Holden Desperate

[tapeworm]

would be gold if the government went out & bought a truck load of Falcons on the back of the Holden 'support Australia' plee, ha

[Eu-GenixX]

but holden is the only Australian car company....

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by tapeworm

would be gold if the government went out & bought a truck load of Falcons on the back of the Holden 'support Australia' plee, ha

That thought had crossed my mind :

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

but holden is the only Australian car company....

Seems that's the way the article was written - a masterpiece of spin!!

[Eu-GenixX]

Indeed... i'm just sick of the sheep mindset of the public brainwashed into believing that holden is all Australian and that is that.. not just the commodore... but anything with a holden badge is perceived to be an Australian car

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Seems that's the way the article was written - a masterpiece of spin!!

Did you even read the article???
:

Or at least the title? Its called "Holden urges state and local governments to buy Australian cars"

Of course its mainly going to be about Holden, they are after all the ones doing the urging

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by kezzer

Did you even read the article???
:

Or at least the title? Its called "Holden urges state and local governments to buy Australian cars"

Of course its mainly going to be about Holden, they are after all the ones doing the urging

Yes, I read the article - over and over before I posted it (afterall I started this thread) and the subtext of what team red were alluding to was inescapable!! Of course I realise that it may be a little too subtle for some.....and that's why we have forums - to discuss what lies beneath any story and/or rumour that has surfaced.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Scotty85

x2. I'm sure that the oil-guzzling ships that bring them here arent terribly "green".

Pretty much, these ships a low speed diesels that burn crude oil in the open sea, they only burn proper diesel when they come into port as they are too dirty and would create lots of pollution.

Originally Posted by burnz

well he should be (press conference)
without puplic support/anger the pollies will go unacountable,
they badger us the buying public to support local buisiness, but dont stand up them self.

I seem to remember in a press conference where ford improved the XT fuel economy and reduced its emission's and he challenged the government to buy the FG XT now that Ford did what the government wanted (instead of buying omegas that released more CO2 and used more fuel).

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Yes, I read the article - over and over before I posted it (afterall I started this thread) and the subtext of what team red were alluding to was inescapable!! Of course I realise that it may be a little too subtle for some.....and that's why we have forums - to discuss what lies beneath any story and/or rumour that has surfaced.

Would ford do the same??? You betcha!!

No marketer in their right mind would boost up the competition.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Hmmm.....smells like desperation to me :

News

Holden urges state and local governments to buy Australian carsBy Stuart Martin
The Advertiser
November 21, 2009 12:01am
Text size
+ - Print Email Share Add to MySpace Add to Digg Add to del.icio.us Add to Post to Facebook Add to Kwoff What are these? CARMAKER Holden has urged local and state governments to ditch their imported vehicles and buy Australian-made instead.
The Victorian and South Australian state governments were the only ones to buy more local than imported cars this year, Holden's new chairman and managing director Alan Batey said in Adelaide yesterday.

The story was much the same in local government, The Advertiser reports.

It comes in the face of a 20 per cent drop in the domestic car market, sparked by the global economic downturn.

Mr Batey said in some government jurisdictions, the ratio was as low as 20 per cent local vehicles.
But he was not making a "blind request" to buy Australian.

"It's been a huge year for Holden on the innovation front - we are building a case to remove every possible reason not to buy an Australian car," he said.

"We're simply just asking for a fair go. I'm going to do everything I can to get ministers, mayors and public servants out of foreign cars and back into local products."

Mr Batey said buying Australian was also an issue for Holden, with the sustainability of local suppliers the company's biggest concern.

"A perfect example is tyres," he said. "With Bridgestone closing its Salisbury facility by next April, we will be unable to put Australian tyres on our cars."
The Holden boss has pledged to continue to support local companies and source as many local components as possible for the new Cruze small car, to be built in Adelaide next year.

Mr Batey called the decision to build the Cruze in Adelaide "perhaps Holden's most innovative decision".

