Split thread: Older cars and safety

[Kryton]

You are crapping on.
Dont even know why you are continuing on with tyres, brakes, drivers, training or any of the so called 'evidence' that you think you've offered.
The thread isnt about any car before an accident or avoiding an accident, its about being in an accident and the aftermath - anything before it is irrelevant to the conversation.
Plain and simple, take 2 stripped out shells (to eliminate all the B.S you continue with), one brand new off the factory floor and your old XC (or whatever) and smash both head on at the same speed and see which one would cause less damage to the driver.
You can then go get another 2 shells and do a side impact if you so please - the results will be the same either way.
If you honestly believe that your XC has better crumple zones and built in occupant protection over a new car - you need to wake up to yourself.

Accept the FACTS that a newer car is safer for its occupants than an older car.

[Barry_v]

wow.

where did I say an XC has better crash safety. I simply defended its braking and steering systems.

lay off the crack pipe.

[Kryton]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

wow.

where did I say an XC has better crash safety. I simply defended its braking and steering systems.

lay off the crack pipe.

You can defend what you want but its not what the thread is about - had it stayed on topic, there wouldnt be 9 pages of garbage.
This thread is about occupant safety in a crash and nothing more, not brakes, not steering, not inflated egos.
Seems that is too hard for some to understand.
BTW, my post was directed at those that still think that an older car is safer than a newer car.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

wow.

where did I say an XC has better crash safety. I simply defended its braking and steering systems.

lay off the crack pipe.

Really what you've done is dance around a direct question with a heap of different scenarios but not actually answer the question or address the issue. The point was made that new cars are dependent on ABS and you started quoting your experience of older cars. When I asked you to back up how you think the older cars can avoid a crash as well as new car, you could not do it. I then demonstrated the reasons new cars can do it better, which really was stating the obvious and challenged you (and others) to counter it with fact and proof, but you still did not do it. Instead you bought other factors into it to try and water the facts down.

Here is a challenge, a 80-0 braking distance challenge. You in your car and me in mine, 5 runs with a few minutes driving to cool down the brakes between runs (because yours will not handle repeated efforts as well and we are not talking track days, we are talking emergency stops). The one with the shortage average distance in the braking test wins and no practice runs as you don't get to practice before a crash. I know your car is 160 kg lighter than the cobra I used as an example but it has the same brakes so this should not matter (according to you). Your P6 against my F6, I can arrange a suitable and legal venue.

Only rules are you are not allowed to run any brake modifications, only OEM brakes sizes and slotting/x drilling only if it comes standard. Also only stock size tyres and stock suspension. Petrol tank must be full and all standard equipment fitted.

Would you take the challenge?

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Here is a challenge, a 80-0 braking distance challenge. You in your car and me in mine, 5 runs with a few minutes driving to cool down the brakes between runs (because yours will not handle repeated efforts as well and we are not talking track days, we are talking emergency stops). The one with the shortage average distance in the braking test wins and no practice runs as you don't get to practice before a crash. I know your car is 160 kg lighter than the cobra I used as an example but it has the same brakes so this should not matter (according to you). Your P6 against my F6, I can arrange a suitable and legal venue.

Only rules are you are not allowed to run any brake modifications, only OEM brakes sizes and slotting/x drilling only if it comes standard. Also only stock size tyres and stock suspension. Petrol tank must be full and all standard equipment fitted.

Would you take the challenge?

seriously, what the?

go back, read what I've said. what the hell does an F6 vrs a P6 have to do with anything.

thats it, I'm done. All I've said was XC brakes arent terrible and are identical to later model falcon brakes up until 1998. why you're trying to make this personal I don't know. grow up.

[adelaidecrows02]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Really what you've done is dance around a direct question with a heap of different scenarios but not actually answer the question or address the issue. The point was made that new cars are dependent on ABS and you started quoting your experience of older cars. When I asked you to back up how you think the older cars can avoid a crash as well as new car, you could not do it. I then demonstrated the reasons new cars can do it better, which really was stating the obvious and challenged you (and others) to counter it with fact and proof, but you still did not do it. Instead you bought other factors into it to try and water the facts down.

Here is a challenge, a 80-0 braking distance challenge. You in your car and me in mine, 5 runs with a few minutes driving to cool down the brakes between runs (because yours will not handle repeated efforts as well and we are not talking track days, we are talking emergency stops). The one with the shortage average distance in the braking test wins and no practice runs as you don't get to practice before a crash. I know your car is 160 kg lighter than the cobra I used as an example but it has the same brakes so this should not matter (according to you). Your P6 against my F6, I can arrange a suitable and legal venue.

