Details firm on Ford’s Ranger PHEV

[Captain Stubing]

I'm not a fan, we rented a PHEV in the UK, when we plugged it in to charge we got 80 miles out of it before it switched to petrol. I bought my missus a hybrid Santa Fe, we don't plug it in, it recharges while we are doing our thing, gets almost 1000 km per tank.

I don't want a PHEV. The Hybrid model seems to work well.

[Big_Daz]

Bit of a thread mine, but thought id share in case people havent seen it.

https://www.ford.com.au/showroom/electric/phev/ranger/

Looks like PHEV will be available on XLT/Sport and Wildtrak trims, with a new, i assume, limited edition...

Pricing to come..

[b0son]

Comments dont cast Ford in a good light, if they're trying to hide the price hike behind a non-applicable import tariff. If this thing costs $10k more than regular, its dead in the water.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

Comments dont cast Ford in a good light, if they're trying to hide the price hike behind a non-applicable import tariff. If this thing costs $10k more than regular, its dead in the water.

Will take a while to make back the money vs fuel with a PHEV. Much longer than a pure EV.

Though it might qualify for the 0% FBT which might make the price rise less of an issue.

[kypez]

Just checked and from 1st April this year, PHEV isn't considered a low emissions vehicle and won't get the 0% FBT benefits. Oh well, Ford is late to the party again.

[jpd80]

It gets back to who will buy a PHEV Ranger and why.

I can see benefits with on site power for tradies and maybe some campers….

If it’s purchased purely to save money with fuel economy, then I don’t see that as being a major saving
Unless the vehicle does a lot of city stop/go driving and overnight charging, the 2.0 diesel may be a better option…
Will servicing an Ecoboost work out cheaper?
Definitely avoids Diesel emissions/regen maintenance issues if doing a lot of short trips..

A real buyer would be more informative telling us why they want one

[b0son]

If it had decent EV range, I would certainly consider one. Being able to drive on EV during the week, but revert to petrol for camping/towing, would have been ideal. The stop/start around town punishes big heavy cars. The car that most intrigues me at the moment is the Haval H6GT PHEV. 180km of EV range means you need only ever use petrol as a fallback. I'd have thought this is the obvious way to go with a PHEV, yet its only seemingly used as torque fill for the stop/start in many models.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

If it had decent EV range, I would certainly consider one. Being able to drive on EV during the week, but revert to petrol for camping/towing, would have been ideal. The stop/start around town punishes big heavy cars. The car that most intrigues me at the moment is the Haval H6GT PHEV. 180km of EV range means you need only ever use petrol as a fallback. I'd have thought this is the obvious way to go with a PHEV, yet its only seemingly used as torque fill for the stop/start in many models.

The BYD (not sure about the Havel) use electric motors which is a better drive (instant torque). The Ranger is a series hybrid so it will feel gutless on EV only mode. The petrol engine needs to work as a generator to enjoy driving a PHEV in EV only mode.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

The BYD (not sure about the Havel) use electric motors which is a better drive (instant torque). The Ranger is a series hybrid so it will feel gutless on EV only mode. The petrol engine needs to work as a generator to enjoy driving a PHEV in EV only mode.

Even working as a generator, a single motor won't really have the performance

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Even working as a generator, a single motor won't really have the performance

True. The BYD uses two units (front and back) and the petrol is just a generator. Ford has approached this with an ancient lens.

Using electric motors is also so much simpler. No need for tail shafts, low range, etc. 100% torque at 0 RPM, you don't need low range anymore.

[XR Martin]

No gearing though.
100% torque with 1:1 drive is far less than something with a gearbox and axle.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

No gearing though.
100% torque with 1:1 drive is far less than something with a gearbox and axle.

They work on a reduction gear. So no, not 1:1.

The RWD 3 is a 9.0X:1
Plaid S is 7.56:1

[TasRanger]

The torque of an EV is impressive and the reduction ratio of 5 to 9:1 is adequate for most driving but its nothing to the 40 to 60:1 reduction ratio you get in a low ratio equipped vehicle through a transmission-transfer-diff setup.

