Autonomous Emergency Braking

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by smoo

Nope,have had them shit the bed multiple times on a couple of examples.

Over taking and not indicating, not pulling out into the oncoming or passing lane early enough or when the speed differential between my vehicle and the one I’m passing is too great.

When someone infront of you is turning off and using a slip lane or the lane is wide enough for half their car and your car, you go or attempt to go around them staying within your lane, or you maintain current speed and road position knowing they’re going to turn in a couple of seconds, and it goes mental.

Far from ideal, especially the over taking manoeuvre where your attention is concentrated elsewhere and next thing the car is setting off all sorts of warning and starts to brake.

Yep that last situation you describe is the most concerning, surely putting on the indicator disables the system? Otherwise that is "death by oncoming road train".

[prydey]

Originally Posted by simon varley

If people chose to ignore it in the pursuit of a cheap car then they shouldn't complain later.

Are there any reviews of high end brands having poorly calibrated systems?

This would support the view that its mainly the cheap and cheerful manufacturers that are rushing products to market that are the main offenders.

I believe the motive behind the electronics is the right move and over time most manufacturers will improve them. We're just in a phase where it's an emerging technology and legislation around these technologies is creating a scenario where some systems aren't quite fine tuned as well as they should be.

These days due to no longer doing shift work, I'm in peak hour traffic every day and what I find most surprising about the road toll is that it isn't 10x higher. Impatience on the road is at an all time high. Tailgating is the norm. Lack of courtesy and general selfishness is everywhere. It's no wonder that these newer technologies struggle with the way most people drive.

White lines for the most part seem to be just a rough guide as to where to drive.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by prydey

Are there any reviews of high end brands having poorly calibrated systems?

the ANCAP site doesn't seem to be really suited to search like that, but just for an example:

BMW: the worst rating is 4 star for a 2022 i4 and it only gets 62% for Safety Assist. AEB rates Good for car-to-car but only Adequate for car-to-cyclist and car-to-pedestrian. It rates Weak on Emergency Lane Keep

That's the worst premium car I can find. All others are 5 star

Lexus LBX rates 79%
Volvo EX30 80%
Everest 86%

whereas

Chery Tiggo Pro is a 5 star car with 86% on Safety Assist.
GWM Tank is a 5 star car with 84%
Jac T9 has 89%

So, I'm not sure there really is any correlation.....

[OneMadMan]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

For a long time I have just been about trying to keep my car going until I get a new car. But truth be told these days I'm thinking about trying to find a well kept old car to replace my current old car without all this crap

Nodding...

That's exactly what I did. My TURD has a ciggie lighter and ashtray.
It has a very well setup traction control system, that can be disabled if you want to do a 'pedal / foot brake dance', but it's that well calibrated, it's better left on.
And that's it (ABS of course) as far as driver aids go. And I love it. Lets me do what I like to do. Drive.

As I have said in another thread, I put mine in the Toyota shop for some work, had a current Camry 4cyl ev thing for a loaner, and man, what a POS.
The EBS nearly put my face on the dash within the 1st 5 minutes of driving it.

Was driving on a wide industrial type estate 50kmp/h straight road.
Semi trailer parked on my left up ahead.

I can pass parked semi without leaving my 'lane / side of the road etc'.
4WD coming towards me in it's own lane keeping well left.

POS camry decides I'm gunna bend it, and puts my face on the dash...

HOW da fsck is this safe? It was dry, hot and sunny. Imagine that same scenario if it was wet, and old mate in the Valiant wagon was behind me... Crunch.

Not only did that take the cake, I had my window open while the a/c was getting up to temp (or down even) and I'm buzzing along minding my own bees wax... I gets a warning chime accompanied by a message on the dash that said: Your window is open, would you like me to close it?
Wow, I didn't realise it was open... SERIOUSLY??

