Australian 'Cruiser, power by Ford

JG34JA · 11-12-2010, 11:39 PM

It has always been puzzling that the Land Rover, and then LandCruiser dominated this country in rural areas and the bush and no Australian competitor emerged to even challenge them. After all, they are utilitarian, built tough, unsophisticated and reliable - all monikers that have been used on Australian passenger cars.

So why has no one connected the dots, and produced a mass produced Australian 4x4 ute/wagon with real "bushability"? And I don't mean soft roader.

Is it business case? Could it supplement a current business case? Is it crash safety regulations that demand Aussie produced cars be one level and allow imports to be less safe? Consumer tastes denying the ROI? Is the competition too strong? Has the ship sailed, long ago?

As an example, we could take the 4.0 inline six in petrol and gas, the 2.7TD, 6 speed auto and 6 speed manual and marry these combos to transfer case, two live axles (or one with a front IFS), part or full time 4wd, a full chassis and simple body work. We could build it simply, and build it tough to last. The suspension could be made supple, the angles of approach, departure and ramp-over could be competitive, diff lockers could be used, and Australians can certainly engineer for both safety and tune the vehicles to this country better than anyone else.

Love to hear thoughts on why there never was/will be (?) an Aussie made "Cruiser" on this continent, or why there should be!

f1tzy · 11-12-2010, 11:41 PM

Most people who buy cruisers or patrols would never buy anything else purely due to the branding

Ohio XB · 12-12-2010, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1tzy

Most people who buy cruisers or patrols would never buy anything else purely due to the branding

Toyota learned this lesson the hard way in the US. They built a brand new plant in Texas to build the full-sized Tundra pick-up truck to compete with the F-150, Chevy Silverado, and Dodge Ram. The plant has a 200,000 unit capacity and Toyota also transformed half of another plant to be able to build an additional 100,000 units per year. What they underestimated was "brand loyalty."

Whether a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge truck owner, they are very loyal to their brands. It's why they have owned several of that truck brand's vehicles. It fits them, has got them through what they have needed from the truck, and represent dependability and experience.

Though Toyota, at the time, had the reputation of building the highest quality cars they were not thought of as "truck masters." They were decades behind the Big3 in full sized truck experience.

As a result, Toyota barely sells enough Tundras to keep the half of a plant that they converted to build the Tundra running, without regard to the new plant needing to build any at all. For 2010, Toyota has sold 83,296 Tundras through November. They will not sell 100,000 this year. Compare that to the F-series truck from Ford with year to date sales of 473,461 trucks.

Toyota vastly underestimated the loyalty of truck owners. Couple that with the short comings of their truck (excessive frame flex, tailgate weakness, etc.) and they only fill a niche for those who feel a Toyota represents the best in quality and the truck they use is not used too harshly. It's kind of a status symbol for them.

Note this: In the commercials Toyota was running a couple years ago, showing their truck executing all kinds of dramatic demonstrations on elaborately built sets (teeter, incline, etc.) all of the mechanisms were built by contractors which were still on site, and all of the trucks are moved far away from the sets because the contractors who built these sets do not drive Toyota trucks.

I would imagine this is the same reason for the lack of competition for Land Rover's vehicles in Oz. Their owners are loyal and will not consider an "interloper."

Steve

chevypower · 12-12-2010, 02:21 AM

love the idea, we need more true 4x4s on the market. Sadly, the market is all about soft off-roaders now. An alternative to the Jeep Wrangler would be good. Ford has the Land Rover off-road technology. I would like to see a 4x4 with a fully boxed frame, Dana axles with Detroit lockers, 6 speed manual with 8 speed auto option. Maybe even use the 4.4L V8 diesel. I think if they do a great job like this, you could draw people from other brands. Just keep doing what Ford is doing with the EcoBoost F150. Prove to people why your new product is so much better. Eventually the misconceptions will go away if it really is a better product.

