Bloody Councils and their fines

[2011G6E]

In Bundaberg we had a single car garage in our back yard (we lived on a corner) set back from the road, and a long concrete drive leading from the kerb, across the footpath, through our fence, and up to the shed...you could park a big car in front of the shed and the tail of it wouldn't even poke onto the footpath.
Anyway, I had our Morris Minor in the shed rebuilding the front disc brakes, our car at the time, a '78 XC-Update Fairmont GXL, was parked behind it on the driveway, and the tail of it was about a meter inside our fence. My mother came over for a visit in her little '96 121 Mazda, and parked on our driveway behind our XC. the tail of her little hatchback poked out onto the footpath, but on our driveway.

As she was talking to me in the shed, a police car pulled up and a cop walked over, "advising" us that her car was illegally parked, and they "could" give her a ticket for parking "blocking the footpath" (which she wasn't because of the wide footpath in our area). They again "advised" her to move it, and left.

The old bird didn't...

Hey, she's as law-abiding as they come...but even she knows ******** when she smells it...

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

Keep in mind that davway is from Victoria and that is not the case here. The ownership of the land doesn't come into it here... it'll depend on whether the area is considered a "Road" a "Road Related Area" or "Shoulder" as per the Road Rules in Vic. Trying to work it out from the limited info we have, if this was in Vic I'm pretty sure what is desribed would be considere a "Road", and the OP would have to park in line with traffic flow and the fine would stand.

It doesn't matter where anyone is from when it comes to this fine. Private property is private property, regardless if you're from the base of Tassie, or the tip of QLD. No council in this country can fine you for parking the wrong way on your property.

Leaving the property is another issue altogether. If you were to drive on the wrong side of the road leaving the property, the council still can't fine you. The cops do.

[opto]

Bit of a longshot, but each council is issued a document to give them the power to produce By Laws, I cant remember the name of it, however, in court, if asked to produce this document, It MUST be produced, even if the lawyer says they have it or the Judge says, thats they take it that it exists, It must be produced, If the Local council cannot produce it, the By Law cannot be acted on.
There are a lot of Councils out there that have "Lost" it over time, and thats the out, however, IF they can produce it, this avenue is a dead end.

[BHDOGS]

i got a parking fine recently in Adelaide on north terrace next to the uni 170 bucks for parking in a bicycle lane at 12:30 at night on a wednesday

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by opto

Bit of a longshot, but each council is issued a document to give them the power to produce By Laws, I cant remember the name of it, however, in court, if asked to produce this document, It MUST be produced, even if the lawyer says they have it or the Judge says, thats they take it that it exists, It must be produced, If the Local council cannot produce it, the By Law cannot be acted on.
There are a lot of Councils out there that have "Lost" it over time, and thats the out, however, IF they can produce it, this avenue is a dead end.

There was recently an admission during one of those state council meetings in QLD that the constitution doesnt recognise local councils and therefor they dont have any powers to enforce anything! Currently all the councils are trying to get this amended.
I'll have to find a link online somewhere....

[Jim Goose]

http://www.larryhannigan.com/validbylaws.htm

Interesting read for those interested in fighting fines etc issued by councils.
Also think about this. All councils (at least in QLD) are now holders of an ABN and registered as A BUSINESS.

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

2 things here 1: he is in sydney 2: road related area applies here but road related area is on applicable to an area that is in use by the general public such as sa shopping centre car park.
this was not a road related are so the ranger was just a power hungry wannabe cop , no smart enough to make the academy so he gets off booking as many people as possible. I see it a lot with council rangers

1. I know it's in Sydney - my point was that not everything is the same accross the country and that the person you were talking to may not be entirely incorrect.

2. I'm not familar with the NSW definitions, but in Victoria the area doesn't have to be "in use" by the general public for it to be a road related area. In fact, all kerbs, footpaths, nature strips etc. (Ie. the land directly adjacent to the road) is considered a road related area here. Have you got a link to the NSW definition?

3. No need to denigrate someone who is just doing their job. From the mimimal description we have of the location - it would seem that where the OP parked is extremely close to the Road and hard to tell where property divisions lie. Regardless, I don't think it's clear cut anyway and the property line may not be relevant.

4. Are you able to use the Quote function as designed and have it preceeding your reply? The way your using it is extremely confusing.

Originally Posted by svo supporter

It doesn't matter where anyone is from when it comes to this fine. Private property is private property, regardless if you're from the base of Tassie, or the tip of QLD. No council in this country can fine you for parking the wrong way on your property.

I'm not convinced of that. If the "property" in question forms part of a "Road" or a "Road Related Area" and they have statutory power over that "Road" or "Road Related Area" to issue fines - I think you can be.