Was on a narrow dirt road, wanted to do a handbrake turn. Cause if I didn't it would have meant a 3 point turn..
So slows to 30kays an hour, applies handbrake, turns steering wheel to the right expecting an old fashioned youi.. and man, I nearly ended up in a ditch, because it ABSed, beeped, whinged, and stalled the engine.. Yeah, thanks for that. NOT.

To many driver aids.
Did you know, in that same camry, when on cruise with radar assist, you don't have to drive it. It will slow down when approaching a car in front. It will speed up when it does, to the cruise speed you had set, it will EVEN come to a complete stop without any input from the driver. (IE, coming up to a red light from 110 kays an hour when the car in front slows to a stop).

Sorry, not a fan, never will be. It has taken my driving skills away from me by second guessing my intentions.

Don't get me started on the lane keeping assist thing GRRRR

/rant off.


Cheers,

One 'happy old car owner' Mad Man

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep that last situation you describe is the most concerning, surely putting on the indicator disables the system? Otherwise that is "death by oncoming road train".

At a guess it doesn’t as even if the indicators are on and closing in on a truck with say an extra 30kmh and about to pass, the AEB would prob over ride.
Next time I have a rental car I’ll take more notice and see.

Another issue I’ve had, and I can’t remember what rental car I was in (maybe an I30), dual carriage way on cruise control passing a car who is in the LH lane.
The car I was driving randomly started to slow down to a slower speed of the car I was passing. Had this a couple of times.
Not a safety issue as the deceleration wasn’t extreme, more anyone behind me will be thinking WTF is this retard slowing down for.

[kevino]

Just to cheer you up
Trucks - 3 new adr s next year

35/07 esc- electronic stability control
97/00 Aeb- advanced emergency braking
80/04- emissions etc bring us to euro 6


Aeb on trucks!!!


Think it through.
Maybe just use the train.

[OneMadMan]

Originally Posted by kevino

Just to cheer you upTrucks - 3 new adr s next year35/07 esc- electronic stability control97/00 Aeb- advanced emergency braking80/04- emissions etc bring us to euro 6Aeb on trucks!!!

Hey, there's nothing new about this:
this video is 12 years old... and I think it's a great idea, considering the number of 'curries' driving HC / MC's while sending da Mrs a text regarding what tonight's curry is going to be:




Cheers,

One Mad Man

[kevino]

Next thing is
How do these rigs perform Aeb with two trailers or a road train

Volvo may have good systems

I wonder how the lesser truck brands including the Ccp truck brands will go

[outbackman59]

Been a semi driver since age 21 now 66,both local and interstate ,
refrigeration,these crash alert systems are ,in truck drivers terms,,shall we say not so good. Driving 2024 merc benz 2653 pulling 26 plt frig vans every one of the driversin these vehivles have complained of false alerts even to the point of braking to a complete stand still with nothing in front of you.me personally have had this happen to me ,had to return load to depot to be hand unpacked and restacked on plts due to load moving due yo the sudden stoppage
One other driver was entering melb tunnel and crash alert stopped him on a dime needless to say another truck slammed up his rear,windscreen camera showed no one in front,because of slope of road going inyo tunnel it picked up the road surface infront and slammed on brakes

They call this crap a safety package LOT TO BE DEDIRED ABOUT THIS STUFF

[kevino]

Good feedback. A MB 2653 is high tech and prob has access to the best German suppliers and still …..,
Appears the article I read in a Jan 25 magazine is wrong
Start date for Aeb on all new trucks over 3.6 t is Feb 1 2025

The article was written last year failed to recognise the mag comes out Jan 25

[outbackman59]

I am old school though,have had 3 truck of my own ,being mb 1418,acco 3070,both single drive then kw bogie,dont like the european stuff but out of md and volvo i prefer the volvo globetrotter
Cannot beat a 600hp cummins in a kw cabover, but the boss love his euros and its his money . Twomuch technology creeping into things now adays making car and truck drivers lazy
Suppose at my age i may be able to get out and retire before i hit 130