Road_Warrior · 12-12-2010, 02:39 AM

For traditional passenger car manufacturers like Ford and Holden, delving into the 4x4 market (themselves, as in doing the R&D and manufacturing) is hardly worth it for the numbers they'd sell - the capital outlay would take years to recoup. Far easier for them to dip into the corporate global showroom and offer a vehicle where the hard work has already been done. Oh wait a minute - that's what they did.

wrongwaynorris · 12-12-2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1tzy

Most people who buy cruisers or patrols would never buy anything else purely due to the branding

Proving a fool and his money are easily parted .

Ben73 · 12-12-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

love the idea, we need more true 4x4s on the market. Sadly, the market is all about soft off-roaders now. An alternative to the Jeep Wrangler would be good.

Jeep is possibly making a Ute version of the Wrangler.

Jeeps are my favorite 4x4's but this ute is just ugly.

ZA-289 · 12-12-2010, 09:53 PM

Brad loyalty is a big thing, this is why the poms but land rovers and the yanks buy jeeps.

Both those vehicles are avaliable in OZ + cruiser and patrol.

Which ones sell the most? Cruiser and Patrol... Because we have no brand loyalty to either Land rover, jeep, nissan or toyota. We pick the best car.

Nissan and Toyota ARE the best. I douby anything ford or holden could produce would be better than a Turbo Diesel Cruiser or Patrol.

**Polyal** · 12-12-2010, 10:00 PM

Id settle for the SVT Raptor...now that is a 4x4

cheek · 12-12-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZA-289

Brad loyalty is a big thing, this is why the poms but land rovers and the yanks buy jeeps.

Both those vehicles are avaliable in OZ + cruiser and patrol.

Which ones sell the most? Cruiser and Patrol... Because we have no brand loyalty to either Land rover, jeep, nissan or toyota. We pick the best car.

Nissan and Toyota ARE the best. I douby anything ford or holden could produce would be better than a Turbo Diesel Cruiser or Patrol.

Its true. I somehow think farmer joe would not give two hoots about the brand of work horse he's using, as long as it does the job..
I wish ford made a landcruiser ute type vehicle but even if they did, their dealerships would let them down.
There is a reason toyota is the highest selling car maker in aus!

FPV8U · 12-12-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Id settle for the SVT Raptor...now that is a 4x4

...

Mark^^ · 12-12-2010, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

Jeep is possibly making a Ute version of the Wrangler.

Jeeps are my favorite 4x4's but this ute is just ugly.

Reminds me of my old J10, shame it was never a challenge to Toyota in the early 80’s, was an awesome truck and I continue regretting selling it. Jeeps aren’t made to be pretty, ugly is required.

388cube_edxr8 · 13-12-2010, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

Jeep is possibly making a Ute version of the Wrangler.

Jeeps are my favorite 4x4's but this ute is just ugly.

I can spot 2 things wrong with that Jeep already. First of all, a 4x4 does not need chrome wheels.

Second, the spare tyre is on the left. I think we can all agree that there is at least a 50% chance that you will get a puncture on the right hand side of the car. So if you have to pull over to change the tyre, you have to walk between your car and and moving traffic to get the spare wheel off, even if the flat is on the other side of the car (US drive on the right, remember).

Well done Jeep.

snappy · 13-12-2010, 01:39 AM

I dont actually mind that jeep but i always had a soft spot for sqaure cars.

atec77 · 13-12-2010, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I can spot 2 things wrong with that Jeep already. First of all, a 4x4 does not need chrome wheels.

Second, the spare tyre is on the left. I think we can all agree that there is at least a 50% chance that you will get a puncture on the right hand side of the car. So if you have to pull over to change the tyre, you have to walk between your car and and moving traffic to get the spare wheel off, even if the flat is on the other side of the car (US drive on the right, remember).

Well done Jeep.

