FPV's response to VE

[Sourbastard]

GM will do this. Ford will do that. Hyundai will dance and mitsubishi will fart and roll over.
Bigger smaller smarter dumber blah. Car companies will do primarily what is economically viable, attractive to their demographic, marketable, and politically acceptable.

If and I do mean a big IF, Ford decide to supercharge a Boss, it wont be because its smarter, it will be because its the easiest and cheapest method of getting the Boss on the same level as the 7lt without having to design a higher capacity engine, and having to get it then past euro compliance, a cost of millions.

I mean hell for all we know, Force8 could end up being a turbocharged 2 litre 8 cylinder diesel engine powering a hatchback to counter the Astra Diesel.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Well there is one reason why they will. At the end of the AU era some promenade Ford people made some rather boastful comments about sand and faces. They did that when FPV launched the return of the GT 30 kws above the entry level Club sport while the XR8 packed the equivalent number as the clubbie. Pretty big slap in the face that had been festering back to the launch of the LS1 where Ford admittedly didn't believe Holden would launch that sort of power assault.

Crystal ball time suggest SS will have or be very close to entry FPV level.
Clubsport will have depending on which measurement you prescribe to 30 - 40 kws or the same as when LS1 was launched over then T Series that was soon to be launched

And GTS looks set to again raise 50kws above basic HSVs just as 300 played 250. See a pattern? We have seen this before and if they follow closely what has gone before the 370 limit will remain for the life of this platform.

I don't really have much of idea what they are doing with engine levels except from what I have read on LS1 and a few of those guys seem to know a bit. Given that it is history repeating the 200 the 270 and the 320 look very likely numbers to me.


FPV reacting. One would have thought that if FPV were going to react then they would have made a move when BF was launched and not a series increment. They made a point that basically not going backwards for Euro 3 was in fact a significant step forward. FPV have to pay dearly for the BOSS they simply can't reach higher on the part stand. Unless development costs can be spread over a model cycle it unlikely they we see a return unless BOSS configuration continues into the next model, although Tickford did do similar with the last of the Windsor’s.

Then you have the fact that although FPV lead the segment you may as well call it even. To be behind in terms of power and performance doesn’t seem to have hurt sales. It becomes a question of how far behind do they have to be to lose the market they have and then react or if the sand +face= behind equation still holds any sway at all.

Then there is the fact that the LS2 a huge improvement over LS1 has been discounted basically since its introduction to sell the numbers they have. Why? And with fuel prices increasing Ford have some interesting decisions heading into the last quarter of this year. As much as people would like to believe Ford have changed they haven't. They are still followers and still sit off the play. They will on occasions hunt but they won’t kill. They had a huge chance to detract from VE last year and backed off.

The Force 6 and 8 registration has been extended from the early form to include a raft of other classes. Each time I hear it I can’t help think of the Craig Lowndes fan club which I believe includes the word “force”. Looking at the timing of registration to fruition, it would appear that what ever it is, is set for this year- judging by what Ford did with Typhoon, Tornado and F6. And yes there is no F8 registered.

As for the real worry? Well it will be if it sells. It has to do that first.

I sat and scratched my head when the Y-Series was released with 260kw. And FPV came along with 290kw and XR8 260kw. Both Holden's LS1 and HSV's both might have been down in power but they still matched it out with both of the Boss engines but **** into action with more power. Then i seen the light It was numbers nothing more it's all about numbers.
The GTS will sell there is always a select group that buy them when around, But this time they will step up and give them there moneys worth if they get the 7lt.

I was thinking Force 6 was just F6 shorten.

[AMT]

Carn't really see it happening the way fuel prices are going through the roof...??

[FalconXV]

Ford/ FPV really backed themselves into a wall when developing the BOSS engines, in terms of future development . I dont think factory Supercharging is an advantage because the majority of owners who tune their cars aftermarket resort to superchargers anyway, and a supercharged 7 litre GTS would be a right animal. FPV could well afford to leave the BOSS engine alone for the BF1, as the Z series HSV range uses a superior engine but outdated chasis. Because the rest of the car will catch up for VE, FPV can't afford indolence any longer. A sad fact is that the F6 engine is far more flexible and a better engine than the BOSS. They will need an innovative trick up their sleeves in order to sway buyers back to the V8 ,say some exhaust trick like the XR5 or Dual VCT. Either way, both engines will need some development. If Ford are smart, then light weight will be one of the key priorities when developing Orion, given fuel prices, and the heft of the current Falcon and VE.

