda K20's. Pontiac had a transverse LS1 FWD V8 before they went broke that is just dieing to go in to something more exotic.

There are a lot of reasons why I don't mind largish transverse V6's & V8's hanging around.

In the right applications it makes sense (in the twisty bits of track racing my small FWD will eat a local large RWD under brakes & cornering)

[3vXT]

About the only problem i've ever had with fwd cars is a bit (ok a fair bit) of understeer when i'm pushing too hard. Its pretty lame but a hell of a lot easier for the average person to catch than oversteer.

A rear engined car is a stupid stupid idea for the general public whether it is a sports car or a family car. All that weight over the rear (especially in a relatively long car) is just as inefficient distribution wise as a front engined rear driver with the added bonus of trying to swap ends every time you try to pull up in a hurry. That may be acceptable on the track but not on the road.

A mid engined, rear driver is a little better but even neutral handling might be too much for the average idiot and who in their right mind is going to buy a family car that can only seat 2 with the engine where the back seat was. (ok maybe people on here would buy it, myself included probably, but thats not enough)

What is the point of building a dangerously unstable platform and neutering it with electronic aids when there are platforms already in use for years that can get by with minimal electronic intervention? Seriously, if you want a sports car sell your falcon and buy a sports car.

[Rev28K]

Oh and in response to your original post - packaging, cooling, getting the manual gearshift to work properly (it can be done but could Ford or Holden get it done on a tight budget?) and where are you going to put the fuel tank (up against the firewall so that weight changes b/w full or empty are minimised) and I guess no spare wheel either.

With the way that smart diffs and sports programs for dampers, springs and steering can make things like even a 2+ tonne elephant (BMW X6) tap dance some of the basic engineering seems to be being ignored these days.

Eg for years Audis have had forward slung engines (have a look at how forward an S8's or Bentley V12 sits) with long steering arms that didn't handle that well, but the application of various technologies seems to have minimised their deficencies

[Trevor 57]

Newsfalsh: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

No ******** Sherlock - LOL

[Joe5619]

Personally I'd love to see an AWD Falcon.. Just image an AWD coyte SC Falcon!! Game over, as it would be the best car on the road!!

How much fun at the lights with V8, SC, AWD & DSC??

[RRM]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

I think with the dynamics of new cars these days, the whole FWD vs RWD debate is largely void. Unless you are after a performance car which the vast majority of the population are not, you would not need to drive a RWD.

If you drive a car within the rules of the law, there's very little difference.

I know people who have bought new cars such as the Toyota Aurion and Honda Accord and assumed they were rear-wheel drive, only to find out months after owning them (from me) that they were front-wheel drive.

^^^This man makes a lot of sense. However I think the amount of power makes a huge difference with FWDs.

Second best car I've ever driven was a 2008 BA XR6 rental car I drove in the South Island. Everything about it felt right, and you could jump in it and start driving fast straight away. A much better car than the equivalent V6 Commodore.

I'm a RWD traditionalist, but the best car I've ever driven is a (FWD) CL9 Honda Euro Accord. Perfect neutral handling, no trouble at all putting its 200 HP down on the road, and a beautiful engine that loves to rev. To drive it fast you had to appreciate that it was a FWD overgrown hot-hatch, but the FWD certainly didn't slow it down and I used to bully all sorts of reps & execs in Falcodores on New Zealand's windy country roads when I was out in my bosses' Euro Accord... In this country the sort of people who drive big Aussie V6 cars don't like it when little Jappers destroy them

My dad's 1999 Accord V6 is also 200 HP, but it's a softer, quieter family cruiser not a sports saloon. Similar deal though, it just goes around any corner at any speed. That it's FWD simply does not slow you down.

HOWEVER... I disagree about the Toyota Aurion, we have one of those at work and IMHO that car shows why FWD is no good for big power. You certainly can't corner fast and power out of the bends like I could in the XR6. (Although a lot of this could be down to the car's floaty suspension.) It is good for winning drag races at the lights, but you certainly can't drive it fast on a windy road like you can an XR6.

In conclusion, in my experience modern tyres & suspension trends seem to work well up to about 200HP (Honda Accords) and produce some nice, comfortable, fast-ish road cars. But FWD does not seem as happy when you start getting up to 200 kW...

[Dave_au]

In relation to the OP, I think you will find some of the rear engine, rear wheel drive Porsches fit the description of what your looking for.

Also to the OP; I think your caught up a little bit in the marketing hype of rear wheel drive. Yes the system is superior in terms of performance, but the majority of the motoring public would not find themselves in a "driving" position where the benefits of having a RWD system outweigh front wheel drive, expect perhaps for towing.

In fact I would quantify it and say that even for an enthusiast who doesn't do track days, a front wheel drive car is sufficient for 98% of the time. It may not be quite as "fun" in the terms of illegalities such as excessive oversteer or burn-outs, but for pure driving, FWD cars today have reasonably good dynamics.

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by ken2903

About the only problem i've ever had with fwd cars is a bit (ok a fair bit) of understeer when i'm pushing too hard. Its pretty lame but a hell of a lot easier for the average person to catch than oversteer.

A rear engined car is a stupid stupid idea for the general public whether it is a sports car or a family car. All that weight over the rear (especially in a relatively long car) is just as inefficient distribution wise as a front engined rear driver with the added bonus of trying to swap ends every time you try to pull up in a hurry. That may be acceptable on the track but not on the road.

A mid engined, rear driver is a little better but even neutral handling might be too much for the average idiot and who in their right mind is going to buy a family car that can only seat 2 with the engine where the back seat was. (ok maybe people on here would buy it, myself included probably, but thats not enough)

What is the point of building a dangerously unstable platform and neutering it with electronic aids when there are platforms already in use for years that can get by with minimal electronic intervention? Seriously, if you want a sports car sell your falcon and buy a sports car.

Well said

[bjr22n_]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

In relation to the OP, I think you will find some of the rear engine, rear wheel drive Porsches fit the description of what your looking for.

Also to the OP; I think your caught up a little bit in the marketing hype of rear wheel drive. Yes the system is superior in terms of performance, but the majority of the motoring public would not find themselves in a "driving" position where the benefits of having a RWD system outweigh front wheel drive, expect perhaps for towing.

In fact I would quantify it and say that even for an enthusiast who doesn't do track days, a front wheel drive car is sufficient for 98% of the time. It may not be quite as "fun" in the terms of illegalities such as excessive oversteer or burn-outs, but for pure driving, FWD cars today have reasonably good dynamics.

Well said Dave_au