Who is more Australian Holden or Ford?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

and this would make holden more aussie than ford.....i rest my case with facts and perceptions


goodbye


PS the LS1 guys would love me

So you are saying that when overseas promoting Australia and Australian Racing of Australian cars people recognise the Fords as Australian cars but have no idea what a Holden is to it is rebranded to something else makes it MORE Australian?

No it just makes it unknown.

You have babbled a series of "perceptions" all of which have proven to be COMPLETELY WRONG.

A lot of people perceive that the earth is flat. Some take a lot of convincing that the earth is in fact round and some just never accept it purely because it would mean they were wrong........

P.S. Ever seen an Australian Ford with the badge replaced by that of an American Ford?

Many of the LS1 guys who love you stick bowties on their commodores to let people that they are of American mechanical design......

[billy302]

The Following is a direct Quote from Holden History
In 1856 James Alexander Holden established a leather and saddlery business on the corner of King William and Rundle Streets in Adelaide, South Australia. in 1885 it combined with the carriage builder Henry Adolf Frost to became the famous "Holden and Frost".

In 1910 Holden & Frost began trimming motor vehicles and in 1914 they built their first one off car body for an imported Lancia chassis. Larger contracts followed but ironically the first major contract was for Dodge bodies (a later competitor).

By 1917 the Australian government had placed an import embargo on complete vehicles, the First World War having almost entirely involved Britain's industry, and German U Boat Captains were doing their best to ensure that very few cargo ships leaving North America reached their intended destination.

These conditions, combined with the need to save valuable cargo space, restricted imports to chassis and forced local vehicle agents to look to local firms to provide the bodies.

In 1919 Edward Wheeldon Holden registered "Holden's Motor Body Builders" as a separate company specialising in car bodies. At the time they built bodies for Overland, Chevrolet, Durant, Hupmobile and Dodge, and by 1923 they were producing over 12,000 bodies per year.

In 1924 "Holden's Motor Body Builders" became the sole Australian body builder for General Motors vehicles and had an output of over 22,000 bodies (over 11,000 for GM) in 65 different body styles.

The famous "Lion and Stone" symbol was designed in 1928 by George Rayner Hoff, and represented the legend of man's invention of the wheel. It was subsequently fitted to all Holden bodies and, although undergoing minor changes over the years, remains to this day.

During the 'Great Depression' in 1930, production fell from 34,000 units per year to a mere 1651 and, in 1931, General Motors were able to buy the entire Holden's Motor Body Builders and merge it with their North American operation to form General Motors - Holdens.

This move was not entirely motivated by taking advantage of the company when it was at an all time low but was mainly occasioned by the Australian government freezing the currency so that money couldn't leave the country during the depression.

So there you go, the Holden car was always a GM product.

[ThaFlash]

you can get anymore aussie than selling holdens to yanks

[ThaFlash]

another thing to consider regarding the ops original post....

the younger generation seem to have the finger on the pulse as one generation of p platers after the other drive vn-vx models, very few ea-au models in comparisson unless its an ex cab, another ugly scar on the australian ford motor company's image

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

you can get anymore aussie than selling holdens to yanks

But they never have.

GM sold Pontiacs not Holdens.

Whereas the left hand drive version of the Australian Ford Capri sold in USA was called a Ford Capri.

[Windsor220]

If back in 1925 or whenever it was, Ford used another unique name to brand their cars instead of Ford then they would be considered Australian. Its only the name that keeps people thinking Ford is all-American.

[The G6ET Spot]

And another thread in The Pub going around in circles.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by onfire

I think the myth that the Holden Commodore is the " Australian " car is a result of Holden doing a much better job at marketing it as such, as compared to Ford Australia.

IIRC, the VN was advertised with much glory about its "superior and world class German design". OMG, its almost like its a bloody Mercedes. At least that was the crux of the ad anyway.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

true, but i think it has more to do with holden only really being available in australia. vauxhall only in britain. opel in germany. chevrolet in america. i realise most of those brands have been available to some degree in other countries, but within reason each brand of general motors is unique to it's own country. ford is ford where ever you go in the world and therefore is looked upon as being american, where in actual fact, each separate entity is normally as unique to that country as the general motors entity is to theirs

I think what you have just stated is very valid, had Ford had done the same it surely would have given a more australian authenticity to the brand.