Only rules are you are not allowed to run any brake modifications, only OEM brakes sizes and slotting/x drilling only if it comes standard. Also only stock size tyres and stock suspension. Petrol tank must be full and all standard equipment fitted.

Would you take the challenge?

Devils advocate here, because I cant add anything that I can quantify , but am interested in reading- you are really coming across somewhat aggressive, hence your comments in brackets, and also your other thread, somewhat recently created.....) I think he was just trying to make his point....

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by adelaidecrows02

Devils advocate here, because I cant add anything that I can quantify , but am interested in reading- you are really coming across somewhat aggressive, hence your comments in brackets, and also your other thread, somewhat recently created.....) I think he was just trying to make his point....

I think Gecko is trying to make one as well. And given his profession and some of the things he's probably seen, personally I think he has every right.

[WMD351]

Originally Posted by adelaidecrows02

Devils advocate here, because I cant add anything that I can quantify , but am interested in reading- you are really coming across somewhat aggressive, hence your comments in brackets, and also your other thread, somewhat recently created.....) I think he was just trying to make his point....

Maybe it's because this thread seems to me to be more about trolling rather than rational debate.

[adelaidecrows02]

Originally Posted by WMD351

Maybe it's because this thread seems to me to be more about trolling rather then rational debate.

Of course - thats why after 11 pages I wrote something - if you understand what trolling is, then rationally debate it in another thread....

[svo supporter]

GECKO. I didn't mean it to sound like you were saying I was full of it. So my apologies. I just don't know how to put a dozen different quotes in one thread.

As for those that reckon I'm clutching at straws. Think what you wish. I've been asked for proof of things. I've replied on where to look for these things, but there are people out there that refuse to accept that. What more can you do.

A passing note. The ABS wire may not have had problems yet, but like any piece of wire, subjected to weather conditions, age does effect it. Believe that or not.

[WMD351]

No offense meant towards you adelaidecrow, but after 11 pages of crap I can't help but feel a very important message has been lost.

[AussieAV]

We've had a lot of back and forth on this thread, and often gotten side tracked into arguments about very specific side issues like the braking abilities of a given model, or the sturdiness of an ABS sensor wire.

Bottom line, the majority here (about 90% going by the separate poll thread - thanks gecko) support the stance that new cars are safer, while apparently there are at least 9 members who believe old cars are safer.

A number of people have taken the time to find video links and TV show clips that support the new car side. This is evidence from outside the AFF, evidence independent of personal views and interpretation.

My challenge to those who feel older cars are safer (a view you are completely entitled to), is to spend the time looking for some outside corroboration of your stance. Show us a link to a video of a crash test where the old car wins, or a link to some form of scientific paper or published news/magazine article that backs up your opinion.

The people who believe that new cars are safer have taken the time to do so, please do them the courtesy of doing the same if you are going to continue debating this point.

[adelaidecrows02]

Originally Posted by WMD351

No offense meant towards you adelaidecrow, but after 11 pages of crap I can't help but feel a very important message has been lost.

none taken Wal

[UNR8D]

Gecko, I had offered that exact challenge and somehow the thread turned back into debating how long a wire will last, and XC's vs NC's.

people on here have used cars as their example of expertise, I had posted evidence or linked to evidence in much earlier posts, so since all people understood was this vs that I drove 3 varied cars in 1 day, posted 'MY OPPINION' same as barry/svo etc and due to a play on words in 1 line there had to be a debate about how I was an old car hater/not allowed to express my own opinion etc... Hypocrite much?

Ive posted evidence, SVO and BARRY its time for you to do the same.

SVO how many of these so called ABS wires have you had break on you? *and ill ask for an honest reply*

[Kryton]

Again, who cares about ABS or the lifespan of wires?
As far as the thread is concerned, the crash has HAPPENED.
This thread isnt about prevention, its about survivability in the event of a crash.
Still waiting to see EVIDENCE that an older car is safer than a newer car.

[Nikked]

I'ld like to know how an ABS wire is going to fail the exact second you are going to crash.

Holy jesus SVO has this thread has turned into a mire, the fact is a new car is safer then an old one.

Why are we crapping on about ABS?

[aussiblue]

I love my very original 1963 EH Holden Panel Van too but I feels extremely vulnerable safety wise when I drive it. No disk brakes (4 wheel drums), no collapsible steering column, no crumple zone, cross ply tyres, no brake proportioning valve (I found it wants to go sideways and maybe even roll when I tested it to see what would happen in an emergency stop), no headrests etc. I have fitted seat belts but otherwise it's stock.

