5 young men killed in high speed crash.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by hemank

I think laws should be alot tougher for repeat offenders, supposdly the driver of that vehicle was done for speeding before. Sure we got the hoon legislation but how about introduce something like, cancel the repeat offenders licence. They would then need to start all over again, doing their Ls and extra driving hours. When it comes to the Ps test the driving assesor should have information on their previous driving record and thus be very strict when he or she is doing their test again.

If the media reports are correct, (disclaimer I too have a problem with sensationalised stories by media choice), then this individual had already been previously booked for "speeding" and was now due in court for failing to comply with previous penalties (namely community work duties), and was driving an unregistered car (in S.A. at the very least, this means no third party insurance so who will the 15 y-o girl sue, the driver is dead. Not sure about every other state) and was willing to take 6 passengers (5 seat belts only available) for a ride of their lives (or should I say deaths).

What possible law could they have in place to stop this mentality???? My gut feel is if the same harsher laws that you suggest were in place, then this would not have stopped this either.

Nobody wants to trivialise the enormity of this shocking occurrence but real lessons need to be learnt. Not just more knee jerk reactions made by the powers to be that just alienate these individuals even more to the point of just flaunting these even tougher laws to the extreme because it is too hard for then to do, it is just plain cool to ignore them. You will just end up with more unregistered and unlicensed drivers on the road instead.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Why do police cars need to go faster than 120? They ‘call off’ chases at those speeds anyway.

Police vehicles aren't just involved in high speed pursuits. There's any number of reasons why you would want a police vehicle to be able to exceed 120kph.

Originally Posted by LTDHO

If speed kills, why do we need vehicles that can carry us at 200kph?

Why do you need 361kw in your vehicle?

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Why do police cars need to go faster than 120? They ‘call off’ chases at those speeds anyway.

Thats what theyre SUPPOSED to do. I have witnessed the opposite on many occasions

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Why do police cars need to go faster than 120? They ‘call off’ chases at those speeds anyway.

What about the police car that's taking a gunshot victim to hospital (because the ambulance can't get to the scene in time as it's speed limited to 120kph) - but the victim dies because the police car can't get to the hospital in time, as it's restricted to 120kph...

What about the hostage situation where a person is killed because the police who are already there are waiting for the hostage negotiator, but he couldn't get there in time because the car is restricted to 120kph...

What about the car crash where an occupant is trapped inside, the fuel tank ruptures and the occupant dies because the fire engine / police / ambos couldn't get there in time because they're restricted to 120kph...

What about the mother who's gone into labour early, gives birth at home but the baby dies because the emergency services couldn't get there in time as their cars are restricted to 120kph....

Yes I know they're a bit out there, and yes I've included other emergency services in the same topic.....but I believe my points are valid.

Anyways, back on topic...

[xbcool]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

I am sure as a parent even at 2am I would rather get a call asking to be picked up from anywhere than a police knock at 5am saying we are sorry for your loss.


Such a tragedy and waste of our youth.

as a father of teenagers I'm with you on on this one

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by merlin

I agree with the general consensus that not much could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

However I do think that more highway patrol cars both unmarked and marked are needed. By all reports the idiot was seen zooming in and out of traffic for some time beforehand - if there had actually been a cop car patrolling he may have been stopped (this is not a critisim of the police but of the funding they recieve). I don't think this particular idiot would have run - he wasn't a hardened criminal - just a speeding P plater. The police can't be everywhere at once but increasing police numbers will see it more likley that these people are intercepted before an incident like this occurs.

More Highway patrol cars is a good start but i would like to see more done like going for another license to get off your P's.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It doesn't matter a stuff what size, type, make, model or engine size the subject vehicle has or had. If the person in control of the said vehicle is driving in an irresponsible manner, the same recipe for disaster exists regardless.

I do a little bit of driving/riding instructing on the side, more for friends and family than anything, but the thing I emphasise the most is risk management. Drivers (or riders) don't seem to classify themselves as a risk factor that needs to be managed and I think this is one of the most overlooked aspects of driver training.

Excellent post. I remember when my younger sister got her licence. With myself on opens, i was able to sit in the left seat as she got her hours up. It was very revealling because although she was a very conservative driver (still is) it was obvious that some simple instruction would go a long way RE risk management and 'assessment' of a situation. My father has already taught her how to physically 'drive' a car, but he left it up to me (which i hope implies he trusts my driving) to teach his daugther the finer points RE atcual motoring. THings like adjusting for wet conditions, traffic, idiots in the lane next to you, the car you are driving (pretty important this one....).

