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#31 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NSW
Posts: 191
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There are pros and cons in using ethanol based fuels, but saying the fuel is rubbish is wrong!
Corrosive – Yes ethanol is corrosive, but so is unleaded. Fuel companies are required to use corrosion inhibitors in both fuels. Forests will be replaced with ethanol crops – you seriously think they will knock down forests with ethanol crops? Even if they did, the plants that replaced the trees would still produce oxygen, so we would still have air to breath. hygroscopic – it will absorb a small amount water from the air in an open container over a long period, but in a fuel tank vapors are created which allow only minimal air into the tank and therefore only a minute amount of water absorbed into the fuel over a long period of time. Fuel consumption – You will definitely use more fuel with any mix of ethanol, but we are using a renewable source of fuel and as technology gets better in producing this fuel we will be able to create the fuel from just about any waste vegetation. So until we can start growing oil, ethanol sounds like a pretty good alternative. |
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#32 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central Vic
Posts: 3,724
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If you want power LPI
if you want anti knock LPI if you want a cleaner engine LPI if you want economy LPI If you want everything LPI I think that just about covers it. ![]()
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#33 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pit Lane
Posts: 11,867
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Quote:
Good info in this post and is what I would expect from a flex fuel car. Being flex fuel the ecu knows what the ethanol content of the fuel is and changes the fuel delivery to suit, it also adjust the spark tables to take advantage of the higher octane fuel and deliver more power. Unfortunately this can only happen on a flex fuel car so just adding high ethanol content fuel to a car not designed for it can be a pointless exercise depending on the cost of the fuel, because any fuel with ethanol in it will need more fuel to do the same amount of work when compared to unleaded petrol, anyone who says different has not recorded their data correctly. Once a car is custom tuned to suit the fuel it can experience a power increase. Another thing to remember is that E10 fuels vary with their octane rating, it can be 95, 98 or even 100 octane. The ford ECU does not add spark based on a higher octane fuel being used, it will only pull spark when a knock event has been identified.
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#34 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NSW
Posts: 191
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Quote:
For Gas = 46MJ/kg / 14.7 (stoich) = 3.13MJ/kg of air fuel mixture For E85 = 33MJ/kg / 9.77 (stoich) = 3.38MJ/kg of air fuel mixture |
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#35 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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![]() Energy negative, massively taxpayer subsidised fuel additives are never the answer...and those who think mandating an ethanol level in all fuel and doing away with "normal" unleaded will be in for a nasty shock when the government drops the subsidy once everyone has no choice but to use it...as they did with LP Gas... |
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#36 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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Quote:
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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#37 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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There seem to be quite a number of mechanical and chemical engineers in this thread.
Almost all of the posts are partly right and partly wrong. Engines are optimised for a particular fuel type which is why some are slightly different while others are totally different. Fuels have many more characteristics than "how much power can I get before detonation" and no one fuel is superior to all others in every way. Jet dragsters run on kerosene. Top fuelers run on Nitro Methane. Here is a point to consider. If the law was changed so that all domestic vehicle fuels i.e. ULP, PULP, 98, E10, E85, LPG and Diesel were all fixed at exactly the same price per litre which fuel would you run your car on? |
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#38 | ||
Youngling
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Rydalmere, Sydney
Posts: 145
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Shhhh don't tell anyone but I work for a Very large company that manufactures Malt for Beer... We export world wide and sell to Australian Brewers... We germinate Barley and then roast it into Malt. The bi product ( or Colmings ) gets used to produce none other than ETHENOL!!! But yeah its a secret for some reason
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HOPE OUR LUCK DOSENT END NOW!!
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#39 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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Quote:
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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#40 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central Vic
Posts: 3,724
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LPG subsidised ?
That's news to me, seeing it is a free 'waste' product that had to be 'disposed' of. Even after the full tax is eventually applied I expect it to remain a great option at lest in Melbourne and surrounds.
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#41 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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Quote:
gas is the same price as diesel per kilometre. (until tax kick in) then the oil Co will parity it.
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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#42 | ||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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People whinging about ethanol being subsidised wont change anything.