[outbackman59]

Ps stopped being owner driver 20 yrs ago now just a driver

[outbackman59]

To clear to the lay person,trucks are not like they were years ago now a days the hp is any thing from 400 to 750 hp plus,half a million dollars just the truck no trailers
But what ever your late model top of the range car has ,these late model trucks have in them as standard accessories

[Sprintey]

AEB killed the ASX car

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...running-models


Edit: I did not know this

"ADR 98/00 is based on United Nations Regulation No. 152, which requires autonomous emergency braking (AEB) systems to be able to detect another vehicle and apply the brakes if necessary at speeds of between 10 and 60km/h, and between 20 and 60km/h for pedestrians and cyclists."

So is this technology being stipulated by the UN for governments to enforce?

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

…So is this technology being stipulated by the UN for governments to enforce?

The same UN which is always threatening to smack Israel’s botty?

Perhaps we can channel our inner Haredi and ignore the UN’s overtures.

[simon varley]

just thinking some more about this. What's the difference, if the car suddenly activates the brakes for no reason, compare to you performing an emergency stop because a kid runs out? if someone runs into the back of you it's the same either way, and legally they are at fault for not leaving enough room.

discuss.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

"ADR 98/00 is based on United Nations Regulation No. 152

This Regulation is an "if-fitted" regulation.

if-fitted, this is how it must perform, but there is no stipulation that it must be fitted

[OneMadMan]

Originally Posted by simon varley

just thinking some more about this. What's the difference, if the car suddenly activates the brakes for no reason, compare to you performing an emergency stop because a kid runs out? if someone runs into the back of you it's the same either way, and legally they are at fault for not leaving enough room.discuss.

I don't think there's anything worth adding here man. If you run into the back of some one it's your fault. The end...

Almost.

I bet there are examples of cars without throttle cables, - FBWire - that have had 'moments' where the thing 'sticks' at WOT.

And the less car savvy people out there just ride the brakes until they fade to the point where they don't work, and crunch... instead of hitting the key, turning it off, then back on again (yes while moving) to reset the ECU. Or, selecting neutral and let it rev...

Pretty hard to prove unless the thing is still bouncing off the rev limiter after the accident, as there (as far as I know) is no code logged for such an event.

My Thoughts,

One Mad Man

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

AEB killed the ASX car

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...running-models


Edit: I did not know this

"ADR 98/00 is based on United Nations Regulation No. 152, which requires autonomous emergency braking (AEB) systems to be able to detect another vehicle and apply the brakes if necessary at speeds of between 10 and 60km/h, and between 20 and 60km/h for pedestrians and cyclists."

So is this technology being stipulated by the UN for governments to enforce?

UN tried to enforce a ban of bullbars in Australia at one stage.

[OneMadMan]

Originally Posted by OneMadMan

Hey, there's nothing new about this:this video is 12 years old... and I think it's a great idea, considering the number of 'curries' driving HC / MC's while sending da Mrs a text regarding what tonight's curry is going to be:Cheers, One Mad Man

Need I say more? Was following old curry mate, nothing in the left lane to warrant him being in my lane. 70Km per hour speed zone...





Cheers,

One Mad Man

[smoo]

Originally Posted by simon varley

just thinking some more about this. What's the difference, if the car suddenly activates the brakes for no reason, compare to you performing an emergency stop because a kid runs out? if someone runs into the back of you it's the same either way, and legally they are at fault for not leaving enough room.

discuss.

Well, it’s all about reducing the potential for an incident to occur regardless of who is at fault don’t you think.

Sounds like similar analogy to some cyclists who ride on less than ideal roads. ‘Were legal road users too’. Yeah, well that means bugger all when you’re lying in a coffin because some inattentive car driver rounds a corner and cleans you up.