You don't have a "get out of jail free" card just because your on your own land. The council can fine you for all sorts of things on your property. Noise. Rubbish. Safety. etc. etc.

I'm not saying categorically that the OP is in the wrong - I'm just saying that it is possible that he is. I'd be very interested to see the council's response. Also, as indicated - some photos of the area in question would be helpful.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

http://www.larryhannigan.com/validbylaws.htm

Was this the guy that four corners (or similar) did a story on and he turned out to be a complete wackjob? I remember this coming up about 4 to 5 years ago - with numerous stories of bylaws and fines being appealed right up to the federal court. Havent heard of any outcomes. Would be interesting to find out if anyone was sucsessful. Unfortunately, I don't think they will be!

[Jim Goose]

Its not just him though, there are plenty more websites that also agrue that point. Council powers were granted by the relevant State Government Local Government Act. They are certainly worth a read!

[Jim Goose]

For Dave 3911, Found it : http://www.alga.asn.au/constitutiona...atoryNotes.pdf

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

i got a parking fine recently in Adelaide on north terrace next to the uni 170 bucks for parking in a bicycle lane at 12:30 at night on a wednesday

This is not really relevant to anything here. As you were clearly illegally parked, as the OP here possily was legally parked, and that is what is being discissed.

Unless of course there a sign saying it was ok to park there at 12:30 at night? But I doubt it.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Anyway, I had our Morris Minor in the shed rebuilding the front disc brakes, our car at the time, a '78 XC-Update Fairmont GXL, was parked behind it on the driveway, and the tail of it was about a meter inside our fence. My mother came over for a visit in her little '96 121 Mazda, and parked on our driveway behind our XC. the tail of her little hatchback poked out onto the footpath, but on our driveway.

As she was talking to me in the shed, a police car pulled up and a cop walked over, "advising" us that her car was illegally parked, and they "could" give her a ticket for parking "blocking the footpath" (which she wasn't because of the wide footpath in our area). They again "advised" her to move it, and left.

The old bird didn't...

Hey, she's as law-abiding as they come...but even she knows ******** when she smells it...

Actually most councils and most state traffic codes state it is an offence to park any portion of a vehicle or trailer to cause any obstruction to a footpath. If you had a hard case copper or councli ranger you could have been wearing a fine.

Originally Posted by JIM GOOSE

There was recently an admission during one of those state council meetings in QLD that the constitution doesnt recognise local councils and therefor they dont have any powers to enforce anything! Currently all the councils are trying to get this amended.
I'll have to find a link online somewhere....

Was thrown out by the High Court as being incorrect in law and circumstance of the constitution and the council rates and penalties applied.

One thing for all to remember, the Rnager is backed by laws and stautes ant local, state and federal laws. If the OP has proof such as where the property line is etc on a plan as well as some photos, the fine will be squashes, parking contrary to the flow of traffic only applies on the actual road or laneway, not private property.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by tonyd89

Damn that sucks. I park facing the wrong direction all the time. Too many asians on my street and when they have gatherings they pack about 100 cars into a 30m long road. Have no choice BUT to park facing the wrong way ...

Those damn pesky asians, hey,....50 cars per each potential 30 meters of parking, hell that makes their cars even smaller than themselves.
What a pointless post!!

[Landau Stable]

For those who were wondering, here are some pics. The first, shows my wagon in the same spot i always park it. If you look up the street, you can see the steel posts which go out onto the lane, and the bins, which are within the boundary. The second shot shows the bins inside the boundary line as well as the parking spots. Also, i have witnessed council development applications for the vacant area between my shop and the other business. Those council drawings included a bin bay which protruded onto the street to the same extent as the marked car spaces, and it was at the corner of my shop, so it would have been built right at the rear of my wagon if it had been approved. (it was knocked back for other reasons) I have regularly had unregestired cars out the front for months at a time, and parked the wagon like this for 10 years without trouble until this moron comes along. It seems to me that by looking at the rest of the street, that something might be different to the norm. This parasite was clearly too stupid to think that it my be different, or at the least ask their office for confirmation if they suspected it was different.

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by bungarra

parking contrary to the flow of traffic only applies on the actual road or laneway, not private property.

Everyone keeps saying that, but nobody has shown any proof of it. I'm happy to be proven wrong - but everything I can find says otherwise. The photo just posted says to me that this "private property" looks very much part of the road/laneway - regardless of who owns it.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Was thrown out by the High Court as being incorrect in law and circumstance of the constitution and the council rates and penalties applied.

One thing for all to remember, the Rnager is backed by laws and stautes ant local, state and federal laws. If the OP has proof such as where the property line is etc on a plan as well as some photos, the fine will be squashes, parking contrary to the flow of traffic only applies on the actual road or laneway, not private property.

