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#1 | ||
FG Falcon fan
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canberra, ACT
Posts: 913
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From enquiries Ive made I believe a carbon fiber bonnet can shave 15kg off a Falcon compared to the factory steel one. In the 1980s a carbon fiber hood was a factory option. Is there any reason Ford couldnt offer this on the XR range as an option?
Also, the bootlid, does this really need to be steel? Its quite a bit of metal, surely this could be made of something lighter. Is anyone a guru on this stuff and the cost of making them? ![]() |
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#2 | ||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Ummm....CF is a bit to expensive to just throw on a production family sedan...
Greater luck be had with Aluminum...BMW's use plastic guards on the X-series...
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,901
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I remember reading something about this somewhere a while back. IIRC it has something to do with longevity and maybe even recyclability.
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#4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,371
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#5 | ||
Where to next??
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,893
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More costly to produce, harder to repair... the material also displays different characteristics to metal so extra engineering needs to be done to accommodate....
Was CF really an option in the 80's?? Perhaps you're thinking fibre glass?? |
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#6 | ||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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Cabonfibre parts fitted to the front end like a bonnet would require crash testing, and that costs millions.
Its also expensive and time consuming to manufacture. There's a reason why its usually only high end supercars that use CF. |
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#7 | |||
FG Falcon fan
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canberra, ACT
Posts: 913
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#8 | ||
King of the Fairy's.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CeeeeeTown.
Posts: 5,093
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Lots of issues here, its not as straightforward as just swapping panels over.
Costs, Safety, strength, reliability, durability, quality, customer expectations, toolings, etc. Sooner or later it wouldn't suprise me if we went to composite panels, but right now would you go out and spend $40-50K on a Falcon with a plastic boot?
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#9 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,028
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Carbon fibre also doesn't bend or dint, I'm fairly sure it shatters into a million pieces, might not be too good for pedestrian safety. Maybe they should look into Aluminium instead?
Or even plastics, you can do some amazing stuff in plastic. |
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#10 | |||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Quote:
Plastic composites are finding there way in to cars...the VE has a GRP (glass fiber reinforced plastic) boot floor and radiator support.
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#11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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#12 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ipswich QLD
Posts: 4,697
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i think plastic wouldve been a shoe in for some body parts/sheets for car shells. I know bmw and even the nissan xtrail has flexible front quarter gaurds that pop in and out but weigh zilch...
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#13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,923
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Quote:
Only the previous shape Xtrail has plastic guards, current one went back to steel. Problem with them is its very hard to get paint to match on both steel and plastic panels, and cant be painted at the same time in the factory. Front guards a pretty light even in steel. Youd be only saving grams, not kgs.
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. Last edited by XR Martin; 11-02-2012 at 01:09 AM. |
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#14 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 307
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There is technology out there to mass produce carbon fibre parts but the cost to do it is huge.
Fibreglass could be a good middle ground if it didnt shatter on impact. The best we can hope for on the local cars is more use of plastic and aluminium to reduce weight |
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#15 | ||
You can call me Chris
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 712
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Carbon fibre also ends up as sharp debris... Great to be lying on the road to create puncture after puncture.
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'06 LS Focus Hatch -2 1/4" Lukey Exhaust -RDA Slotted discs/Greenstuff pads -Rear Whiteline swaybay -Lenso 18's w/Kumho rubber -Tinted Windows |
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#16 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: perth w.a
Posts: 250
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my 06 wrx has an aluminium bonnet as standard from the factory.im not sure what else is ali on it.boot lid and bonnet would be the way to go on any performance orientated car.
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december 2010 fg gs 315 ute Tuned by Monsta Torque 395.2 KW 610 NM 3.07 diff ratio (changed from original 3.73) 6 spot brembo's on the front 3 inch manta cat back exhaust with X piece 6 speed manual k & n air filter rear calipers painted red debadged stripes etc removed |
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#17 | ||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Couple of Misconceptions here...
Carbon fiber has good crash properties and can absorb impact without 'splintering into pieces'. This is achieved though different layers of weave and resin mixtures to each particular component. Using Epoxy based resins makes CF quite flexible. If you look look up the 787 dreamliner, you'll see a good demonstration of the flexibility of CF. The 787 is made almost from CFRP, and there are quite a few videos of the wings flexing as they gain lift. CF has already made its way into some more expensive Road cars...the BMW M3 has a CF roof, the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren features a full carbon fiber body. So any theorys about CF not being crash worthy are redundant. Its still a cost/implementation thing.
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#18 | |||
moderator ford coupe club
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,640
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#19 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Having seen the results of a Corvette that was comprehensively stuffed after hitting a supposedly "break off at the ground" post some years back, and considering the number of big roos out here, I'll take steel, thank you...
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#20 | |||
YE-US! Wait. I don't know
Join Date: May 2010
Location: in the turkey...