"It is a bold plan to return to small-car production but we need to do it, we need to do it now. We know it is the right decision," he said.

Meanwhile, the federal and state governments yesterday announced an $11.7 million funding injection for SA's manufacturing sector.

The money, from the $40 million South Australian Innovation and Investment Fund established in response to the closure of Mitsubishi's Tonsley Park assembly plant in March last year, will be used to generate $78.3 million in private manufacturing and create up to 476 new jobs.

Grants range from $250,000 to $2.5 million and were made to assist the establishment and expansion of manufacturing capabilities. Eleven manufacturers will receive funding for projects, including:

DEVELOPMENT of an integrated research and development engineering, test and manufacturing facility for a new range of drill rigs (Boart Longyear, Lonsdale, 67 jobs)

BUILDING a facility to manufacture environmentally friendly building blocks (Benex Technologies, Lonsdale, 70 jobs)

BUILDING a mass production facility to manufacture Modpod demountable and flat-pack accommodation, storage and service solutions (Modra Hayes, Warooka, 80 jobs).

Federal Innovation Minister Senator Kim Carr and Treasurer Kevin Foley said the first $14.4 million of funding, announced in February, was generating a total investment of $63 million and creating about 430 new jobs.

Senator Carr said the competition for support from the fund had been fierce.

Like that matters. How about quoting the local content of Holden Commodore. Clown! Like Turnball said, "stop treating the Australian public like mugs."

[jixel 78]

Jesus you arent allowed to change the decades old view around here. Hey lets just keep building large inefficient sedans that run on petrol while the rest of the world makes do with `little` engines. Then when the minority lobby groups and the greenies slam the gov`t for driving around in Statesmans and big Fords and they start buying Camrys (read well marketed Holdens with a`little`engine) the trusty old dinosaur 4.0 will be filling the used car lots to the brim.Because they use too much bloody fuel! In a fleet application, the fuel bills show their true colours when it comes to efficiency. Fleets are where Ford has dropped the ball even with E-Gas because its engines are too big. Biggest fleets? Government.

[Brazen]

Ford and Holden just need to bide their time until the locally made Focus and Cruze come onto the scene.

The small car segment is the biggest! And with no locally made vehicles the biggest seller is the Corrolla. And the Corrolla out of the whole car market has actually been the biggest seller a few times this year.

Once the Focus and Cruze are made here, they will get a huge amount of media interest which will boost their profiles, they will also overnight get tens of thousands of government and corporate fleet sales. They will also steal huge midsize and large car fleet sales due to some fleets having strict Buy Australia polices which havn't downsized....yet.

The cars themselves will be great profit earners, as their development and component scales are spred over hundreds of thousands of cars a year built in many factories. No more ford and Holden having to beg to further develop cars, they just simply plug into the global developments.

Also as small cars are bought by a huge amount of private buyers, the average transaction prices are very good for the car makers especially compared to the fleet driven large car market. I have heard people spending up to 40 grand on Mazda 3 Sp25s with all the fruit (insane).

Also local manufacture will dramatically increase the economies of scale of local factories, and help amortize fixed costs over a dramatically increased production scale. Ford especially will benefit, with the Falcon perhaps losing the wagon and having no export market I cant see in todays world building only 2000 Falcon sedans a month being sustainable, but add another 2500 to 3000 Focuses a month and the factory looks a lot more healthier.

The Focus and Cruze sized cars appeal to uni students, families, singles, couples, middle aged and retirees. The segment has a great diversified demographic spread and is a great market to be in. Local production will mean the car makers can perfectly target to Australian tastes like adding a sports Cruze or a leather and sunroof equipped Focus, or special editions..etc.

And finally the Cruze and Focus have electric only and hybrid versions coming out, coupled with their existing efficent petrol and diesel engines, this will ensure that the Australian automotive sector can ride the next wave into the future.

So whilst I find it disgusting that governments would ever buy foreign if there are good Aussie made alternatives, I reckon that over the next couple of years Holden and Ford will have a new boom time!