If you are building a high powered forced induction car then E85 has no peer for power unless you count E98. Its nothing like Methanol for corrosiveness, if you update the lines and filters the rest of the car is quite compatible the only thing is keep an eye on your exhaust housings after a few years in short stop-start trips. The upside of Ethanol is emissions.... with precious metals getting harder to find and therefore more expensive the cost effectivness of ethanol gets a shot in the arm. For those worried about the $ per litre... even when the subsidy ends and the price goes up to the same as gasoline you can always revert to PULP as a daily fuel and just switch the Ethanol in for dyno/track... its a lot harder to do that when you go dedicated LPG. Diesel (as good as it is) will only get more expensive to own and operate as the downward pressure on NOX emissions starts to take its toll.... Diesel emission technology is getting hammered right now with so many attempts to meet ever tightening targets.... the genuine DPF's on on-highway trucks are $10,000 to replace if they fail self-clean test. Its a con?.... compared to what?.... The rediculous roadrules we must endure? The amount of tax we pay in Australia between income, GST and capital gains? The amount of entitlement that an asylum seeker is eligible for?.. more than a taxpaying pensioner? The stamp duties on houses and cars, forcing the price of an import up over 50%? The exorbitant price of land thesedays?... $250,000+ for 450m2 over 30kms from the city? Ethanol is the least of our worries, especially when compared to all of the above it has some benefits to it. Daniel |
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#43 | ||
Oo\===/oO
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tamworth
Posts: 11,348
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I find it funny that the Model T was a flex fuel vehicle...it could run on Ethanol...until prohibition...
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#44 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Of course these are even sillier than LPG with regard to logistics......... |
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#45 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Perth, Northern Suburbs
Posts: 4,881
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Industrial Ethanol in Australia is mostly produced from waste, grain and cane by-products of other processes.
Debate about which fuel is best for performance are pointless, as it depends entirely on what your engine was built for. An unleaded engine running on LPG will be less powerful and less “economic” per litre, however the same engine optimised to run on LPG produces more power and better economy. It is entirely the same for ethanol blends. The point with ethanol is that it is a renewable resource. When all the fossil fuel is depleted, I don’t know if biofuel capacity will be enough to match current usage levels, but at least it will be something. Often times government needs to subsidise emergent technologies to encourage uptake and investment in R&D. If the government had not subsidised LPG installations, we may not now have the brilliant ecoli engines.
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#46 | ||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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Yes Liquid Hyd and Oxy is the go... but im waiting for them to appear at the bowser... i'm told WA will get E85 on pump before them.
I wont hold my breath for any of them. Daniel |
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#47 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,010
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Quote:
E85 is great, when you have a car which is tuned for it, which most likely would only be something thats got forced induction happening. For me, diesel all the way ![]() The problem with the latest diesels is all this crap like SCR systems (Volkswagen Ad Blue, Mercedes Blue Efficiency etc), I think its called "urea injection" where you have this fluid which needs to be replaced every service for emissions regulations, and DPFs. These seem to be half assed and rushed at the moment and cause problems, until they perfect the technology it seems emissions regulations are getting too hard too fast. |
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#48 | |||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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Quote:
LPG... well people say it makes a lot of power but I havent seen it done successfully yet, heavy stoich liquid fuels still rule the dyno and the blacktop. Daniel |
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#49 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,010
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If you want to see high powered diesel, check out a "Diesel Power" magazine in the news agent, it seems those Cummins 6bt 5.9L diesel engines can make around 500hp with a few mods and more even still depending on how fat your wallet is (isn't that true with everything though?).
Pretty crazy seeing something like a full weight Dodge Ram which can run a 12 second quarter mile. |
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#50 | |||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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Quote:
![]() Its a shame what the world is doing to diesel, its a truly remarkable fuel with the amount of energy that can be harnessed from each litre. Daniel |
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#51 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Fossil fuels like oil and coal are staggeringly energy-positive. That's why they're pretty much irreplaceable in a real sense, until some sort of catalyst can be developed to make ethanol and hydrogen production cheaper and easier and lower the energy needed to produce it to a fraction of the energy contained in the end product.