[GT0132]

Holden for sure and why I suspect that is why the Commodore outsells the Falcon by a long shot....I guess a lot of Commodore owners who also happen to be patriotic figure that if they are gonna buy an Aussie car they may as well buy Holden.

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by billy302

People who think the 1948 FX Holden was designed in Australia are either miss informed or I'm sorry to say just plain dumb.
The Engine was a direct import from General Motors as was the brakes transmission differential and suspension. All imported. The panels were stamped in the USA also. The car was assembled here. Like Ford Customlines of the fifties, American Motors Rambler and Chev's were also assembled here.
The only thing unique to Holden was the name. 1950 or 1951 General Motors took over the company and actually Called themselves General Motors Holden or G.M.H. for short. If you doubt what I say, I think I can still lay my hands on dads old pay slips which had General Motors Holden on the top.

Oh dear, my teacher in year 6 told the class blatant lies or misinformed drivel to make us support Holden. He said "Holden was the first car designed by Australians for Australians" and also said Holden made the worlds first ute in 1948 and Ford copied. I tried to put my hand up to try and correct him and he defensively talked over me. I hate it when people get away with that.

[JC]

From a perception point of view, Holden is Australian (Football, meat pies, kangaroos & holden cars.... so the song goes). From a reality point of view, Holden was an australian business bought by an amercian company to form GM-H. Fors is amercian and though they produce locally, they always were american.

However, when it comes to locally designed, engineered and built, then the falcon is more australian than the commodore, as well as by parts content.

So unless you define very specific measuring criteria, it's a hard one to answer - you could say both or neither, depending on the criteria you set.

[LTDHO]

Neither!

most of the uneducated consider Holden a Australian and Ford a branch of an American company.

[Jim Goose]

The other funny perception by the public at large is.... that there are Holden Factories in Australia only. Where as Ford has factories world wide.... therefor Holden is a unique "Australian" company!....

[stang65]

I thank all for their input in this thread, apart from a small few who i don`t know what was written due to the efforts of the mods(thank you for keeping it clean).

I feel that not only valid opinions have been shared but also some facts have been offered that i would not have known where to look to find them.

[XRGhia]

I'll rinse and repeat..

Where was the FALCON made and is it avaliable in America?
Where was the COMMODORE made and is it avaliable in America?


THE FALCON DIDN'T GO TO AMERICA IN LHD, only a few hundred AU E-gas wagons were exported to Japan and the sorts for testing as taxi's over there..

THE COMMODORE DID GO TO AMERICA IN LHD because thats what General Motors ordered...

also, falcons arent avaliable in LHD unless you spend up big on a conversion

[S3SR]

define australian

the typical australian, is just a decendent of the convicts from britain

and are we talking commodore vs falcon, or Ford vs Holden?

Falcon and territory are made here, assembly, i dare say most of the parts are manufactured here too.
which leaves, focus, fiesta, mondeo, transit, ranger to be imported

holden produce that horrid (try working on one and tell me im wrong) cruze the sedan not the even more horrid lunchbox, here in australia along with commodore, i dont know so wont comment about manufacturing

captiva, epica, isuzu colorado and barina (had to look them up :P)


as for being australian, no bias at all just fact goes into saying Ford engineers/designers have been in the job longer, know how to simplify without making it cheap.... im talking about the build quality

BA/BF models, dash used those yellow clips, phillips head screws, looms were existant for plugging aftermarket things into. ie ACC/power/neg/mute looms above drivers footwell, dash goes back in once taken out.
transit - acc power leads are huge for wiring heavy feeds off, dash uses those yellow clips or screws
ranger - just a well built car, few flaws in interior design but i bought one

VE commodore pull the centre console off..... holy snappin ducksh** no wonder series II put a screw in it... just plain stupid
Isuzu ute - dash with those stupid metal clips that stay in the dash, then dont go back into the trim so it sags....
cruze - no where to mount anything, dash is rediculous, not a car to work on, will fall apart after 100,000kms or 3yrs

moral of my opinion, at the end of the day, as long as you are happy with what you bought, can sleep at night knowing that Cherry motors, Ssangyong, Great wall, and all the other cheap rubbish exist in this country because you all asked for it.

i own an audi now and love it, cant see why someone would spend $20k on a small crapper like a barina when you can buy a preloved audi now for that much.....

im buying an F250 when i get a chance, to carbon offset the audi

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by xrghiawagon

I'll rinse and repeat..