[Lukeyson]

as the aussie dollar is tipped to go to around $1.03 US next year, that HAS to hurt their exports all over the place?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by whales

Why pick on cars, everything the government buy is imported just about and then they preach to the public that they should buy Australian. For an example the Vic. Gov. are buying trains from germany or somewhere like that when there is a company in Dandenong that build them.
It all comes down to the dollar

Yeah we bought a multi billion desalination plant that can't do the hard yards. It is a great artificial reef though, with fish stocks on the increase around it.

[Eu-GenixX]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Ford and Holden just need to bide their time until the locally made Focus and Cruze come onto the scene.

The only problem with that is... that focus is not being built here afaik...

so from what you are saying... Holden are in for a massive boom

[Chopped]

Poster is desperate to rubbish Holden (must be school holidays).

Both Holden AND Ford need the support of fleet purchases - The public don't buy enough. - no fleet buys/or export programs and you can say goodbye to your commodores and Falcons.

So yep, typical desperate Holden rubbish < or is that half the posts on this forum.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

The only problem with that is... that focus is not being built here afaik...

so from what you are saying... Holden are in for a massive boom

Ah ok, yeah I looked it up. I hadnt heard any news of it being cancelled, as I first heard the news of the Focus a couple of years back. Its a shame as the 2011 Focus is supposed to be a stunning car.

Well im probably wrong then about how it would be a boom if Ford has instead decided to cancel it, especially with the potential huge amount of Green Car Fund money on the table. This would have been a once in a generational chance to get back into small car making, so if its not worth it then its not worth it.

To turn down the chance to get Ford AU up to capacity must mean there was a good reason not to do it as its extremely inefficent to have a factory not outputting to its potential, perhaps there are big Falcon export plans coming up??

[SB076]

I think its sad that Holden had to urge the government to buy locally made cars. After all, this is the same government (past and previous) that have invested a lot of money in the car industry. Not to mention the government receives its income from the tax payer and currently the largest employer of people is the manufacturing industry. Therefore without taking wages of other industries into account you could suggest that the manufacturing industry provides a significant income stream to the government. Yet the government continues to send jobs offshore and purchase product made from overseas - its crazy.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by SB076

I think its sad that Holden had to urge the government to buy locally made cars. After all, this is the same government (past and previous) that have invested a lot of money in the car industry. Not to mention the government receives its income from the tax payer and currently the largest employer of people is the manufacturing industry. Therefore without taking wages of other industries into account you could suggest that the manufacturing industry provides a significant income stream to the government. Yet the government continues to send jobs offshore and purchase product made from overseas - its crazy.

Honestly the best result is to write an email to your local MP or the Minister of Finance in your state. An email takes about 5 minutes, but it means that someone from the office will look into your concerns, you'd be suprised at how they take these things quite seriously if your concerns are justified.

Mention that the government has a social or economic obligation to support the community they operate in, which includes supporting local manufactures.

Buying Australian is an issue I feel very strong about.
Four years back I wrote a quick email to my bank after seeing its logos on imported Subaru Libertys, I mentioned its social obligation to the community blah, blah blah and thay they should be, where possible be buying Australian. They actually wrote back saying that Australian-made will be given a higher priority in their tendering process on their cars. Eventually they swapped over to Adelaide built Mitsubishi 380s.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Honestly the best result is to write an email to your local MP or the Minister of Finance in your state. An email takes about 5 minutes, but it means that someone from the office will look into your concerns, you'd be suprised at how they take these things quite seriously if your concerns are justified.

Mention that the government has a social or economic obligation to support the community they operate in, which includes supporting local manufactures.

Buying Australian is an issue I feel very strong about.
Four years back I wrote a quick email to my bank after seeing its logos on imported Subaru Libertys, I mentioned its social obligation to the community blah, blah blah and thay they should be, where possible be buying Australian. They actually wrote back saying that Australian-made will be given a higher priority in their tendering process on their cars. Eventually they swapped over to Adelaide built Mitsubishi 380s.