Like feeling content with a dodgy AEB because if anything happens who ever runs into you is at fault….
What if some tailgating tard in a jacked up Thai special does just that at 100kmh and sends you across the road into oncoming traffic, etc.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by simon varley

just thinking some more about this. What's the difference, if the car suddenly activates the brakes for no reason, compare to you performing an emergency stop because a kid runs out? if someone runs into the back of you it's the same either way, and legally they are at fault for not leaving enough room.

discuss.

Yes about final result however in my own accident, I wouldn't have braked as aggressively as the AEB, or as early and maybe not even to a complete stop as the distance between me and the Tesla was large enough to enable a slowdown first with a potential swerve around the stationary Tesla also possible as there was plenty of room either side. And I knew I had others behind me.

My vans AEB was set to early intervention I discovered.

You need every vehicle to have AEB and similarly calibrated to achieve the result the legislators would like.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by simon varley

just thinking some more about this. What's the difference, if the car suddenly activates the brakes for no reason, compare to you performing an emergency stop because a kid runs out? if someone runs into the back of you it's the same either way, and legally they are at fault for not leaving enough room.

discuss.

The difference is that in the second example, a kid ran out onto the road.

[whynot]

January 17, 2025
NHTSA ACTION NUMBER: EA25002
OPEN INVESTIGATION
Inadvertent Automatic Emergency Braking

NHTSA Action Number: EA25002

Components FORWARD COLLISION AVOIDANCE

Opened From: January 17, 2025–Present

Summary

On March 7, 2024, the Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) opened a Preliminary Evaluation (PE24008) to assess reports of inadvertent activation of the Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) system in model year 2019-2022 Honda Insight and 2019-2022 Honda Passport vehicles. The complainants allege activation of the AEB system with no apparent obstruction in the vehicle's path, resulting in rapid vehicle deceleration.

Honda indicated that it is aware of a total of 412 reports that may relate to the alleged defect. Honda provided analysis of the alleged defect and stated that some customers possibly had an inadequate understanding of the AEB system and its limitations. However, many consumer complaints received by ODI allege that Honda dealerships were unable to reproduce the condition or state that Honda dealerships informed the consumer that this is considered normal AEB operation.

To date, ODI has received a total of 106 consumer complaints of inadvertent activation of AEB in the subject vehicles. In total, ODI reviewed 475 reports involving vehicles with unique VINs that may relate to the alleged defect. Of the reports reviewed by ODI, three (3) allege a crash caused by the inadvertent activation of AEB and two (2) allege injury.

This Engineering Analysis is being opened to further assess the scope, frequency, and potential safety related consequences of the inadvertent AEB activations. Further, the scope of the investigation is being expanded to include assessment of model year 2023 Honda Passport vehicles. To review the ODI reports cited in the Opening Resume ODI Report Identification Number document, go to NHTSA.gov.

[whynot]

January 17, 2025 NHTSA ACTION NUMBER: EA25001OPEN INVESTIGATION
Collisions Involving Ford BlueCruise
NHTSA Action Number: EA25001

Components ELECTRICAL SYSTEM

Opened From: January 17, 2025–Present

Summary

On April 25, 2024, NHTSA’s Office of Defects Investigation (ODI) opened a Preliminary Evaluation (PE24012) to assess BlueCruise, a partial driving automation system available on certain vehicles manufactured by Ford Motor Company (Ford). NHTSA opened the investigation after the agency received notice of two fatal collisions involving BlueCruise-equipped Ford Mustang Mach-E vehicles. Based on the incidents, NHTSA scoped the investigation to 2021-2024 Mustang Mach-E vehicles equipped with BlueCruise. In June 2024, ODI sent an Information Request (IR) letter to Ford requiring that it provide certain information pertaining to crashes, non-crash reports, and technical specifications that relate to BlueCruise, as well as other Ford partial driving automation systems that offer lane and speed maintenance.