The multiplication of torque in conventional setup is far superior for off road driving.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by kypez

They work on a reduction gear. So no, not 1:1.

The RWD 3 is a 9.0X:1
Plaid S is 7.56:1

We're talking about BYD and you've got to bring up Tesla. You do this in every thread.

BYD is torque deficient in offroad situations, no one said anything about Tesla. Give it a damn rest.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

We're talking about BYD and you've got to bring up Tesla. You do this in every thread.



BYD is torque deficient in offroad situations, no one said anything about Tesla. Give it a damn rest.

BYD still uses a reduction gear. You're fundamentally incorrect that it is a 1:1 ratio.

It might need more torque, sure, but it's not 1:1. 340 Nm isn't a great amount of torque even if it's available earlier.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by TasRanger

The torque of an EV is impressive and the reduction ratio of 5 to 9:1 is adequate for most driving but its nothing to the 40 to 60:1 reduction ratio you get in a low ratio equipped vehicle through a transmission-transfer-diff setup.

The multiplication of torque in conventional setup is far superior for off road driving.

Have a watch if you like to change your opinion. The lads take the F150 Lightning off-road

https://youtu.be/dIF5wDDMx7Q?si=JPb6CSz5FYZvCRah

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by kypez

Have a watch if you like to change your opinion. The lads take the F150 Lightning off-road

https://youtu.be/dIF5wDDMx7Q?si=JPb6CSz5FYZvCRah

Oh dear your rambling is obnoxious, I’m going to block you.

Enjoy your EV obsession

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Oh dear your rambling is obnoxious, I’m going to block you.



Enjoy your EV obsession

Awww... Did I hurt your ICE feelings?! Poor baby

I literally was discussing PHEV and others introduced the Havel unit of electric drive. The video is about the benefit of an electric motor and not about EVs (as was the discussion of the petrol engine being used as a generator).

I have the reduction values of the Tesla units because I knew them of hand. The BYD units would use similar reduction gears as they do and not 1:1 as suggested.

[XR Martin]

I didn't technically say the BYD had 1:1 ratio.
I just said a direct drive even with 100% torque available at idle is far less than a vehicle with transmission gears and an axle.
Low range is mostly pointless in even modern ICE vehicles with 500-600nm.
Back in the N/A diesel days it was essential if the most you've got is 250nm in a short rev band.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

I didn't technically say the BYD had 1:1 ratio.
I just said a direct drive even with 100% torque available at idle is far less than a vehicle with transmission gears and an axle.

Originally Posted by XR Martin

No gearing though.
100% torque with 1:1 drive is far less than something with a gearbox and axle.

But you did say 1:1 (I guess you were saying that as an exaggeration type statement) and figured it was a general statement about EV motors which is why I used the Tesla stats I knew and that BYD use reduction gears. All good.

It's weird, I know what you're saying about torque multiplication with gears but electric motors seem to be doing things that you wouldn't expect (whether driven by a generator or batteries or both).

As with the F150 video, it's quite remarkable how capable they are without the need for a low range.

Heck, haulage trains have been using diesel electric for the torque advantages for years now.

And my point on them was to the comment about driving a PHEV (series like the Ranger) in pure EV mode (by someone else) would be average vs the Generator type setup with electric motors for propulsion.

[TasRanger]

Originally Posted by kypez

Have a watch if you like to change your opinion. The lads take the F150 Lightning off-road

https://youtu.be/dIF5wDDMx7Q?si=JPb6CSz5FYZvCRah

I had a quick look but I didn't see any driving that would need low range torque.

Robert Pepper in his ytubes talks about it in his videos on the BYD ute. The same problem was observed by carexpert in their offroad review of the BYD.

Interestingly, Rivian developed a solution for their vehicles: https://jalopnik.com/rivian-patents-...roa-1850090533

[kypez]

Originally Posted by TasRanger

I had a quick look but I didn't see any driving that would need low range torque.