Havent sent an email but have met face to face with pollies (both sides) - wouldnt say it was a complete waste of time - they are sympathetic, but at the end of the day nothing changes. There are lots of issues involved including social issues - however I still beleive that as a tax payer the money the government receives from tax payers should be spent on local products where possible. Will take your advise and put something in writing as you said it doesnt take long.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Ah ok, yeah I looked it up. I hadnt heard any news of it being cancelled, as I first heard the news of the Focus a couple of years back. Its a shame as the 2011 Focus is supposed to be a stunning car.

Well im probably wrong then about how it would be a boom if Ford has instead decided to cancel it, especially with the potential huge amount of Green Car Fund money on the table. This would have been a once in a generational chance to get back into small car making, so if its not worth it then its not worth it.

To turn down the chance to get Ford AU up to capacity must mean there was a good reason not to do it as its extremely inefficent to have a factory not outputting to its potential, perhaps there are big Falcon export plans coming up??

Focus was cancelled as they would be losing money on every car that was built here. This is why in its place the Ecoboost 4cyl Turbo will be built, and green money funded.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Focus was cancelled as they would be losing money on every car that was built here. This is why in its place the Ecoboost 4cyl Turbo will be built, and green money funded.

Which is why, with the Australian dollar so high against the $US, I can't for the life of me work out how Holden can make a profit out of the Cruze.

Toyota can't make a profit with an Australian Corolla, they want Kluger. Ford can't with Focus, they're making an I4T Falcon. Unless Holden are cooking the books, their figures on Cruze are shaky at best.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Which is why, with the Australian dollar so high against the $US, I can't for the life of me work out how Holden can make a profit out of the Cruze.

Toyota can't make a profit with an Australian Corolla, they want Kluger. Ford can't with Focus, they're making an I4T Falcon. Unless Holden are cooking the books, their figures on Cruze are shaky at best.

Run the Cruze here for a while then import it from Korea again, during building the Cruze a 4cyl commo will be developed? Maybe the green fund money was required urgently by the US.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Which is why, with the Australian dollar so high against the $US, I can't for the life of me work out how Holden can make a profit out of the Cruze.

Toyota can't make a profit with an Australian Corolla, they want Kluger. Ford can't with Focus, they're making an I4T Falcon. Unless Holden are cooking the books, their figures on Cruze are shaky at best.

I dont know, but if car makers can make money producing economy cars in expensive Germany, Italy France, England, Japan & the US, I reckon they can make money here.

Toyota never said they couldnt make money on a local Corolla, but what they said back in the 90s is that it was more profitable competing in the massive large car segment rather than price-focused small car segment, which is why they replaced their limited factory and development investments in the Corolla with the Avalon. 15 years later with the market a very different beast, maybe they wished they stuck with the Corolla.

[cosmo20btt]

Holden can't afford to build the Cruze, as there was no press release that I know of that say's that Government Motors has given then 450 million dollars to Holden let alone that they cannot give them that now as they have a loan with the US stipulating that no money goes overseas while in debt to the Government. If any one has any info on this I am quite welcome to here it.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont know, but if car makers can make money producing economy cars in expensive Germany, Italy France, England, Japan & the US, I reckon they can make money here.

Toyota never said they couldnt make money on a local Corolla, but what they said back in the 90s is that it was more profitable competing in the massive large car segment rather than price-focused small car segment, which is why they replaced their limited factory and development investments in the Corolla with the Avalon. 15 years later with the market a very different beast, maybe they wished they stuck with the Corolla.

Toyota almost threatened to pull out if the dollar got to high to Rudd when he first got into office ( maybe that is why he gave them 38million dollars for nothing).

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont know, but if car makers can make money producing economy cars in expensive Germany, Italy France, England, Japan & the US, I reckon they can make money here.