Two things , the chrome doesn't stop the wheel being useful and you might be surprised to find generally it is a better finish for the intended purpose than some soft easily damaged paint , also if I were taking a wheel off a car I prefer to have it between me and the traffic which is where it is on my Bronco

Ben73 · 13-12-2010, 09:14 AM

I drive brand new, and the previous model Toyota Prados for work, and I must say the oldest one with 250,000kms+ still runs fantastic, never misses a beat, starts straightaway each time.

These Prados have be absolutely THRASHED weekly for 3 years/250,000kms and still run perfect.
Regular services every 10,000kms, and all parts have been replaced when necessary. I would recommend a Toyota Prado to anyone who wanted a reliable 4x4.

The only problem I had was getting a flat tyre when driving on ballast and through water up to 2 foot deep, at speed from 40-70km/h

302 XC · 13-12-2010, 10:43 AM

99% of cow cockies drive cruiser utes
Theres alot of these around
For the rest most that know whats what will either buy a cruiser or patrol

I have a few fords and a few patrols
Ford would have offer something real good to get me to be rid of the patrols
Off road ability,power
Id step upto a 7.3 Turbo diesel F Truck

As mentioned above ,most are soft roaders nowadays

**Raptor** · 13-12-2010, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG34JA

.....
Love to hear thoughts on why there never was/will be (?) an Aussie made "Cruiser" on this continent, or why there should be!

You've never heard of OKA then? http://www.oka.com.au

Their business case told them not to pursue the urban/retail market but instead go after the more hard core mine/tourist operator.

Quote:

Welcome to OKA, home of the iconic Australian-made 4x4 vehicles that are renowned for their outstanding performance in extreme conditions, including mine sites and the outback.

Built for a variety of purposes, the OKA range includes single and multi-cab utility vehicles to custom models like campers, tour buses and emergency service vehicles....

Poetic Justice · 13-12-2010, 01:41 PM

The amount of R&D that goes into these vehicles is phenominal. So if GM or Ford were to do it, they would need to be doing it on a global level. Toyota's products (Prado and Landcruiser 70 & 200) are developed for the whole world therefore they can justify the development costs.

In Australia's current market though, you can't really overly compare Patrol to Landcruiser. Landcruiser is currently streets ahead of it in terms of ability and modernisation. The Patrol is very dated.

As for the spare wheel on the Jeep, wouldn't it make sense to have the spare wheel sitting on the side that is in fact not on the traffic side of the vehicle? Much the same reason as to why most vehicles have their fuel filler cap on the passenger side these days.

Road_Warrior · 13-12-2010, 02:04 PM

I think the spare wheel on that Jeep would fall foul of ADR's as well...

AWD Chaser · 13-12-2010, 06:17 PM

Do you mean like the Holden Jackaroo? (or the HSV Jackaroo for that)?

**TUF_302** · 13-12-2010, 06:39 PM

I own a GU Patrol and the main reason for that is the low maintenance, reliability and finish of a Jap 4wd, Cruisers, Patrols, Hilux's and Navara's sell well for one reason, they do the job they were made to do well! the only Ford 4x4 I'd consider is a Ranger

chevypower · 13-12-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZA-289

Nissan and Toyota ARE the best. I douby anything ford or holden could produce would be better than a Turbo Diesel Cruiser or Patrol.

I don't know whether to laugh or vomit. Toyotas are the most overrated mediocre pieces of crap I have ever driven. LC200 = large soft roader. LC70 series = just an old fashioned, over-priced piece of crap, that has a little more off-road capability than a LC200. Yes, I have driven them. I have been impressed at the off-road ability of Range Rovers, Discoveries, and the new Grand Cherokee, especially considering how well balanced they are on-road. Purely based on off-road performance from a stock 4x4 at a decent price, it's hard to go past a Wrangler Rubicon.