More worryingly lots of other drivers don't understand that it is still competitively quick around tow,n but takes a longer distance to brake, in normal city driving. As a result I frequently get idiots that change lanes on me going through the lights (they obviously think I am are going to move away abnormally slowly), pull out in front of me from stops signs (they must think it does 5 km/h rather than 60 km/h around town) and swap lanes and slow down immediately in front of me on the freeway without leaving sufficient braking/slowing space for me. So now it's a once a month Sunday driver and I drive it with extreme caution and some trepidation. Sometimes I wonder if I should fit racing stripes and mags etc so it looks like a faster hotted up car and so the other drivers would not wrongly assume is a snail paced car.

Yes; at very slow impact speed its chrome bumpers would do more damage to the other modern car than it but I might end up with whiplash and an impact at any sort of speed may well kill or maim me. And yes, although they don't get the same weird treatment as the EH does from other drivers, I also know that modern cars are also safer than my two old Fairlanes. The certainly have more safety features than the EH but the have no air bags or computerised handling assistance. And yes while larger sedans from the same year are generally safer than smaller cars of the same year with identical safety features; generally drving a modern cars with modern safety features will significantly increase your statistical life expectancy.

[aussiblue]

For non-motor vehicle accidents in the United States between 1975-1995 33%, ethanol intoxication accounted for 32% of fatal falls, 42% of fatal fires/burns, 34% of fatal drownings and 29% of fatal poisonings. 32% of homicide victims and 23% of suicide victims were intoxicated [ANNALS OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE 33(6):659-701 (1999)]. (The most common cause of poisoning is carbon monoxide.)

Drivers of Sport-Utility Vehicles (SUVs) are especially vulnerable to fatal rollovers. Rollover accidents account for only 3% of all U.S. motor-vehicle accidents, but they cause nearly a third of all vehicle-occupant fatalities. An SUV occupant is 3 times as likely to die as a result of a rollover than an occupant of a passenger car.

The chances of dying in an automobile accident in 1953 was four times greater than in 2003, based on fatalities per mile driven in the United States. Better roads & medical care along with tougher drunk-driving laws have been attribued to some of this difference. But there was considerable improvement in vehicle safety features over the 50-year period. Significant safety improvements included power brakes, front disc brakes, four-wheel antilock brake systems, radial-ply tires, penetration-resistant windshields, padded dashboards, collapsible stearing columns, auto-body structures that crumple around passenger compartments, lap-and-shoulder safety belts, dual air bags and sun visors. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety evaluates vehicles for crash-test strength against frontal, side, and rear-end crashes. Digital cameras, tire-pressure monitors, emergency-brake assist, night-vision assist and computer-controlled navigation devices should further improve driving safety, among other newer technologies.

Road fatalities in the US fell from 52,627 in 1970 to 42,116 yearly while in the same period road fatalities in Germany fell from 21,000 to 6,949 per year. A large part of the difference is attributed to Electronic Stability Control (ECS) which is found in half of German cars, but only 6% of those in the USA.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html

[aussiblue]

But we're all doomed:

Beyond The Beyond Just another WordPress weblog Drive a car, pay with life expectancy
By Bruce Sterling February 3, 2010 | 5:17 am | Categories: Uncategorized
*Statistics are a wonderful thing, aren’t they?

*I hadn’t heard that about the cigarettes. Five minutes off lifespan per cig. That ought to be written on the pack, shouldn’t it?

*The worst thing about this “twenty minutes” business is that you already lost the hour off your lifespan while you were stuck in traffic.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/hou...598/story.html

TORONTO — Researchers at a Toronto hospital say that every hour spent driving could lead to a 20-minute loss in life expectancy.

Using complex computer models, a team at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre determined that, much like how each cigarette smoked takes about five minutes off of a person’s life, the more time spent behind the wheel, the more likely a person is to die in a car crash.

“When drivers try to speed to get to their destination faster, they actually lose more time because the savings from faster travel are offset by the increased prospect of a crash,” said Dr. Donald Redelmeier, the study’s lead researcher….

*Somebody recently said that cars are the new cigarettes. There’s probably a statistical treatment somewhere that explains how many elderly die in heat waves because of your new car."

[WMD351]

Oh jeez, alright I'm genuinely interested, will the broken abs wire show up on the dashboard light? And if so does this make this whole line of debate redundant?

[Auslandau]

Seeing that here are now 2 threads running on the very same topic ... this one can be put out of its misery