In its response to ODI’s IR, Ford stated that there are 2,539,962 Ford and Lincoln vehicles (including subject and peer vehicles) equipped with a partial driving automation system within the scope of the request. The majority of these vehicles are equipped with a system that Ford calls Lane Centering Assist (LCA), which is a hands-on partial driving automation system that combines longitudinal control authority governed by Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and lateral control authority governed by a steerable path. LCA is offered on a wide range of Ford and Lincoln models beginning in model year 2019. Vehicles that are equipped with BlueCruise, the focus of this investigation, have LCA capability and additionally offer hands-free partial driving automation when certain conditions are met. Hands-free BlueCruise operation is only offered on certain roadways and system availability is geofenced using vehicle GPS. BlueCruise-equipped vehicles employ a camera-based driver monitoring system to determine driver attentiveness to the roadway. BlueCruise was introduced in model year 2021 and is currently available in a select range of Ford and Lincoln vehicles.

For BlueCruise- and LCA-equipped vehicles, both ACC and Pre-Collision Assist (PCA) features use a combination of camera and radar sensing technologies to detect and classify objects. ACC is specifically designed to detect vehicles (including cars, trucks, and motorcycles) and bicycles in front of the subject vehicle which are either stationary or moving in the same direction as the subject vehicle. Through this investigation, limitations in the detection of stationary vehicles in certain conditions have been identified. Specifically, due to the potential for false detection of stationary objects at long distances, Ford designed ACC to inhibit any response to reported stationary objects when the subject vehicle’s approach speed is at or above 62 mph. Additionally, system performance may be limited when there is poor visibility due to insufficient illumination.

In addition to reviewing Ford’s response to ODI’s IR, the agency conducted a review of crash and non-crash reports identified collectively through Ford’s IR response, incident reporting through Standing General Order 2021-01 (SGO), and NHTSA vehicle owner questionnaires. In total, 32 crashes and 2,004 non-crash reports on subject and peer Ford vehicles were identified across manufacturer and ODI data sources. A detailed analysis of each crash was conducted including the review of any available police reports, photographs, data recovered from in-vehicle event data recorders, connected vehicle data, and/or other information.

In both fatal collisions referenced in the PE24012 opening resume, the subject Ford Mustang Mach-E vehicle was traveling over 70 mph on a controlled-access highway during nighttime lighting conditions with hands-free BlueCruise engaged when it collided with a stationary vehicle. Analysis of data imaged from the vehicles’ event data recorders demonstrates that in each incident, the driver did not apply the brakes or take evasive steering action, and no deceleration was initiated by either the BlueCruise system or PCA prior to impact. Through the agency’s crash analysis, four additional frontal collisions were identified where the subject Ford impacted a stopped or slow-moving lead vehicle or another stationary object located in the travel lane. Two of these four incidents involved BlueCruise-equipped Ford Mustang Mach-E vehicles (included in the failure report summary along with the fatal collisions discussed above), while the other two involved other Ford models equipped with the LCA system. Additionally, a trend was identified through analysis of the non-crash reports relating to allegations that ACC (the longitudinal component of both BlueCruise and LCA) failed to detect and/or respond to a stopped or slow-moving lead vehicle. In these reports, consumers often describe that the absence of deceleration initiated by ACC was unexpected and required harsh manual braking or intervention from the PCA to avoid a frontal collision with the lead vehicle.

Based on NHTSA’s analysis, system limitations relating to the detection of stationary vehicles while traveling at highway speeds and in nighttime lighting conditions appear to be factors in collisions under investigation and several apparently similar near-miss, non-crash reports. This Engineering Analysis (EA) is being opened to further investigate these system limitations and to evaluate drivers’ ability to respond to scenarios that exceed system limitations. During the EA, the agency expects to, among other things, perform vehicle evaluations, review additional technical information, and perform additional analysis of related crashes and non-crash reports. The crashes included in the failure report summary can be found at NHTSA.gov under the following SGO report identification numbers: 502-7268, 502-7426, 502-6852, 502-8738.