[Bluehoon]

The boss will stay, until such time as a suitable crate motor is available from the US.

Yes there is the 4.6 mustang, however it doesn't suit the prodrive / FPV criteria.

Prodrive are looking for alternate motors too.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

I was thinking Force 6 was just F6 shorten.

Are you sure you don't mean the other way round?

I am sure the GTS will sell. Hell I might buy one if its good enough, it will kill me but hey oil is running out :

It’s the volume sellers I am intrigued about for both sides. FPV figures suggest their customers are looking past an engine number. When or if HSV match the chassis and suspension of the FPV product and have the best complete package they have ever presented to their consumers then we will see if FPV act.

Personally I would have thought it would have been sound marketing to be around the 300kw area now and perhaps move another 5 or 10 at years end.

It must be an extremely nervous time to be in the car industry with oil doing what it is. How people react to this and what priorities change will be up in the air. It could very well come down to who has the most efficient package now that HSV will be around the same weight as the FPV cars. The difference between the two companies is that HSV bench mark performance times while FPV don’t place a premium on that. There is no doubt the new E series will shift the goal posts in many areas, but FPV have been given a free kick heading into the 08 Falcon.

[kinksta]

Why dont ford just put our falcon range on a massive diet. i mean add a bit more power, but if they could lose a heap of weight somehow, our hero cars will inevitably get quicker. why have fords always een little fatties??? hehe

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Ford/ FPV really backed themselves into a wall when developing the BOSS engines, in terms of future development . I dont think factory Supercharging is an advantage because the majority of owners who tune their cars aftermarket resort to superchargers anyway, and a supercharged 7 litre GTS would be a right animal. FPV could well afford to leave the BOSS engine alone for the BF1, as the Z series HSV range uses a superior engine but outdated chasis. Because the rest of the car will catch up for VE, FPV can't afford indolence any longer. A sad fact is that the F6 engine is far more flexible and a better engine than the BOSS. They will need an innovative trick up their sleeves in order to sway buyers back to the V8 ,say some exhaust trick like the XR5 or Dual VCT. Either way, both engines will need some development. If Ford are smart, then light weight will be one of the key priorities when developing Orion, given fuel prices, and the heft of the current Falcon and VE.

What the hell are you on about? How many Supercharged FPVs do you think are out there? You could probably count them on both hands. Not many people can afford a $70k car, throw away their warranty, and then spend $10k+ on mods.
You'll also find it hard to supercharge the LS7 7.0L, its runs 11:1 and would require alot of work to put one on. Its more responsive to N/A mods, like a bigger cam, tune and exhaust.
Fact is a majority of new cars remain standard atleast during the warranty period. A supercharger from the factory is even more of an advantage to who ever wants to modify their car. Look at the XR6 Turbo for example
With a tune, exhaust and smaller pully, the 5.4L Supecharged Mustang engine will easily make over 500rwhp.

[BPXR6T]

All this talk about putting the ford on a diet and leaving whats under the bonnet alone. Isn't this kind of a similar strategy to what ford employed with the AU. i.e. lets make it handle better and leave a crappy 302 under the bonnet. They got rolled in the sales stakes.

Numbers count and Ford/FPV will have to counter Holden/HSV. If that means the first Australian factory blown 8 then I'll buy one. Who cares about petrol, its only a toy. I have a second car for shopping and round town duties as I wouldn't be parking what would be a near $100,000 car anywhere out of range of my shotgun anyhow.

[kinksta]

yea but if ya add a blower then thats gunna add more weight right? how heavy do ya want the car to get? add the extra power, but somehow lose same weight, then you'd have a weapon. holden will always have power and weight stats over us. but they just dont have the look!! hehe

[irsa76]

How come I get the feeling Force 6 and Force 8 sound more like a marketing phrase. The more I think about it the more it makes sense, at least with the F6 cars. FPV's storm front ads back this feeling up.

[Poetic Justice]

Anyone read Herald Sun's cars guide 14th July?

