National identification card. - Page 2

Fairlane · 19-07-2005, 09:08 PM

Hate the idea with a vengace. Howard probably isnt serious about it, just using it as a distraction.

Call me melodramatic, but I think an ID card is one of the steps towards a dictatorship (esp with the idea of putting fingerprints on them.

MO · 19-07-2005, 09:17 PM

Oh, he is serious but he knows that this is a political hot potatoe of the first order.
Its a pity we don't have the system of one of the nordic countries cant remember which one but they can't introduce anything new without a referendum.

eb2fairmont · 20-07-2005, 12:05 PM

How will an ID card prevent a bombing? All it will do is making the flotsam and jetsam after the event easier to identify.

It's all about controlling the general populace and instilling fear into the community. If people are scared they will do whatever the hell you want them to.

An id card will not change things, foreign policy does.

David

conordec · 20-07-2005, 12:10 PM

hows this.
yesterday in hong kong a lone policeman was stabbed when asking an individual for an id card, he's fighting for life right now.
obviously the guy was dodgy, eventually being caught.
it has its pros and cons... but definitely a hot pototo for little johnny.
and as was mentioned before.... the govt knows by many different means what you're all up to... so why not just make it a one card system?
Mick.

Sourbastard · 20-07-2005, 12:27 PM

An ID card will never hinder nor control terrorist activity. Security of any type is a myth. With enough funding, planning, preparation and secrecy, anything can be struck at with success.

An ID card is a placebo to make the sheep feel safe while the government takes just a bit more of our privacy away under the guise of security. And its always "Just a little bit more"

Baaaaa.

MYV8 · 20-07-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conordec

Sorry but I'm all for it.
Tree huggers aren't but they just don't get it.
The government knows everything about you anyway, why not just make it a bit safer?
We have one here in HK, faked???? sorry.. not if you do it like they have here.
Just my opinion, but if you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you be against it?

Mick.

Totally agree. Nothing to hide what's the problem.

xceler8shun · 20-07-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MYV8

Totally agree. Nothing to hide what's the problem.

same, they have all our details in one database or another.

not like we are giving up extra information or anything.

20-07-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MYV8

Totally agree. Nothing to hide what's the problem.

Let me paint this scenario, then.

1. News headlines: "The Federal Government today revealed that backup tapes for its national ID database disappeared on the way to the secure off-site storage facility they were destined for."

2. Three months later. Knock on MYV8's door, "Mr MYV8? About this morgage you took out on your house. You don't seem to have made any payments so we're here to sell your house to recoup the $500,000 we loaned you."

It's not having the data that's the problem, it's keeping it all in the one place. Your Medicare number is used as an index to many databases held in different places, such as your doctor's surgery or pharmacist. If anyone steals any one of those databases they can only get a small picture of your life. They have to have access to a great many databases to form a full picture of your life.

However, the idea behind the national ID card is not to provide a means of identification, because we already have enough of those, but to create a comprehensive database of our lives to simplify the task of identifying "suspects". Remember that it's not the ID that's the problem it's all the stuff behind it.

Now, if you have a database containing all of our details, you have the problem of making it available to those who "need to know" and keeping out those who wish to use it for nefarious gains. We've already had cases of insiders obtaining information from Police databases for criminal gain. Think what would happen if someone had a complete history of your life. Think about those "security" questions we get asked by banks, for example, and then imagine that someone has access to all of that information...

xceler8shun · 20-07-2005, 02:59 PM

possible, but that could happen to other databases as well

still have nothing to hide

conordec · 20-07-2005, 03:07 PM

treehugging paranoia tm.

20-07-2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xceler8shun

possible, but that could happen to other databases as well

still have nothing to hide

That's exactly why the people of the United States of America no longer live in the "land of the free".

The other point that I missed was that of accuracy of the data. "Mr xceler8shun? I see that you travelled to Pakistan 20 times in the last 5 years. Please accept our invitation to stay in one of our nice gaols until you can prove that you're not a terroist."
"No, I've never been to Pakistan."
"That's not what our database shows, and you know that computers never lie. Come along then, enjoy our kind hospitatility. Oh, you're not allowed to contact anyone, even a lawyer."

