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#31 | ||
DIY Tragic
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sydney, more than not. I hate it.
Posts: 21,886
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From a philosophical perspective, though - is it not easier on the mind to ultimately identify and forgive an “at fault” human than a machine, should a terrible event play out?
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#32 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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Quote:
Many humans can't even perform simple functions like turning lights on when conditions require it. The reduction in road toll over the long term is a result of car safety improvements. Any further downward trend will come only as a result of further technological improvements. Human behaviour hasn't changed in millennia and won't change.
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#33 | ||
T3/Sprint8
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Location: Australia
Posts: 16,368
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correct prydey and tech and safety arguments etc will just keep go round and round in circles forever and a day.
Thats human - some people are OTT some are not some in the middle. So for eg when the day comes that tech and safety will run everything you do what will the human complain of next ? There will always be accidents even run by machines, there will be line fault that the oncoming car when conditions require headlights on actually are not working. What next my friend ? Considering the increase of pop and cars on the road I'm impressed of the figures back when not much tech was in cars as sad it is to see or numbers re fatalities. Tech isn't the saviour might I add, its useful no doubt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tralia_by_year
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#34 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,891
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Dad's Tank 300 has ELK. Its auto on and has to be turned off every time you start the car.
Personally I hate it, it has on a couple of occasions adjusted the steering more than I had expected, which gave me the feeling of loss of control for a split second. But for Dad, I think it might be a worthwhile feature. He is getting on and sometimes "strays" a little. Mate of mine is a cargo plane pilot. Tells me its very difficult to crash a plane these days due to all the auto safety features. You'd really have to have full intent on doing it or turn off all the features.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rides (past and present) Current: 2004 Ford Falcon 5.4L 3v Barra 220, Manual Past: Mitsubishi Sigma (m), Toyota Seca (m), Toyota Seca SX (m), Toyota Vienta V6 (m), Toyota Soarer 4L v8 (a), BA XR8 ute (m), T3 TE50 (m), BMW Z4 (m) AFF motto - If contrary views trigger, please use ignore button. ![]() |
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#35 | |||
Experienced Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Australasia
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
Humans will continue to do it, but the automated systems still have their problems, one crash is too many as the saying goes. Big issue these days is a lot of safety features are dumbing down drivers with their responsibilities, where do you draw the line. |
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#36 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,630
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Two relatives were commercial pilots, flying everything from Tiger Moths to 747-400s; one was involved in the worldwide peak air safety body. My own industry was Occ Health and Safety. Like in aviation, make sure a safety system works properly before you release it into public use.
My relatives were aghast at this incident when it happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5NXpar4Ouw And sometimes engineering creates it own new situations which it tries to solve with smart software, which may not tested to all situations that could possibly develop in the real world. Ideally a skilled pilot will be able to interpret and overcome any difficulty that can come up, but when they are faced with something novel they may not have been warned to anticipate, and systems that behave erratically or seemingly illogically, disaster can result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQW0upkVus
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#37 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,357
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Quote:
I read a road test report that a vehicle travelling in a 100 Km/h zone suddenly slowed to 60 Km/h. The reason was there was a ute in front of the test vehicle transporting road signs and the test vehicle detected a 60 Km/h sign. |
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#38 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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Quote:
Speed sign recognition by itself won't adjust the cars speed. Also a feature albeit a handy one.
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#39 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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Quote:
Where is the evidence?
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#40 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,812
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Quote:
Nowhere near as annoying as start/stop. |
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#41 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,812
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I don't know what those reviewers were on, but right now, AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself. That's next gen AEB and I don't believe it's on the roads yet. What the cars will do, is increase the braking already applied, to increase deceleration if the car feels it is needed. I've driven cars with ADAS features for nearly twenty years now, and while I fully accept they can be annoying, I don't think a single one was what I'd call dangerous.
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#42 | |||
Barra Turbo > V8
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Posts: 25,745
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Quote:
![]() Our Hyundai has LKA or whatever their system is. Its not intrusive or anything and has never caused any issues. Was strange at first as id never driven a car with it now its hardly noticeable.
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#43 | ||
Experienced Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Australasia
Posts: 7,546
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#44 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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Quote:
So which one is it? Are the systems capable or incapable of assisting drivers? How exactly are drivers being dumbed down? I'm curious. We all drive and we all observe.
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#45 | ||
#neuteredlyfe
![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 10,530
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Guys, this thread has been going so well. Let's not turn it into a thread between two who have a difference of opinion.
Speaking of which, everyone has been posting up their opinion. I have not seen any evidence produced from either side. Also, let's not turn it into a thread where we see who can post up the most links. Everyone, please play nice. |
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#46 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,812
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I think the clue is in the name. these are Driver ASSIST features (Advanced or not). They are not autopilots and the only risk imo is that some people might consider them so, and effectively switch off any decision making process for themselves.
my opinion again - that's the 'dumbing down'. Not the features themselves, but that they make driving so easy for 99% of the time that people zone out, and then the 1% comes along and they have an accident. |
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#47 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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My view is, the road toll is largely trending down. Yes, there will be spikes etc but over the long term it is trending down. Even with the rising population over the years and many more people on the road the road toll generally still tends to trend down over time.
Now you can either believe the govt incentives work (if so, I have a bridge for sale) or you can believe it's largely due to advances in car safety. I strongly believe it's the latter. I'm not advocating for autonomous cars here either. A large percentage of accidents are from people not seeing something or not staying in their lane. I believe ultimately these systems will benefit society and protect people from themselves. Are some systems lacking finesse? Obviously they are given the reports but should they be abandoned? I don't think so.