Where was the FALCON made and is it avaliable in America?
Where was the COMMODORE made and is it avaliable in America?


THE FALCON DIDN'T GO TO AMERICA IN LHD, only a few hundred AU E-gas wagons were exported to Japan and the sorts for testing as taxi's over there..

THE COMMODORE DID GO TO AMERICA IN LHD because thats what General Motors ordered...

also, falcons arent avaliable in LHD unless you spend up big on a conversion

The Falcon didn't go from here to America as it was originally designed and built in America as well as Australia up until 1972 when from the XA on it was designed and built here

A little bit of reading for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by xrghiawagon

THE FALCON DIDN'T GO TO AMERICA IN LHD, only a few hundred AU E-gas wagons were exported to Japan and the sorts for testing as taxi's over there..

also, falcons arent avaliable in LHD unless you spend up big on a conversion

Um, Falcon started as a LHD in America...

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by S3SR

define australian

the typical australian, is just a decendent of the convicts from britain

You have been misinformed. Most Australians can trace there roots from after World War 2 onwards when there was a big migration from Europe. But that's a totally different story. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Papa Smurf]

GM won the right to manufacture THE Aussie car here with a grant from the Government in 1946 and the rest of the story is History. The main difference I believe is that Ford didn't get 5 Million Pounds and reduced company tax to build a car here in Australia, GM did.

[2011G6E]

There hasn't been any such animal as "an Australian car company" for many many decades. they're all owned by big overseas companies and are just subsidiaries that could be shut down on a whim with no loss to the parent.
In fact you could probably go back to the old days of the 1920's when there were companies making all sorts of cars from scratch here, however, they usually used generic motors bought in from big manufacturers, much like the hordes of different English and Australian motorcycle makes in the early days, all using the same JAP engines.

So yes, the cars are (pretty much) Australian, but the company itself?

[Neale]

Holden & Ford are as Aussie as meat pies

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Um, Falcon started as a LHD in America...

Not to mention they were exported to south africa!

[XRGhia]

ok then...

im not gonna challenge that posted in response to me.. they are both genuine..


my bad..

[Spitfire 6.2]

I rekon we have a great local product in both the Falcon and Commodore, they both represent great value motoring when compared to a foreign (built) car of similar spec and are a product we can be proud to call "Australian".
Unfortunately we will probably never have a true Australian car company, these are as close as we will ever get.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by GT-Mark

Unfortunately we will probably never have a true Australian car company, these are as close as we will ever get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...s_of_Australia

and:

Carbontech Redback Spyder

[Sizey]

I believe both are as unAustralian as the other. All car companies have become subject to globalization in ideas and parts etc. Therefore no one manufacturer or make is solely belonging to one country.

[mik]

they both have their roots in US, both brands had early models designed in the US, the first 48/215 that rolled off the production line in oz was registered as a chevrolet for anyone disputeing where its roots came from, the commodore started its life designed through the opel branch of GM, the falcon we have pretty much made our own , the yanks discontinued makeing falcons decades ago, if i`m not mistaken, and who could argue that grandpa`s axe that(the mighty inline 6 ) we have`nt completly made it our own over 50 years , holden uses their global engines from the US for the commy.
which company is more Australian .......neither, which model is more Australian with 50 years of production of body and at least one power unit for one nameplate/model, it`s a no brainer the Falcon is.

[EB#]

The profits for both GM and Ford head overseas, but the design origins tell
another story..... Can't remember which mag I got this from (Wheels ?),
but the point is pretty clear.

https://www.fordforums.com.au/photos/data/2937/quote.jpg[/IMG]