Toyota never said they couldnt make money on a local Corolla, but what they said back in the 90s is that it was more profitable competing in the massive large car segment rather than price-focused small car segment, which is why they replaced their limited factory and development investments in the Corolla with the Avalon. 15 years later with the market a very different beast, maybe they wished they stuck with the Corolla.

Actually, mate, they have.

Toyota were caught napping when Gorman killed off the I6, and started the proceedings to manufacture Focus here. Toyota were very vocal stating that they could not make the figures stack up regarding a local Corolla, and they didn't know how Ford could.

Toyota Australia are hungry for the cash cow that is Kluger to be built locally.

Daniel - I don't think the Australian government are that stupid. Firstly, Krudd gave Holden $200 Million, as the Commonwealth bank walked away from them. The Australian government would be expecting some sort of return on investment for that. Secondly, Holden have kept half of their employees on half wages every second week, so that there is enough skilled workers to slap the Cruze together. And lastly, think of the investment in getting Elizabeth ready for this car. Unless Holden cancel the production of the car now, it is almost a sure thing to go ahead. Whether this acts as Holden's saviour, or if this is the straw that will break the Camel's back, we are yet to find out. I personally hope it works out for them, but I won't be too concerned, if, like the Local Vectra, this fails after about eighteen months.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Actually, mate, they have.

Toyota were caught napping when Gorman killed off the I6, and started the proceedings to manufacture Focus here. Toyota were very vocal stating that they could not make the figures stack up regarding a local Corolla, and they didn't know how Ford could.

Toyota Australia are hungry for the cash cow that is Kluger to be built locally.

Daniel - I don't think the Australian government are that stupid. Firstly, Krudd gave Holden $200 Million, as the Commonwealth bank walked away from them. The Australian government would be expecting some sort of return on investment for that. Secondly, Holden have kept half of their employees on half wages every second week, so that there is enough skilled workers to slap the Cruze together. And lastly, think of the investment in getting Elizabeth ready for this car. Unless Holden cancel the production of the car now, it is almost a sure thing to go ahead. Whether this acts as Holden's saviour, or if this is the straw that will break the Camel's back, we are yet to find out. I personally hope it works out for them, but I won't be too concerned, if, like the Local Vectra, this fails after about eighteen months.

I'd say holden will get away with it Andrew....the Cruze will sell in subtantial numbers because it a 4 cylinder and its locally built (so fleets will love it). It might very well be very average as a car (that is assuming holden can improve it off its very average base) but it should sell alright if Holden sells lots of base cars witih bugger all kit to fleets with a sizeable discount. Its big enough to challenge for the camry market so i think fleet wise it will give toyota a reall hurry up.

The problem is what happens to commodore. Holden has rabbited on about how the sportwagon sells so well but how many came at the expense of VE sedan?? Territory delivered over 50% of its sales (when it launched at least) as new to ford sales. So the Falcon wagon didn't get hit anywhere near as hard as Ford and others thought it would. The fleets stayed with the wagon and the tezza bought in alot of non-ford buyers. The cruze may bring in some new private buyer sales (who would of went for other small/medium cars eg. mazda) but to get the necessary throughput to justify the plant investment and any sort of development program (if there even is a sizeable local input at all) holden will have to target fleets. Given the VE is much more fleet focussed than Falcon (in the current generation) this will hurt the Commodore just when any chance of exports is looking very shakey (apart from cop cars.....which can't make much money for Holden anyway).

With all this talk of the Falcon 'withering on the vine' and being replaced by mondeo etc. i'm thinking that the VE is more likely to go this way if Holden aren't careful. They will end up like Toyota...building cars based on imported designs. The minimal investment in the VE other than the SIDI engines is the first sign that things are very tight RE investment. I'm not saying Ford is necessarilty any better off RE investment in post FG Falcon either, but to suggest (as the media often does) that higher sales = greater viability longer term is rubbish. Holden just introduced another degree of complexity and cost to its local production portfolio and it might very well bite them in the butt RE longer term commodore sales while their at it.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Actually, mate, they have.