Posts: 940
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Quote:
The actual layup of carbon fibre is a pain the a, and needs people who know what they are doing, and is a laborious process that has a lot of safety implications as well. AS for composite plastics, they are making their way into vehicles, however the decent ones can be expensive (or were when we were looking at them a couple of years ago at uni, no doubt it's changed, a lot), and so again, unfeasible. It all comes down to cost of raw materials, ease of manufacture, required skills for manufacture, and cost of implementation.
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"Well. Apparently you're looking for a lion-snake named Harriet." Daily: '06 BF XL Ute,Shockwave Blue, Column Shift, eGas BEAST.
Gone: 77 HZ panel van, 253, column. The Weekender: '06 BF Pursuit, Toxic, lumpy af |
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#21 | ||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Some more interesting facts...
The Astra since the TS has had plastic lower control links on the front, and plastic has also been used to create engine blocks in the past. Further evidence of carbon fibers flexibility is its use as springs for amputee's, where a spring takes the place of the foot. F1 cars are now starting to use carbon fiber for suspension links... And, fiberglass not flexible? Bob Kotmel's Ch9 camaro (famous for trying to finish bathurst on its roof) featured Fiberglass leaf springs... ...and the corvette? If balsawood floors wern't crazy enough...corvette features a fiberglass monoleaf IRS rear.
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#22 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,481
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there are more plastic parts in cars than you would think.
e.g.in my '06 focus some parts I know of that are plastic are the rad support, front & rear bar, all of the lights, cam cover, inlet manifold |
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#23 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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The other thing with carbon fiber is that there's no such thing as "cheap" carbon fiber...there appears to be good, and bad, with no in between. I've known guys with motorbikes putting on carbon front and rear hugger guards made of CF...the good ones, smal as they are, cost hundreds, but stay beautiful and glossy and deep for years...the cheap ones last maybe a year in the Australian sun before going grey and starting to chip at the edges...
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#24 | ||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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Most of the carbon bonnets that you see have a construction of a single carbonfiber sheet over a fiberglass base...purely cosmetic, and use polyester resin (basically whats used in fiberglass). This is why they crack, deleminate and chip easy.
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#25 | |||
FG Falcon fan
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canberra, ACT
Posts: 913
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Quote:
If the bootlid looked okay they could make it from high-tech super light frozen cheese for all I care. Shave them kilos i say! ![]() |
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#26 | ||
GT-P With An Ego
![]() ![]() Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canberra
Posts: 20,563
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The idea that carbon fibre splinters, comes from F1, where they're making it to be as light as possible, this involves, using as little material as possible, and laying it up in only the directions needed for the loads it'll see in regular use. Apply a load in a direction it's not built for and it's weak as wet cardboard, go with the design, and they hold up the 1,000kg+ of down force a modern F1 can generate.
CF used in planes and cars, is built with utmost safety and longevity in mind, they don't splinter, they break more like safety glass, the resin fractures while the fibres hold it altogether.
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1998 DL LTD in Sparkling Burgundy, daily, mild 5.0L, high end stereo, slow'n'thirsty - 138.8rwkw. 2006 BF GT-P in Ego, 5.8L all alloy, Kenne Bell 2.8HLC, Nizpro Stage 2 ZF - 440rwkw. 2008 SY F6X in Silhouette, Ford Performance Club of ACT |
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#27 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 105
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Has anyone heard of e2 this is a web site and tv series that talks about green technology. One particular episode talks about transport technologies, and they speak of a organization ( which i think was apart of a university) that came up with a way to use cheap carbon fibre to make car bodies. These vehicles out performed steel based cars in crash test. The weight was 40% of a steel car body and was 60% of the cost to manufacture. Why don't car companies use carbon fibre then? Because there is a whole industry surrounding the use of steel in vehicle manufacture suppliers etc. who are making money and employ people, this is not a conspiracy theory it is fact. Carbon fibre would require vehicle manufactures throwing out all the design research etc in solved in steel body construction, there is just too much money invested in the use of steel in vehicles. But imagine a Falcon weighing 800-1000kg at 60% of the cost, the technology is there we just won't see it until some one takes the risk.
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#28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,312
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Quote:
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My ride: 2007 Falcon Ute BF XR8 Orange, MTO. |
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#29 | |||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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Quote:
![]() ![]() Carbon fibre is extremely expensive and time consuming to make, it would be damn hard for manufacturers to build it in large quantities and it takes so long to do. Thats where steel is easy, takes a couple of seconds to punch out a panel, carbonfibre would take days. People like Deakin Uni's research people are trying to find ways to make carbon fibre quick and easy to make. Only then will it replace steel in a standard car, not a high end sportcar that sells for hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will still be a long while before we see it trickle down to cheap cars built in mass numbers. |
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