Bungarra follow the link i provided.. They are not recognised in the Australian Constitution, the councils ADMIT this. They have applied to get it changed so they are recognised. councils ONLY exsist because of a STATE government act.

http://www.alga.asn.au/constitutiona...atoryNotes.pdf

[Landau Stable]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

Everyone keeps saying that, but nobody has shown any proof of it. I'm happy to be proven wrong - but everything I can find says otherwise. The photo just posted says to me that this "private property" looks very much part of the road/laneway - regardless of who owns it.

What part have you missed? Do you not see the posts? Or the lines marked out front of the other building? Take a closer look at the second picture too. You can see a driveway which drops underneath the building. By the time it reaches the building line, it has dropped about a metre. Does that not make it clear that that section is not part of the laneway?

[nstg8a]

looking at those pics imo you can understand why the parking warden gave the ticket, it looks just like the rest of the road/laneway.

you cant expect a warden to know where each unmarked boundry is.

as has been said repeatedly, get the proof, get it squashed.

lets just hope that its not a case of the warden actually getting it right, and youve been getting away with illegally parking all this time.

[Giant Cranium]

only 143. got one the other month for 385.

but ryde council are a bunch of jerks who fined me for blocking my driveway.

[Landau Stable]

The picture shows the view looking up the laneway. Imagining my car was not there, have you ever seen a lane suddenly gain or lose 2.5 metres like this? Anyone with a half brain would have alarm bells ringing before shooting off a ticket. clearly this is not your normal laneway. the inspector walked up the laneway and would have walked past the metre drop in the driveway for the other building. Once again, have you ever seen that in a laneway? common sense would tell you that the building owns the car spaces for a reason, and that my car is parked in a similar situation.

[Landau Stable]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

only 143. got one the other month for 385.

but ryde council are a bunch of jerks who fined me for blocking my driveway.

That is pathetic. It would be a joke if it wasn't so serious. Talk about out of control.

[Rodp]

So my understanding is you've been fined because it appears your car is parked facing towards oncoming traffic.

From your initial post, I would have guessed it was a lot more clear cut than those photos indicate and while I can see why you would be steamed, trying to get the guy fired is a little over the top.

I've tried to understand your explanation but it seems to hinge on posts on someone else's property up the lane way? You can't expect anyone to assume an invisible property line based on a property further up the street and your car is pointed towards oncoming traffic. Have I seen lane ways like this? All the time in the city. Would I have any idea where the property line starts and ends? You know what they say, never assume.

Gather your information, take some photos and present it to attempt to have the fine dropped - it certainly isn't worth all the angst it's apparently giving you.

[Jim Goose]

You also have that... No Parking painted on you door... which maybe in his mind he thought you were parked blocking a garage door. Which is also illegal as you cant park across someone driveway. For all he knows is that the car has parked across someones driveway??
Plus you have bitumen up to the doorway of the shed? So you cant see where the actual road ends and your boundary starts.

Just tell them you were parked on private land, im sure they will tear it up.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

I'm not convinced of that. If the "property" in question forms part of a "Road" or a "Road Related Area" and they have statutory power over that "Road" or "Road Related Area" to issue fines - I think you can be.

You don't have a "get out of jail free" card just because your on your own land. The council can fine you for all sorts of things on your property. Noise. Rubbish. Safety. etc. etc.




!

Where have I mentioned about having a free reign over noise, rubbish or anything like that?

I simply pointed out, you can park anyway you want to on private property anywhere in Aust. You can have a car in your yard without a motor and gearbox and there is still nothing the council can do about it. The council property starts at the footpath and that's where they can start issuing fines. The only fine they can issue then, is for parking on the footpath.

Considering the Op was on his property, he has every right to tell the council to whistle dixie and get the fine withdrawn.

[snap]

Copy this out and send it in with fine

[Giant Cranium]

you dont know ryde council very well.

bunch of nazis.

so bad that ther did not empty our bin once because the lid was open about 30mm.

good luck landau with the council and what seems to be WRB tagging

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by Landau Stable

The picture shows the view looking up the laneway. Imagining my car was not there, have you ever seen a lane suddenly gain or lose 2.5 metres like this? Anyone with a half brain would have alarm bells ringing before shooting off a ticket. clearly this is not your normal laneway. the inspector walked up the laneway and would have walked past the metre drop in the driveway for the other building. Once again, have you ever seen that in a laneway? common sense would tell you that the building owns the car spaces for a reason, and that my car is parked in a similar situation.