It's already happening in the USA...

20-07-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conordec

treehugging paranoia tm.

Hey, I work in the computer security field, paranoia works in this field because it's almost always proven correct. As for the "treehugging" bit, what's this got to do with greenies anyway? Greenies are too busy preserving forests so they can grow their drug crops without being spotted from the air to bother with anything as important as this.

Heeno · 20-07-2005, 03:29 PM

there is a way to stop terrorism in other countries....not going to like it but it has to be said, send the muslims back to their own countries, i know not all of them are terrorist's but how are we to know? we don't know and thats the hard thing about fighting terrorism, im not being raciest what so ever but its the only way to minimise the threat.

does anyone have any other suggestions?

20-07-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heeno

there is a way to stop terrorism in other countries....not going to like it but it has to be said, send the muslims back to their own countries, i know not all of them are terrorist's but how are we to know? we don't know and thats the hard thing about fighting terrorism, im not being raciest what so ever but its the only way to minimise the threat.

does anyone have any other suggestions?

You're not allowed to say that in Victoria. Can anyone in Victoria spell "freedom of speech" or do you all have "nothing to hide?"

Heeno · 20-07-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirdEL

You're not allowed to say that in Victoria. Can anyone in Victoria spell "freedom of speech" or do you all have "nothing to hide?"

what the hell are u on about??

Walkinshaw · 20-07-2005, 03:46 PM

Am i the only one who is invisaging an East German Officer screaming up in some Russian Vulga car and yelling "Paperzzzzz NOW!, Where are your paperzzzzzz"

I havent made my mind up on this issue.

/note to self, stockpile nitrogen phosphate now.

20-07-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heeno

what the h*** are u on about??

The Victorian government has passed a law making it illegal to say what you said, in Victoria. Someone has already been charged under that law because a Muslim listening to him objected to what he had to say about Islam, even though what he said was true.

20-07-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

/note to self, stockpile nitrogen phosphate now.

Too late. They're already watching who buys that now...

Heeno · 20-07-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirdEL

The Victorian government has passed a law making it illegal to say what you said, in Victoria. Someone has already been charged under that law because a Muslim listening to him objected to what he had to say about Islam, even though what he said was true.

well im not in victoria and simply you can't be prosecuted for something that is correct! and if what you say is correst then why are the victorian government doing this?

Heeno · 20-07-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirdEL

Too late. They're already watching who buys that now...

you can make explosives from a light bulb!
what can i say i was going to be a pyrotechnition...still might be if i can get the licence but wouldn't know how to go about it, plus CAD is easier and won't get me blowen up

20-07-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heeno

well im not in victoria and simply you can't be prosecuted for something that is correct! and if what you say is correst then why are the victorian government doing this?

It's called "religious vilification." It can be true but if it is against the beliefs of that religion, or someone from that religion objects to it, then you can indeed be prosecuted. I can see the original purpose behind the legislation but I think that not all the implications were considered before the law was passed.

Please note that I did not say that I disagree with you. Neither am I going to use a public forum to say that I agree with you either. I might need to travel to Victoria again one day...

Heeno · 20-07-2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirdEL

Please note that I did not say that I disagree with you. Neither am I going to use a public forum to say that I agree with you either. I might need to travel to Victoria again one day...

yea thats all cool, but it's like the aboriginals saying white man took their land, and some yobbo doesn't like what he heard so he gets the aboriginal prosecuted....its pathetic but then again so is the JS

20-07-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heeno

yea thats all cool, but it's like the aboriginals saying white man took their land, and some yobbo doesn't like what he heard so he gets the aboriginal prosecuted....its pathetic but then again so is the JS

However, the original reason for my comment was to point out that our "rights" are already being slowly eroded and we, as Australians, are just saying things like "I've got nothing to hide..."

bindi · 20-07-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

Am i the only one who is invisaging an East German Officer screaming up in some Russian Vulga car and yelling "Paperzzzzz NOW!, Where are your paperzzzzzz"

Damn straight, it reminds me so much of what my husband's grandparents and family went through in WW2, being Jewish and all, and I am paranoid about our rights and freedoms.

It started when they took my gun ownership rights away...