Hydrogen is an amazing fuel, but has some rather large problems...storage is a real issue, and the tank in your car is massive, not to mention with current production methods it is also extremely energy negative (takes more energy to make than you get in the end product). |
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#52 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: VIC
Posts: 788
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Quote:
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...9/le090507.htm
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#53 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Perth, Northern Suburbs
Posts: 4,881
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Quote:
The only way to strip the oxygen is an anaerobic reaction which would then produce Carbon. Ethanol is a clean fuel because it’s carbon chains are simple, and it contains no sulphur, nitrogen, or metals. It’s carbon neutral, not because it produces less carbon emissions, but because it is only releasing carbon that has been captured from the atmosphere. As I said, making claims about the performance of ethanol fuelled engines against petrol is irrelevant. For starters the definition of “petrol” is very broad and so could include some of the more exotic fuels. Secondly, nobody CARES how much power your dragster is putting out, the debate is about using ethanol as a mass market fuel. Finally, as I said, it depends on what your engine is designed for. If you put E85 or 100 into an engine designed to run on regular unleaded, it may not even match the regular performance, but bump the cam and compression up, and the higher RON fuels come into their own. It’s my limited understanding that the best engines for “flexi” fuelling are turbo-charged with ECU controlled boost. Saab was a long term pioneer of such engines.
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#54 | |||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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Quote:
I didnt say the engine would make 35% more power the oxygen isnt there for that purpose. No, the claims are not irrelevant because if you want to make 400hp from a 2L turbo engine you wont be able to do it with an OEM durability on 92-98 octane gasoline... but you can on E85 ethanol. Nobody cares about power and the uses of Ethanol?..... stick your head in the F6 and XR6T subforum for half an hour mate. Daniel |
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#55 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pit Lane
Posts: 11,867
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LPG does not produce the same power as E85 when the engine is tuned for the fuel
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#56 | ||
Performance moderator
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Location: St Clair..N.S.W
Posts: 14,875
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Should state what car / engine and combo we have..
I highly doubt a XA/ XB 250 would run very good on it.. But any late model forced induction car will.. The only thing a bout Ethanol is the pricing ... That's NOT an ethanol issue its the service stations and petrol companies.. Another thing to consider is I would rather our hard earned $$ stay in this country than some rich Arab.. Imo Ethanol fuels should be in competition to petrol companies to encourage competition.. The oil companies are taking us for a ride with bugger all competition !! Gov doesn't care too much they are STILL getting their cut $$..
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Real cars are not driven by front wheels,real cars lift them!!... BABYS ARE BOTTLE FED, REAL MEN GET BLOWN. Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! Dart 330ci block turbo black pearl EBXR8 482 rwkw.. Daily driver GTE FG.. Projects http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=107711 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...8+turbo&page=4 |
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#57 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central Vic
Posts: 3,724
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Drag racing is a bit specific.
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#58 | ||
I miss my wheelbarrow
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bluestreak Performance
Posts: 11,500
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And you would therefore argue the merits of the fuel on that?
A 20:1 compression, direct injection spark ignition engine on E98 ethanol is more ecomical than a 11:1 pulp engine.... yet nobody offers one? As mentioned further up ^^ if the technology is subsidised to allow its growth then the ensuing consumer uptake can drive further technology breakthoughs and improvments. LPG would be nowhere without this strategy. I would love to see Ethanol continue to expand for the reasons Graeme listed above, as well as the fact that LPG and Ethanol will be two products that allow humanity to breach the gulf between Fossil Fuels and the "next big thing" whatever that may be. Daniel |
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#59 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Of course this would really fall on its bum during the next dry period of the climate cycle. We have the worlds largest deposits of Uranium. How about using some of that and working on technology to make it safe. Now I know that the greenie loonies will just scream "radiation, hiroshima, chenobyl, fukashima" and run around in circles singing songs and waving plackards made out of recycled dole cheques but there was once a time when most ships sank whenever there was a storm and many jet airliners exploded in flight and infection killed most surgical patients etc. etc. etc. Hey if we can make safe uranium powered cars then WE will be the energy barons and the "world police" will be invading Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra to oust the insane dictators....... |
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#60 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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