Had a bit of a write up of the new FPV boss and the fact that he wont be making any changes to the line up until he is completely comfortable and understands what is happening in the Australian performance market basically..

So this would mean no direct reply to the VE for a while yet

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by blackout

Anyone read Herald Sun's cars guide 14th July?

Had a bit of a write up of the new FPV boss and the fact that he wont be making any changes to the line up until he is completely comfortable and understands what is happening in the Australian performance market basically..

So this would mean no direct reply to the VE for a while yet

I think what that means is that he wont be changing any plans already put in place.:

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kinksta

yea but if ya add a blower then thats gunna add more weight right? how heavy do ya want the car to get? add the extra power, but somehow lose same weight, then you'd have a weapon. holden will always have power and weight stats over us. but they just dont have the look!! hehe

A blower won't really add a lot of weight. 20kgs maybe. Well worth it for the power and torque gains. The blowers Ford US use are great for low end torque to get the heavy weight moving. The near 3 tonne F150 Lightning could cut 13 second quarters.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Are you sure you don't mean the other way round?

I am sure the GTS will sell. Hell I might buy one if its good enough, it will kill me but hey oil is running out :

It’s the volume sellers I am intrigued about for both sides. FPV figures suggest their customers are looking past an engine number. When or if HSV match the chassis and suspension of the FPV product and have the best complete package they have ever presented to their consumers then we will see if FPV act.

Personally I would have thought it would have been sound marketing to be around the 300kw area now and perhaps move another 5 or 10 at years end.

It must be an extremely nervous time to be in the car industry with oil doing what it is. How people react to this and what priorities change will be up in the air. It could very well come down to who has the most efficient package now that HSV will be around the same weight as the FPV cars. The difference between the two companies is that HSV bench mark performance times while FPV don’t place a premium on that. There is no doubt the new E series will shift the goal posts in many areas, but FPV have been given a free kick heading into the 08 Falcon.

You know what i mean

It's funny i don't care like i did a month ago about fuel anymore. I was getting 260km to a Full tank and now get over 450km. I used to get ****ty when people moaned at getting 14l/100 and paying $1.40 for 65litres when i was paying the same for 70litres and getting 260km to that full tank.

But as i said the GTS really is nothing to worry about it's the Clubsport with 310-320kw thats going to be the one to worry about.

No doubt the 08 Falcon will be ready and firring in 08;).

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A blower won't really add a lot of weight. 20kgs maybe. Well worth it for the power and torque gains. The blowers Ford US use are great for low end torque to get the heavy weight moving. The near 3 tonne F150 Lightning could cut 13 second quarters.

yea but what if it was 2 tonnes? the lighter the quicker....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kinksta

yea but what if it was 2 tonnes? the lighter the quicker....

The extra power and torque of a blower can compensate for the heavier weight ten fold.

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The extra power and torque of a blower can compensate for the heavier weight ten fold.

but wouldnt even compare to the same truck with the same engine that is 1 tonne lighter right? i think the falcon, for its weight, has insufficient power.

[gtfpv]

well i actually like a heavy car . lightening the ford wouldnt make me like it more . to me weight means refinement in a production road car .lighter means more flimsy ( unsafer). unless your talking supeercar ferrari . where its all finely engineered wit aerodynamics to mach.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kinksta

but wouldnt even compare to the same truck with the same engine that is 1 tonne lighter right? i think the falcon, for its weight, has insufficient power.

How are you going to remove 1 tonne of weight from an F series?

If the Falcon had a 350kw blown 5.4 that weighed 20kgs heavier than it currently does now would that be suffiecient power for the weight. I say hell yes.

[suparoo]

ok guys, im new at this. i just bought myself an au series one xr6...nothin to spectacular but does the job, now i have a set of 19inch shadow chroe furies and i want to know how low i should lower it , how to lower it ie springs, wot brand ect and whilst i dont mine a firm ride i dont want it to make me an inch shorter every trtip i do

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i actually like a heavy car . lightening the ford wouldnt make me like it more . to me weight means refinement in a production road car .lighter means more flimsy ( unsafer). unless your talking supeercar ferrari . where its all finely engineered wit aerodynamics to mach.

yea, but what could it hurt? a standard falcon with a 2 or 3 people is nearly 2 tonne!!! i just think if the car got more power and lost a bit of weight, not so nose heavy, then they could have a winner round the track. the way holden are going unless they're engines chew way up too much petrol, ford are going to be left behind again.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

How are you going to remove 1 tonne of weight from an F series?