Many times around Australia, councils change things to suit situations in traffic requirements. Fremantle WA, Williamstown Victoria has some laneways exactly like this, as well as many older areas and you can park in front of some buildings and not others. Best thing for the OP to do is get the plans from council of their property and if it shows that he is parking correctly they will quash the parking infringement, if it is for contrary to the flow of traffic, the OP that could be different and would require a lawyer who knows the local government act or the road traffic act to get the right wording. I hope the fine gets squashed.

[snap]

The local council tried to fine me for not registering my 2 dogs so I walked into their office with the fine notice and stapled that letter to it and told the girl at the counter to give it to her boss and 5 months later no trouble.

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Where have I mentioned about having a free reign over noise, rubbish or anything like that?

You didn't. It's called an Example.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/example

I'm sorry if such sutble use of the English language is lost on you.....

I simply pointed out, you can park anyway you want to on private property anywhere in Aust.

You can put it as "simply" as you want - I'm just not going to accept it on blind faith. As I've pointed out time and time again, Council's can indeed issue parking infringements(Notwithstanding the current discussion re their constitutional legality in the first place) for Roads, Road Related Area's and Shoulders for which they have statutory authority. From what I can find, the definition of those things in law make no reference what so ever to ownership. The OP may indeed own the land - but that doesn't mean that land isn't considered a "Road" for the purposes of a traffic infringement.

You can have a car in your yard without a motor and gearbox and there is still nothing the council can do about it. The council property starts at the footpath and that's where they can start issuing fines. The only fine they can issue then, is for parking on the footpath.

And herein lies the issue. This car isn't in a yard is it? Also From the photo's, and the OPs own description, there is no footpath in this situation. The "road" ends at a magical line that only he knows and then his property begins. This is all I'm getting at - he wasn't parked on the grass in his yard, he wasn't parked on a private footpath, he was parked on a Road - that he happens to own.

Considering the Op was on his property, he has every right to tell the council to whistle dixie and get the fine withdrawn.

And I honestly hope they do withdraw it. I'm just playing devil's advocate here and I don't think it's that straight forward.

Originally Posted by nstg8a

looking at those pics imo you can understand why the parking warden gave the ticket, it looks just like the rest of the road/laneway.

you cant expect a warden to know where each unmarked boundry is.

as has been said repeatedly, get the proof, get it squashed.

lets just hope that its not a case of the warden actually getting it right, and youve been getting away with illegally parking all this time.

My sentiments exactly.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Dave3911

I'm sorry if such sutble use of the English language is lost on you.....


You can put it as "simply" as you want - I'm just not going to accept it on blind faith. As I've pointed out time and time again, Council's can indeed issue parking infringements(Notwithstanding the current discussion re their constitutional legality in the first place) for Roads, Road Related Area's and Shoulders for which they have statutory authority. From what I can find, the definition of those things in law make no reference what so ever to ownership. The OP may indeed own the land - but that doesn't mean that land isn't considered a "Road" for the purposes of a traffic infringement.



And herein lies the issue. This car isn't in a yard is it? Also From the photo's, and the OPs own description, there is no footpath in this situation. The "road" ends at a magical line that only he knows and then his property begins. This is all I'm getting at - he wasn't parked on the grass in his yard, he wasn't parked on a private footpath, he was parked on a Road - that he happens to own.



.


.

Talking about councils being to fine you for (eg noise, rubbish etc etc) has nothing to do with a parking fine. So it's you that's going left of field, not me being unable to comprehend the english language.

As for parking on grass. Mate, another left of field assumption. The council property starts at the footpath. Straight and simple. Anywhere from the footpath, towards a property, is classed as private property. Careless who owns the property. You can park how ever you like on that section of land. be it grass, concrete, bituman or dirt and the council can't do diddly about it. The only the way a council can fine you in this instance, is if the car isn't a roller.

So to put it simply, the op has every right to fight for an injustice for getting this fine.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

As for parking on grass. Mate, another left of field assumption. The council property starts at the footpath. Straight and simple. Anywhere from the footpath, towards a property, is classed as private property. Careless who owns the property. You can park how ever you like on that section of land. be it grass, concrete, bituman or dirt and the council can't do diddly about it. The only the way a council can fine you in this instance, is if the car isn't a roller.

So to put it simply, the op has every right to fight for an injustice for getting this fine.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, there was no footpath at my old property, my housemate got a fine for parking on the grass. Council property to the best of my knowledge actually starts at your fence boundary, you may have to mow it, but they still own it (as far as I'm aware anyway).

To be honest, I can see why someone may try to fine you for this - there don't appear to be any line markings indicating that this is in fact a parking space, regardless of what might be up the road, and to be fair, you are facing the wrong way. Just my 2 cents anyway...