Ben73 · 13-12-2010, 07:22 PM

Land Cruisers and Patrols are too big to be great offroaders.

wrongwaynorris · 13-12-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

I don't know whether to laugh or vomit. Toyotas are the most overrated mediocre pieces of crap I have ever driven. LC200 = large soft roader. LC70 series = just an old fashioned, over-priced piece of crap, that has a little more off-road capability than a LC200. Yes, I have driven them. I have been impressed at the off-road ability of Range Rovers, Discoveries, and the new Grand Cherokee, especially considering how well balanced they are on-road. Purely based on off-road performance from a stock 4x4 at a decent price, it's hard to go past a Wrangler Rubicon.

Exactly and to this day the ONLY vehicle that has ever traversed the entire length of the Darian Gap is a Range Rover , Cruisers and Patrols are mere wanna be pretenders . Back in the 70's Toyota and Patrol owners ridiculed the Range Rover yet both Toyota and Nissan have subsequently both tried their damndest to copy it . Immitation is the kindest form of flattery .

outback_ute · 14-12-2010, 05:37 PM

When Mitsubishi were in the doldrums I thought they would have been better off designing and building the Pajero here, to use the local engineering expertise and also take advantage of the Aust. outback image for exports.

Brazen · 14-12-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

When Mitsubishi were in the doldrums I thought they would have been better off designing and building the Pajero here, to use the local engineering expertise and also take advantage of the Aust. outback image for exports.

That was actually discussed by Mistsubishi! Australia is one of Pajeros biggest markets in the world.

To answer the OP, yes I think Australia would do very well. Look at Ford AU, the Ranger will be the first proper 4wd they have engineered, yet I am betting it will thrash the pants off Nissans and Toyotas in nearly every criteria. Its a shame its not going to be built here, as I could really see a 4wd being Australian being a big selling point, more than it is for passenger cars.

TRUBLU4DS · 14-12-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

You've never heard of OKA then? http://www.oka.com.au

Their business case told them not to pursue the urban/retail market but instead go after the more hard core mine/tourist operator.

I worked at OKA, they were way to heavy over the front axle. From memory i think 3 were built for an Arab Sheik with TPI 350 Chev power, they were fun.

JG34JA · 14-12-2010, 06:55 PM

Hey everyone thank you for the great posts.

I never thought I'd start a thread and get such responses, cheers.

Raptor, yes I remember OKA's, they were made in Ossy Park(?) in Perth I think. I don't consider them anything like a Cruiser, they are more like an 11 seat bus in size - should have mentioned them in the OP. My mates did think they were the ultimate travel beasts though! As you quite rightly said, their focus is different.

In the same vein as a 'Cruiser, there was the XY 4x4 ute, produced here and dying of ADR regulations. Reborn in echo as the RTV a handy and missed niche in the market. Soon Ford has an Aussie designed Ranger in the dual/single cab ute category.

So far many posts have mentioned reliability, R&D cost and brand loyalty as factors. But folks, isn't brand loyalty earned? The hard yards done by the FJ/BJ40 family, cemented by the 60 and 70 series, consolidated by the 80 series hold Toyota in great stead now, despite more recent criticism of their 4x4 products. For my experience, a 60 wagon took us around Australia reliably and in my mind "earned" its brand's reputation. Any one or any product worthy can earn a good reputation, no matter who builds it.

There is nothing to say that a concerted effort, assuming Howard Hughes style funding and resolve by Australians could not produce a domestic equivalent of the FJ40, that in 40 years time would see its descendants rule the market. All it takes is the will. That's why Toyota is on top now.

irish2 · 14-12-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Second, the spare tyre is on the left. I think we can all agree that there is at least a 50% chance that you will get a puncture on the right hand side of the car. So if you have to pull over to change the tyre, you have to walk between your car and and moving traffic to get the spare wheel off, even if the flat is on the other side of the car (US drive on the right, remember).

Well done Jeep.

You don't pull over to change a tyre? Last time I looked we drive on the left hand side of the road in a right hand drive car.