4.9 EF Futura · 20-07-2005, 05:43 PM

Seeing a lot of "our rights are being slowly eroded" type commentary here...

How so? Examples? Legislation that is impacting on our freedoms? And i mean the name of the act, not "i heard this and i heard that". And remember - this is not the USA, there is no patriot act.

Can anyone put a convincing argument forward or are we going to sit here throwing catch phrases around and referring to the nazi party??

People complain about their records being kept on system such as medicare, centrelink and banking systems - but they'd crack the poops if these organisations couldnt provide the level of services these systems afford them. i.e. everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

The MaDDeSTMaN · 20-07-2005, 06:59 PM

Quote:

ID card a waste of money: expert
A national ID card program will not help to combat terrorism because knowing who someone is and divining their intentions are two very different things, an internationally renowned security technologist says.

http://newsletters.fairfax.com.au/cg...Bd0Jhb0GIeE0El

MO · 20-07-2005, 09:07 PM

PPL,what did I say....they already have the National card...its medicare all they are doing is speeding up the process of cross correllation of data. They don't really need a national id they've got it all already,its just cumbersome.
Do not be fooled they know every move we make if they want to look.

Sourbastard · 20-07-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Seeing a lot of "our rights are being slowly eroded" type commentary here...

How so? Examples? Legislation that is impacting on our freedoms? And i mean the name of the act, not "i heard this and i heard that". And remember - this is not the USA, there is no patriot act.

Can anyone put a convincing argument forward or are we going to sit here throwing catch phrases around and referring to the nazi party??

People complain about their records being kept on system such as medicare, centrelink and banking systems - but they'd crack the poops if these organisations couldnt provide the level of services these systems afford them. i.e. everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Go buy a house one day, then go and see the council. Once you do so you will realise how few rights you have. Building modification, fence types, what is considered within "Community Tolerances" in regards to design. Its never ending.

You want to know how our rights are eroded? Lets consider changes to laws where ASIO is involved.
How about this one: Surveillance Devices Bills 2004
Based around communications interception and surveillance, widening the list of offences in which you can have your phone tapped, be followed, and be under hi tech surveilence.

Thats just one law of hundreds, and i dont feel the need to sit here and convince you all night long.

The thing that everyone who "Has nothing to hide" and those that think we live in a free society miss, is that the law is a moving target, and there is often a huge gap between what is law, and what you THINK is law. Laws are revised, often without even making the attention of the commercial whores of the Media. OK, so you dont like a law? You can protest right? Well you need a permit. Well hell, maybe we will strike to protest new labour laws? Well unless you are ORDERED back to work by Industrial Relations Commission. I mean we live in a democracy, laws are repealed all the time right?..... right???

Ignorance is not a defence, and just because you are unaware does not mean you are innocent when you break the law. Even if the law is unjust. Even if you have never heard of the law. Be aware, be empowered and dont just stagger around with your head up your butt screaming about "How i donts gots nuffin to hide!"

bindi · 21-07-2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Seeing a lot of "our rights are being slowly eroded" type commentary here...

How so? Examples?

Here ya go, a serious example of no rights: http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.ph...&group=webcast

One interesting little snippet: "After questioning the police about my rights I was promptly told by the police that the police don't answer to anybody."

Some of the replies are hilarious, and the arguments are interesting.

XA-Coupe · 21-07-2005, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

Here ya go, a serious example of no rights: http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.ph...&group=webcast

One interesting little snippet: "After questioning the police about my rights I was promptly told by the police that the police don't answer to anybody."

Some of the replies are hilarious, and the arguments are interesting.

okay.. I can't help it. That article has a huge credibility problem. Since when in Australia do we have Police Lieutenants?? FFS, if they can't even get a simple thing like that right, what does that say about anything else in the article??

On topic, anyone that thinks Big Brother isn't here already is kidding themselves. An ID card will help in identifying illegal immigrants and other stuff but it won't stop zealots from vapourising themselves in the war zones that are supermarkets and train stations and such.

edit; After further researching the 'article' it is mostly just moronic rambling by people that are obviously educated beyond their intelligence. Got to laugh at them asking why they should be getting into trouble for having drugs on them ... sheesh

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