To this day i woud say my sister is the most attentive 20year old p plate drive i've ever seen. Always paying attention (except when checking her hair when stopped at traffic lights..... ) and i woudl say lightyears more safe on the road then many of her friends....

I dont' want to get too off topic but while accidents like this are seen as classic 'p plate deaths' i think inattention (which studies have proven is the most common factor in road deaths) kills and maims people of all ages. As lofite pointed out in an earlier post, every time you turn the key and go out on the road you take a risk. You control a 1.5-3 tonne weapon that is capable of unimanginable destruction. This is not sufficiently appreicated by drivers of all ages....

[exactly]

trained driving instructor i am not .im old school with old believes .get a paddic a car an learn learn learn. and dont play on the road you get squiched

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Police vehicles aren't just involved in high speed pursuits. There's any number of reasons why you would want a police vehicle to be able to exceed 120kph.

So you are saying speed doesn't kill?

Originally Posted by Rodp

Why do you need 361kw in your vehicle?

My car is heavy not fast. Motor was built to make only 300 for the 'dyno phase' I was going through at the time.

[merlin]

So was the girl who survived the one who wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Likley she was thrown from the wreck?

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by exactly

you wrote it dave
Do you think the devastation would have been any less if all 6 of them were squashed into a proton, and it hit the tree at only 120kmh????
the answer to this yes

example of any logic clearly going out the window.

the active/passive safety features of a vehicle have more of an impact as to who survives an accident and who dosent, not the cylinder count you muppit. :

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by ltd

exactly, there are too many differing factors to consider before determining the ultimate number of casualties between a falcon and a proton at various speeds. Yes, the mass of the vehicle multiplied by the speed was the determining force, but then you have to break down the collision with the tree and determine the structural strength of both cars and the various critical deformation and failure points, the lateral movement of the tree, the cross sectional area of the tyres and the condition to determine adhesion, the vertical acceleration of the vehicle and the aforementioned tyres regarding adhesive loading; and a whole bunch of other factors before determining the outcome. As a general rule though, a proton is not built to withstand side impacts at all and has fared rather poorly in comparitive crash tests. The falcon on the other hand was designed to give better side intrusion protection although the force of the accident has obviously exceeded the maximum loading for the car, and the structure resultantly failed.

If I were to have an opinion, if a falcon does that at 140km/h then you'd only need to do about 90km/h in a Proton for the same result.

very true ltd. its very hard to make this comparison. One thing is fo rsure though, if you go sideways into a (largely) imovalble object at anythin above 60km/h....its lights out pretty much. This includes cars a hell of alot more modern than a proton..... This is the crash test footage froma proton jumbuck (basicaly a small ute version of a proton satria small car) where i recently scored a lowly 1star!!! This if offset frontal impact at 64km/h (less than half the speed talked about here) into a DEFORMABLE BARRIER. So the nose of the car including engine/gearbox etc. to help shield the occupants...not so lucky side on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ltl5Ij1sg

Considering that a mate of mine at uni had a proton satria and it is an often chose car for young p plate drivers i think that is a pretty good example....

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

This is the crash test footage froma proton jumbuck (basicaly a small ute version of a proton satria small car) where i recently scored a lowly 1star!!! This if offset frontal impact at 64km/h (less than half the speed talked about here) into a DEFORMABLE BARRIER. So the nose of the car including engine/gearbox etc. to help shield the occupants...not so lucky side on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ltl5Ij1sg

That is just plain scary.

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by merlin

So was the girl who survived the one who wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Likley she was thrown from the wreck?

She wasn't thrown, the reports say when the ambos arrived, she was still inside, with 2 deceased passengers actually on top of her. It took emergency services workers 90 minutes to cut her free from the wreckage...

[exactly]

Originally Posted by dave93761

That is just plain scary.

did you ever fix your miss fire prob

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by merlin

So was the girl who survived the one who wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Likley she was thrown from the wreck?

I heard that her brother which was in the car aswell somehow put his body on the line to protect her.A brave act if true saved his sisters life.

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by exactly

did you ever fix your miss fire prob

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...=1#post3016342

[kyro_02]

I think this accident, along with drivers caught after this incident (in the news).. I don't believe any amount of knee-jerk laws will stop people from wiping them and their friends/relatives out...

Speed limiting cars? then the police are out of a job
speed limit cars to 100kph ...and i'm sure you'll see just as much carnage from people trying to overtake trucks etc.

If the sign says 100kph, and you wanting to overtake a truck doing 90-95kph, with a capped speedo(reminds me, capped internet.. sigh!) then you're going to run into problems, like another car!