Robert Pepper in his ytubes talks about it in his videos on the BYD ute. The same problem was observed by carexpert in their offroad review of the BYD.



Interestingly, Rivian developed a solution for their vehicles: https://jalopnik.com/rivian-patents-...roa-1850090533

They try getting it stuck in soft sand. My Everest would've needed low range to get out of soft sand as I learnt in K'gari/Fraser. The diesel just wasn't up to the task in high range.

The BYD must use a much taller ratio.

Rivian came up with the patent 2 years ago but still haven't had to use it because the cars are still getting off road easily and without the extra complexity.

Porsche Taycan uses a 2 speed transmission.

The car expert team did the same off road course with the F150 Lightning without issue till the top when the breach angle got the truck stuck (but made it up the incline without issues).

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by kypez

Just checked and from 1st April this year, PHEV isn't considered a low emissions vehicle and won't get the 0% FBT benefits. Oh well, Ford is late to the party again.

Commercial vehicles are already FBT exempt providing you meet the criteria of use.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

We're talking about BYD and you've got to bring up Tesla. You do this in every thread.

BYD is torque deficient in offroad situations, no one said anything about Tesla. Give it a damn rest.

Not trying to defend BYD or anything, however I saw another video after that Car Expert test and they showed a BYD going up that hill, stopping, and starting off OK.

It could well be one of two things
1: The calibration was wrong in the model Car Expert tested and BYD have release an OTA update that corrects this

2: The BYD is actually deficient and not suitable for that type of driving.

My feeling is the BYD will be good for a semi offroader. Not someone who is doing serious driving. But for a family that wants to camp and such, maybe a modest trailer. It will be a good choice.

Anyway, each to their own. Having more choice is a good thing and the introduction of the Shark will hopefully make the ICE cars cheaper though competition.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Biggest let down for the BYD is that logo on the front...

Would have looked way better with a small badge.

They have alot of people interested at that price point because you can't even get a XLT Bi Turbo 4x4 for that money.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Biggest let down for the BYD is that logo on the front...

Would have looked way better with a small badge.

They have alot of people interested at that price point because you can't even get a XLT Bi Turbo 4x4 for that money.

I dont mind the big BYD badge on the Shark grille.
And I m sure its deliberate to improve brand recognition.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by kevino

I dont mind the big BYD badge on the Shark grille.

And I m sure its deliberate to improve brand recognition.

Ford are to blame for this trend though at least Ford keep it on the Raptor models. (I love the Ford lettering on the Raptors)

[Sprintey]

I would have thought electric motors would be absolutely excellent for low speed work where low range is used. You can precisely meter the output to the wheels at full torque.

I like CNC machining, and I can run the stepper motors to move so slowly and precisely I'm carving sub 0.1mm bits off material - the electric motors are so precise.

The big haul packs are central diesel generator with big electric motors on each wheel I think.

Is the BYD in the example above just without enough torque?

My 4x4 training for work suggested old school NA diesel at manual reductions of >50:1 was sufficient for almost all offroad work with its compression braking and torque multiplication, the automatic petrols at about 35:1 reduction would tend to run away on the steeper stuff and needed braking, which we generally tried not to rely on.

Kypez, that 7.56 reduction gear, that's a set ratio so one spin wheel requires 7.56 spins of electric motor?

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I would have thought electric motors would be absolutely excellent for low speed work where low range is used. You can precisely meter the output to the wheels at full torque.

I don't think people realise how much torque multiplication is going on in something with low range.
I don't have the calcs but we're talking many thousands of NM.

Edit my calcs show 23,000nm in first gear low range at peak torque in the 3L V6 TD.
Not counting drivetrain loss.

600nm x 4.171 1st gear, x 2.48 low range, x 3.73 diff.

[XR Martin]

Oh I'm not sure why trains are brought up either, they only have to go up grades of a few percent at most.
In serious 4x4 offroading the grade might go up 50 percent...