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#48 | ||
#neuteredlyfe
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Posts: 10,530
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A question that I have just thought about, are people taught how to use all of this technology properly? I don't just mean that a sales person shows you the features when you buy a new car but are new younger (and older for that matter) drivers being taught how and when to use it as part of learning how to drive?
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#49 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 999
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Quote:
My 2014 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV had Forward Collision Mitigation and radar cruise control. Drive southbound on Gympie Rd, Aspley (near Hungry Jacks) in the left hand lane. With no other traffic around and approaching Windrest Ave, it would occasionally beep loudly and then slam on the brakes. The only thing I could put it down to was the FCM picking up on the traffic lights as it view swept across them during the curve. It would also scream out and trigger the brakes occasionally if there the car in front car did a left hand turn, even though I was a good distance behind. Not sure what was causing it, but the 'puter on the Outlander certainly braked checked the odd car behind me in the three years I had it. And when the computer does brake check, as a driver there is nothing you can do about it because the 'puter kills the throttle as well. Video from Mitsubishi about 2018 version of the PHEV saying that the FCM will apply itself. |
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#50 | |||
Looking for clues...
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Location: Morayfield
Posts: 23,196
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Quote:
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#51 | |||||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 999
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Quote:
International Journal of Industrial Ergonomics Volume 86, November 2021, 103213 Shared steering control: How strong and how prompt should the intervention be for a better driving experience? Quote:
And here is some food for thought about these tools and driver engagement. Traffic Psychology and Behaviour Volume 82, October 2021, Pages 400-411 Disengagement from driving when using automation during a 4-week field trial Quote:
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San Jose State University SJSU ScholarWorks Mineta Transportation Institute Publications Drivers’ Response to Scenarios when Driving Connected and Automated Vehicles Compared to Vehicles with and without Driver Assist Technology Quote:
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#52 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canberra
Posts: 13,381
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I will avoid all this crap as long as I can as well as these touch controls.
The bird next to me can't park straight front in to save her life yet I can reverse park using only mirrors in a manual. The amount of times I have seen these tanks with blindspot indicator in the mirror yet push on me is ridiculous. How the **** I can see it but they can't. It's all crap. In theory good but reality is a different thing and lowers standards. |
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#53 | |||
T3/Sprint8
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,368
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Quote:
Correct car safety. More so how much more we have learnt and Govs and Safety awareness bodies advertising and educating people of the wrongs when on the road. The speed limits decreased. Flashing road signs. School zones. Improved dual carriageways nationally. Rest coffee snack stops after 2/3hr driving. Police awareness. Media alerts Mobile alerts I’m sure I have missed many other road aids. Tech in cars is one piece of the puzzle importantly imo it still depends on the user but many now are none the wiser. Look at the type of drivers on the road today. Htf did they pass for one thing - and most driver aids they hardly comprehend in any case. With all the parking sensors in modern cars how many parking scrapes you notice on some lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tickfords T3/TS50 '02 Sprint8 manual Sept 24 '16 Daily Macan GTS "Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Abraham Lincoln" |
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#54 | |||
Barra Turbo > V8
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 25,745
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Quote:
Our car will also apply the brakes in the Collision system is turned on, ive been in the car when its applied the brakes. But it does have some limitations like speed and what not. If you are stopped at the lights and the car in front moves off and you dont it'll remind you ![]()
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#55 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,036
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Quote:
If you turn LKA off with the steering wheel button it still kicks in and it'll bring up warnings randomly on the dash to 'check front safety systems'. It's got all these fancy safety systems but it's cruise control can't manage it's speed up and down hills ![]() |
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#56 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,467
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Quote:
2020 Skoda Fabia $18990 drive away. In lane 2 on Pacific Mway at Eagleby. Leaner driver moved into my lane with out looking. The Skoda applied heavy braking with no input from me and saved an accident. 2022 Ford Puma turned right -car coming the other way - I wasnt going to collide but merely be behind his bumper as he went past. Puma slammed the brakes on with no input from me and then stopped and the stops start turned the engine off with another car coming lol. |
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#57 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,036
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Mass migration from third world types, and we recognise their licences and qualifications now with that new free trade agreement.
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#58 | |||
Rob
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodcroft S.A.
Posts: 21,515
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Quote:
I believe statistically while the road toll is trending down the number of accidents isn't and the numbers of hospitalisations from motor vehicle accidents is actually increasing. This to me highligts that human behaviour doesn't change regardless of any govt scheme etc. The cars are keeping people alive from accidents that once would have been fatal but the number of accidents is still increasing.
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#59 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,630
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While local kids have to go through 120 hours logged, tests, probably lessons, it's head-scratching the double standard.
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#60 | |||
T3/Sprint8
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,368
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Quote:
Sorry mate you’re in another mind set. Speeding had decreased immensely on the roads be it suburbia and more so on freeways. People are aware cops are around, distance cameras, cameras in so many places sure there is still the rabbits who test the boundaries but nothing like in the past. That’s Gov schemes, double demerits weekends might I add. IF you don’t think that has contributed to facilities and or accidents to a % let me know otherwise. These examples are not driver aids and huge deterrents on today’s roads. I mentioned before about type of drivers today talking hospitalisations - tech didn’t warn them or help I guess, if they had modern cars that generally the carpark is between 12/14yrs so a lot have tech that they ignore or switch off or as I said a lot of people who got a license as Franco mentions - all the tech in the world isn’t going to save them or us coming towards them. Anyway I’m done here, tech is good and not imo. We are teaching an entire young population how they are not responsible for their actions but tech and HR will save them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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