I know 90% of the time I overtake a vehicle I need to exceed the limit, but not by much, and I know majority of us have done it.


*The government need to support driver training programs ! even a stint out on the track for the day, you do feel a lot more confident in your driving, and cars ability, it's not about supporting crazy driving on the road, but instances like this, if this P plater had that bit of extra 'Driver Training' this may not have happened, regardless if he did the wrong thing or not. - you get caught at some stage !

The vicroads driver test is so stupid, they may as well give out the licenses once you've done the first dodgy test (computer test!) but they need to look like they're doing something .. grrr!

[left]

Originally Posted by Bobman

From The Age:



That adds another scenario to the story. If anyone has been chased by a mob in another car, you can understand how the adrenaline pumps through. I was chased once just for beeping at a car in front of me that didn't move when the lights were green. Almost killed myself in the process and the car only drove away when I turned into a police station car park.

I give this claim zero weight. And really who cares anyway? If they were at a party in Ivanhoe all they need do is drive to Heidelberg's 24 hour station if in fear for their lives. At the end of the day you're in a car so there's little likelihood you're going to get pulled out and clubbed to death. Lock your doors and drive to the cops.

Ironic: they hit the tree no more than 500 metres from another 24 hour station but methinks they weren't racing to get there rather they were racing for the fun of it.

EDIT: not sure why the article link isn't working but you know what I am referring to

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kyro_02

Speed limiting cars? then the police are out of a job
speed limit cars to 100kph ...and i'm sure you'll see just as much carnage from people trying to overtake trucks etc.

If the sign says 100kph, and you wanting to overtake a truck doing 90-95kph, with a capped speedo(reminds me, capped internet.. sigh!) then you're going to run into problems, like another car!

I know 90% of the time I overtake a vehicle I need to exceed the limit, but not by much, and I know majority of us have done it.

Im sure if you asked the attending officers if they'd have prefer to be at Donut King the answer would be yes.
I know theres jobs i'd rather be doing than scraping some idiot off the landscape.

I agree with your points on overtaking etc. but regardless of the excuse it is an offence to exceed the speed limit even whilst overtaking.
I know plenty of people who have been done 10-15k over the limit whilst overtaking trucks etc.
If trucks are speed limited to 100k then 115-120 in 110k zone should be ample, unless your taking un necessary risks.

This is why i suggested a zone control, so the most this vehicle could do in the 80k zone is 90k, this would still be potentially fatal but not to the extent of which we have here.

[UNR8D]

why does everyone need their hand held... I thought we had brains for a reason, yes some have less than others but why for 1% of the population does everyone else need to be dumbed down?

save urself from yourself mentality HAS to stop.

this is going to sound callus but I don’t care, people will take stupid risks, if they are moronic enough to do it in an area where they have no second option to pull out, or have enough run off when things go pear shaped then so be it... nature has always had a way of culling off the weak if we didn’t the world population would be way to much for everyone to survive, if they don’t get their thrills from a car they will elsewhere, jetski/bike/roadbike/dirtbike 1000000 other ways of going fast enough to kill yourself, for some its the challenge of the risk, others its just immaturity and many other factors but fact is YOUR NOT GOING TO STOP it from happening... end result is that he wasn’t in control, he took a risk that didn’t pay off... sad fact is that he took others with him... tragedy yes, avoidable yes... but that’s life.. and life is very unfair at times.

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by exactly

my condolences to the families first of all. as a father of two beutifull girls one of 10 the other of 15 i two am a concerned father as they will soon be sitting behind a steering wheel or in a car as a passenger. i only hope that the father who allowed his son to buy an xr6 as his first car has now relised that he wasnt right to do so .or the bank that said yes to the finance are now seeing as well or the garintor for the loan ?????????????? your all have to answer for the stupidity of loose of these young lives . 4 cyl non turbo non supercharged non modiffed cars for p plates full stop no ifs no buts they cant drive your f%^$ing xr6 xr8 ss 4ltr what ever it might be .i have all ready started to educate my girls on this and it rearly does start with us parents . so guys i know a lot of you have a lot of nice cars you all play with and adore some with young boys you are teaching all the under the son stuff .one of the sons might come to my door to pick up my daughter he better have his head on straight when it comes to this becasuse if it ant and happens ill look for heads .

Great... :togo:

You don't work in any government sector do you?? lol

I assure you, I will have a much better chance of surviving a car accident in my FG xr6 (on p plates) then your girls in their boxy 4cylinder ricers.