If the Falcon had a 350kw blown 5.4 that weighed 20kgs heavier than it currently does now would that be suffiecient power for the weight. I say hell yes.

i was just saying a 3 tonne truck has nothing over a 2 tonnes truck. it was very hypothetical, i thought that was pretty obvious. i just think that more power and a loss of weight would turn everything around. ford could have a much better power to weight ratio...

[superpursuit83]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

For someone with the name 'McobraR', you should know about the 500hp Supercharged 5.4 in the new GT500. Too slow at reading the market?

Been looking at one of these that Barry from BPT has in his shop. Very noise

[ED Classic]

There will be a 7 litre GTS with 377kw and 637nm. Wouldnt hold my breath on FPV matching it unfortionatley.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kinksta

i was just saying a 3 tonne truck has nothing over a 2 tonnes truck. it was very hypothetical, i thought that was pretty obvious. i just think that more power and a loss of weight would turn everything around. ford could have a much better power to weight ratio...

Removing weight is a lot easier said than done. With safety requirements and extra equipment its a hard and expensive thing to do. Going to light weight alloys results in higher manufacturing costs. If Ford can keep the Orion to the same weight as the BF or even slightly less they will have done really well.

[kinksta]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Removing weight is a lot easier said than done. With safety requirements and extra equipment its a hard and expensive thing to do. Going to light weight alloys results in higher manufacturing costs. If Ford can keep the Orion to the same weight as the BF or even slightly less they will have done really well.

yea i realise that, personally i couldn't care less, but for the performance range something drastic needs to be done. i mean if this GTS comes out with the 7litre V8!! what will ford do to combat that? we know they wont come out with anything bigger than 6litres if that. maybe a twin turbo boss? if theres any roon lol

[ED Classic]

So will Ford go alloy or work on getting the Boss to sit lower in the engine bay? I spend alot of time at a racetrack and you can see the difference between a F6/XR6 T taking a corner and a Boss Engined car! Id be very suprised if they keep with having the 8's so front end heavy.

Personally I think if FPV could get an Alloy Boss {very expensive I know} and tickle it to 300kw but cutting 50+kg out of the car and more importantly the front end it would be a much quicker and better handling car than the current BF and provide a good basis for a blown version.

[freaky]

why does FPV even need to match a GTS ?

If the GTS does eventuate it will be sold in very small numbers and cost on the >$100k.

[Boss 290]

ive sat back and read and you all make good points. i for one think it would be foolish to supercharge the boss because it would never live up to our expectations. if fpv were to leave the current boss how it is and just put a supercharger on it..any1 with a ba could just do the same thing and mostlikly cost less but then again you do have the added pressure of ruining your warrenty so a supercharge does have an upperhand but you would have to have a real good charger. nothing like holdens v6 turned out to be.as for the GTHO i wouldnt realease it because it was the best of its time and bringing a name out like that now against the competioon the way it is, is too risky and you wouldnt want the gts to have bragging rights. i believe they should bring out a gt 40th eddition with 350 kilowatts to be safe and mabey 50 kilos less...people will pay a lil extra but it would be worth it. and i do like the force 8 idea..mabey the same gt with a massive blower or twin turbo. even if they cant match hsv's power they could always test their cars to be mid 12 seconds when realesed...and why not think of a 2 door varient to combat the gto might weigh 1600kilos its possible if hsv can do it with its vz clubby..im not worried about the gts there wont be enough to sell we should really think about the clubby and mabey more luxury ranges if we can beat them in prices even with less power but match them in speed that would be the key..increase torque more

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by freaky

why does FPV even need to match a GTS ?

If the GTS does eventuate it will be sold in very small numbers and cost on the >$100k.

This is something i think allot of people need to come to terms with...
As a potential FPV customer next year i wont be spending over 70K on a vehicle.. so big KW cars over that price point don't even surface on my radar, id suggest most people in the market would feel 100+K for a high KW australian made performance vehicle is over the top..
As far as "bragging rights" about one having the most KW's? well there's allways something out there more exotic and more powerful so it doesnt bother me, im more interested in the overall package at my price point.