Toyota were caught napping when Gorman killed off the I6, and started the proceedings to manufacture Focus here. Toyota were very vocal stating that they could not make the figures stack up regarding a local Corolla, and they didn't know how Ford could.

Back in Jan 09 Toyota said that the Corolla will not fit on to the current production line at Altona which is set up for the Camry and V6 Aurion and Toyota Australia did not believe that it could 'make enough money' on a Corolla-sized car despite Holden and Ford (at the time) committing otherwise.

To me they are not neccesarily saying that building the Corolla wouldnt be profitable, they are just saying its not profitable enough.

Companies have only so much investments dollars floating around, if they can make $12 profit per $100 spent making the Corolla or $24 per $100 spent making a Kluger of course they will choose the Kluger. Also it may just be cheaper to import the Corolla than to build locally even if the local car is still profitable. Remember in business its about the best bang for your buck.

In fact I cant even find any info that Ford says the local Focus wouldnt be profitable, the only mention is that the business case couldnt be made. Who knows, their internal figures might have shown they would lose $5000 per every car or simply it might have meant the extra sales of local production would not offset the cheaper costs of importing from Thailand even if the local car was still profitable.

Personally I think as long as the local Focus was still profitable, the extra costs of building locally would have a been a smart investment in securing Ford Australia's manufacturing future.

Its very scary the idea that getting a huge amount of Green Car Funds, slapping some CKD kits together in a factory screaming for production and in the process guranteeing a substantial amount of government and other fleet orders is not profitable in this country, especially as labour costs represent a relatively small percentage of a car makers costs.

I dont work in the industry so many of you guys would know more than me, but I do know how (big) business works. Just because a project does not go ahead does not mean that the project was automatically 'unprofitable'. It just means MORE money could be made some other way which is what business is all about.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I dont work in the industry so many of you guys would know more than me, but I do know how (big) business works. Just because a project does not go ahead does not mean that the project was automatically 'unprofitable'. It just means MORE money could be made some other way which is what business is all about.

Indeed. Fact is that Ford globally could see a lower overall production cost by just building focus in a free trade asian country (prob thailand) rather then in aus. So even though they agreed to give Focus production to australia they were probably quite happy when Ford Aus decided they didn't want it anymore. Fact is that Ford Aus knew it could source them for less money just by importing them.....so why not. The small car segment is very price sensitive so its no point going ahead with it if you can't sell the resulting car for a profit....locally built or otherwise.

Fact is that what Ford is doing now, whether by design or fluke, it atcually one of the most profitable setups you could posibly have locally. Not dependent on (shrinking and marginally profitable) exports but having a very rich local model mix. Combine an almost 'too order' production schedule and you can see why they are relatively happy with how things are now. If they ramp up production next year to some degree and the sales keep up (which they will if they dont' go crazy) then you can get the throughput whil keeping up the profits. My point about holden was the excact opposite. In return for sticking by an ailing GM they were thrown the cruze bone. Whether it sells or not, i highly doubt it will make them any more money profit wise then simply doing what ford did and going after the private buyer as well as fleets. Plus right sizing its production. Of course they couldn't do the latter because they were so buggered they couldn't afford to pay the redundancy payments.....

[Stattic]

Originally Posted by jixel 78

Surely Ford could have reduced the capacity of its locally made six to draw a `greener` market? I think this four cylinder Falcon rubbish is just a spin...Holden hit the nail on the head with its smaller number V6, and Ford has missed the biggest opportunity by not reducing capacity of its six banger alongside the LPG 4.0 and Turbo, they just dont need 4.0 litres of natmo six. Jesus even the 4.0T doesnt NEED that capacity.Three litres is plenty, and the software to make it so alongside the hardware cant be THAT expensive, can it?

wow. that has to be the most uninformed rubbish ive ever read on AFF
looks like somebody has been watching too many holden commercials