I'm sure all the young tradies will be ALOT safer carting around their gear in a 4cylinder. Having to thrash the motor to get going, crawling up hills with a full 1 ton trailer behind em doing 80 instead of 110km.
:

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

why does everyone need their hand held... I thought we had brains for a reason, yes some have less than others but why for 1% of the population does everyone else need to be dumbed down?

save urself from yourself mentality HAS to stop.

this is going to sound callus but I don’t care, people will take stupid risks, if they are moronic enough to do it in an area where they have no second option to pull out, or have enough run off when things go pear shaped then so be it... nature has always had a way of culling off the weak if we didn’t the world population would be way to much for everyone to survive, if they don’t get their thrills from a car they will elsewhere, jetski/bike/roadbike/dirtbike 1000000 other ways of going fast enough to kill yourself, for some its the challenge of the risk, others its just immaturity and many other factors but fact is YOUR NOT GOING TO STOP it from happening... end result is that he wasn’t in control, he took a risk that didn’t pay off... sad fact is that he took others with him... tragedy yes, avoidable yes... but that’s life.. and life is very unfair at times.

That's all good and well until one of those said idiots takes out your family coming the other way...
You also need to consider the litigative and rehabilitative cost accidents cost us all.

Yes its a pain they have to legislate to the lowest common denominator, however there is undoubtedly many many young lives saved because they accepted and followed these tighter rules and took less risks as a result.

Most of these rules do protect people, the law abiding people, the cynics will never acknowledge or admit that though, they'll only bleat about how they're own freedom is restricted, or roll out the "revenue raising" line to deflect attention..

The fact remains these restrictions do save lives, the ones who don't survive simply didn't follow the rules.....

How we get the message to those types of people is the biggest challenge...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

why does everyone need their hand held... I thought we had brains for a reason, yes some have less than others but why for 1% of the population does everyone else need to be dumbed down?

save urself from yourself mentality HAS to stop.

this is going to sound callus but I don’t care, people will take stupid risks, if they are moronic enough to do it in an area where they have no second option to pull out, or have enough run off when things go pear shaped then so be it... nature has always had a way of culling off the weak if we didn’t the world population would be way to much for everyone to survive, if they don’t get their thrills from a car they will elsewhere, jetski/bike/roadbike/dirtbike 1000000 other ways of going fast enough to kill yourself, for some its the challenge of the risk, others its just immaturity and many other factors but fact is YOUR NOT GOING TO STOP it from happening... end result is that he wasn’t in control, he took a risk that didn’t pay off... sad fact is that he took others with him... tragedy yes, avoidable yes... but that’s life.. and life is very unfair at times.

Would you say the same if this guy had plowed into your family.
We had a multi fatality in SA 2 yrs ago, a young fella, his girl and a VZ SS ute.
He decided to run from the Police, lost control and careered into oncomming traffic killing 1 or 2 innocent people aswell as themselves...was total carnage.
Do you think the relatives of those innocent people will just say thats life? Were they a few of the weak you speak of.

No ones saying to dumb anyone down, but if we are all model citizens like we profess, wheres the problem with limiting vehicles in particular areas.
Ford limited E-series Falcons to 180k's as the tailshaft was not gauranteed beyond that, whats wrong with limiting speed if its not gauranteed safe in a particular area.

[mrbaxr6t]

I have been pondering this tragedy since first reading about it on this thread, and I think I have come up with something (maybe) that may kerb incidences like this and here it is

we all pretty much agree that they will do this anyway so why not encourage them to do it in the safest way possible off the streets on the track, educate them that the streets are where losers drive like this and the track is where responsible people do this - I remember many years ago going to drag meets and there being a police backed PR vehicle called "SMOKEY 1" that was a HWP car on steroids that you can legally drag race with/against etc.. and the police were all over it saying stuff like "if you must speed and the like here is where you do it" "want to be chased by us do it here" etc etc.... use their mindset against them and put a premium on 1/4 mile timesheets so instead of them "racing" they pull out timesheets and compare times to see who is "fastest"

if they must do it encourage them to do it right - I am positive that with speed camera revenue they could make a relatively low cost drag meet, and hopefully over time the young when talking it up will whip out a timesheet instead of getting behind the wheel and saying things like "if you want to race me I will be at X on X date for the drag day, if you don't show you suck"

also why not incorporate a dyno type thing as well so they can have their timesheet and their dyno printout to compare against others?

please if you don't think this will work don't attack me personally just say its a bad idea and why you think it is. I feel this behavior needs to be taken off the streets and is the only real answer - how about a "p plate" legal drag race bracket (just thought of that) where only p plate legal cars can take part in?

[UNR8D]

Ive had mates killed from 2 Pplaters drag racing in brisbane, clipped the car my mates were traveling in and well the end result was I burried 2 of my friends. that was a 90km/h accident in a 80km/h zone and was due to 1 of the P platers loosing it when grabbing 2nd/3rd broke traction and he lost controll taking out the 2 cars... not exactly SPEED related but related non the less, people taking risks will continue to do so no matter WHAT limits/laws you put on them... in fact the more you trap people like a rat in a cage the more likely they are to rebel.

What im getting at is people do dumb things all the time and kill others, example is the womman in NSW who has killed 2 ppl on seperate occasions by driving through a stopsign not once but twice, but that gets page 5 news while something with speed and a young driver involved gets front page.. you only get emotional because of the media coverage and the banging on about how shocking it is to loose a life etc... its WRONG place/WRONG time and no matter what you do in life be it flying/driving/on a boat things can go wrong/do go wrong and people end up dead, yes its sad, yes its harsh, yes you greive for loved ones involved but as sure as we are put on this earth you are removed from it.

by being aware when driving you can avoid accidents or at least be in a position to react, dosent matter if your right wrong or otherwise if you cant drive defensively and have some sence of self presivaton its not much use being dead trying to argue you were in the right and the other party was wrong.

every time we drive/walk/ride do anything in life we are at risk... and fact is some people will have left home today and wont be returning home tonight, its not me being callus its being truthfull... fact of life how hard is that to understand.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by dave93761

Are you a trained driving instructor?

Defensive driving courses simply must become mandatory for all new P-Plate drivers. Regardless of how much this may cost, it's not worth having tragedies like what we saw yesterday morning.

The emphasis nationally IS on the defensive driver components; hazard perception et al, to 'scan' etc in order to not get into trouble in the first place. Its in our driver handbooks. We even give learner candidates a FREE driving lesson now.

Someone in thread suggested speedometers be made to read no higher than 120km/h(?).

Was tried in the US after the 1974 55Mph (88Km/h) NMSL imposition, had bugger all safety effect and NHTSA removed the requirement. Folk would simply drive past their speedometer maximums with no real guide to how fast they were going when on the interstates.

We will see ITS and GPS based automatice speed governing, particularly for younger drivers in the next few years. RTA are trialling various systems right now, and finished an international symposium late last year on the matter, see the NSW Road Safety mob @ the RTA website.

NT maximum is 130km/h for highway's and we might see this expand to other state roads and intercity freeway's down the track of time, but probably not for L or P categories. An ATSB report supports 130km/h for high-standard rural road lengths (think divided Hume), and suggests its implementation would not negatively affect overall network safety.

A different kettle of fish to situations we are dealing with here.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

I have been pondering this tragedy since first reading about it on this thread, and I think I have come up with something (maybe) that may kerb incidences like this and here it is

we all pretty much agree that they will do this anyway so why not encourage them to do it in the safest way possible off the streets on the track, educate them that the streets are where losers drive like this and the track is where responsible people do this - I remember many years ago going to drag meets and there being a police backed PR vehicle called "SMOKEY 1" that was a HWP car on steroids that you can legally drag race with/against etc.. and the police were all over it saying stuff like "if you must speed and the like here is where you do it" "want to be chased by us do it here" etc etc.... use their mindset against them and put a premium on 1/4 mile timesheets so instead of them "racing" they pull out timesheets and compare times to see who is "fastest"

if they must do it encourage them to do it right - I am positive that with speed camera revenue they could make a relatively low cost drag meet, and hopefully over time the young when talking it up will whip out a timesheet instead of getting behind the wheel and saying things like "if you want to race me I will be at X on X date for the drag day, if you don't show you suck"

also why not incorporate a dyno type thing as well so they can have their timesheet and their dyno printout to compare against others?

please if you don't think this will work don't attack me personally just say its a bad idea and why you think it is. I feel this behavior needs to be taken off the streets and is the only real answer - how about a "p plate" legal drag race bracket (just thought of that) where only p plate legal cars can take part in?

best post in this thread by far.

[xalent]

Unfortunately, the present government in South Australia believes that having a track to race against each other will increase these incidents happening on roads. Work that one out.....

[BENT_8]

Theres a bit of irony in that lot, over here in SA they are proposing a new motorsport venue to geet the hoons off the road and onto the track.
Dont you guys already have a drag strip...didnt stop this fella.

Unfortunately the strip cant be open 24/7 so chances are these things would continue to happen in the wee hours regardless of the incentives not to.

Saying i'll race you in a weeks time wont cut it in the heat of the moment.