Extractors

[INJECTED_250]

i recon even 3 inch would help... but then how long is 2 long?

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by INJECTED_250

1.5 inch is more than likely going to be enuf for the average joe. A stock ecu wont go over 5 3/4 rpm any hows, and with the majority of us running cams around the 500 th lift mark, im prob going to have to agrea with sox which is a first.
On the dyno working with 250's which although are differnt in head desigine and cam profiles, we found there was more to be gained from longer runner length than the actual primary pipe size, we tried 3 diffrent sets, with the no name brand which had LONG primary producing more power and torque than the pacy and lukey pipes.

Just wondering, out of interest, mate, what extractors did you decide to use on your 4.0L??


Cheers,
Dave

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Seeing as how most sources I can find agree that long runners are better than short, does anyone think it is worth while cutting and welding to increase the length. I have thought about it myself, it would be real easy to do with the ones I have as well, but I cant see it making a real difference. I am sure I have seens some pics from others who have done it.

If so, how much longer? 6", 12", more?

The difference between the normal JMM and the race series is simply longer secondaries. A lot of people have upgraded from the normal ones to the race series and claim a decent gain. (The race series are also mandrel bent but this does NOTHING to help them).


As for the length, i'm not really familar with the advance headers, so it's hard to say. But anything is going to help, you would think...

[INJECTED_250]

Hows this...... i still havnt fitted any 2 it.... Im even going a biger cam 1521a, i want to see if it will work i know people say it wont and what sorta power the stock manifold realy dies in the ****. I wana keep the engine looking DEAD stock and extractors arnt stock. THats for now any hows

Pacy comps for me when i finaly bite the bullet and purchase some

[Sox]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Seeing as how most sources I can find agree that long runners are better than short, does anyone think it is worth while cutting and welding to increase the length. I have thought about it myself, it would be real easy to do with the ones I have as well, but I cant see it making a real difference. I am sure I have seens some pics from others who have done it.

If so, how much longer? 6", 12", more?

You only really want to extend the two secondary pipes (rooting around with the primaries will be a nightmare), but depending on there current length, 12" would be a good start.

Rick.

[stockstandard]

These are the advanced extractors. I would cut the last collector off and weld in two sections of pipe, and more the cat back accordingly. The question would be how much to cut and weld.

I was also told to cut the O2 sensor out and put it back in further down so it gets gas from all pipes. This can apparently help get a better tune.

[Thanatos]

Ahhh, they are a copy of the normal Pacies.

yer, i agree with Rick, i reckon at least 12inches would be good....

[INJECTED_250]

Why is the o2 sensor only reading from the front 3 pots?

[stockstandard]

I could just cut the pipes and run them both to the back :

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by INJECTED_250

Why is the o2 sensor only reading from the front 3 pots?

The o2 sensor fitting is on the front secondary runner. Same as JMM and most other headers I have seen.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

These are the advanced extractors. I would cut the last collector off and weld in two sections of pipe, and more the cat back accordingly. The question would be how much to cut and weld.

15" is the magic number, trust me.

I was also told to cut the O2 sensor out and put it back in further down so it gets gas from all pipes. This can apparently help get a better tune.

It's not needed.

Rick.

[Thanatos]

It's quite common for the oxy sensor to be located there.

It means that wires don't have to be extended in order to plug it in.


Realistically, i don't think it would make too much difference to tuning anyway. Not unless you were building some mega race engine or something.

[oneredED]

Originally Posted by Sox

I know you don't know, that's why I'm telling you.

: I don't know about anyone else but i absolutely lost it when i read that :

[Sox]

Originally Posted by oneredED

: I don't know about anyone else but i absolutely lost it when i read that :

LOL, nothing like a bit of FFA humour. :

Rick.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

LOL, nothing like a bit of FFA humour. :

Rick.

Seems a bit more like arrogance to me, but meh. :P

[INJECTED_250]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Seems a bit more like arrogance to me, but meh. :P

dont know what made u think that dave

[LG]

The Pacemaker 4499's (T.Y) are the original Pacemaker design. Then in October 2003, Pacemaker built and introduced a new design for EA-AU, known as the Competition Headers/Series, which are a tuned length.

Now this is taken from the Advance Headers site:

At Advance Headers, we have over 28 years of experience in the industry. All our headers are Interference design or T.Y. which are best suited for standard or mildly modified engines revving up to 6,500 RPM. This design gives much higher torque and horsepower figures than tuned type which work well in the mid to high rev range, e.g. 5,000 to 9,000 RPM.

Also HMS have Headers for the 4L, which are HPC Coated, and include a High-Flow Cat. For around the 900 mark, not quite sure.

My 2c. If i were to get some headers, I'd look at HMS or JMM Race Series. Other than that a dump pipe from a turbo looks very appealing!!

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

These are the advanced extractors. I would cut the last collector off and weld in two sections of pipe, and more the cat back accordingly. The question would be how much to cut and weld.

i was quoted about $100 to get that done, but didnt trust the quality of the welds inside the pipe so decided against it.

[neb]

back to the thread topic.... i'm leaning towards getting the pacemaker comp's mainly because of the price of the other 2... plus pacemaker comps sound like they will be fairly good. and i would get them in heat proof coating as well.

[niko]

apparantly jmm headers are made at hi-tek headers

[Thanatos]

That would actually make sense, because the other day I saw some Hi-tech Headers at a shop, and they looked exactly like the normal JMM headers. Not too sure whether the primary diameter was identical or not, but it was definately smaller than the normal pacies.

[Damo]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

yer, i agree with Rick, i reckon at least 12inches would be good....

lol sorry i had to quote it.. :baby bott :

[Thanatos]

hahahaha

Doh! :P

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Seems a bit more like arrogance to me, but meh. :P

Hey, I said it several times and you still said you don't know, what more can I say? I'm just telling it like it is.... :

Rick.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

Hey, I said it several times and you still said you don't know, what more can I say? I'm just telling it like it is.... :

Rick.

What i was saying, is that i didn't know the exact figures required to make use of the extra pipe diameter.

And i have seen no evidence that you do either. (Which is not a dig at you, because without EXTENSIVE research no one would be expected to know).


That didn't stop you, however, from chucking figures into the mix.

At Advance Headers, we have over 28 years of experience in the industry. All our headers are Interference design or T.Y. which are best suited for standard or mildly modified engines revving up to 6,500 RPM.

The advance headers have a bigger primary than the Hm Headers I was talking about. The advance headers suit engines revving up to 6,500rpm, That's a far cry from the 9,000rpm you were throwing around (for extractors with a SMALLER primary)!

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

What i was saying, is that i didn't know the exact figures required to make use of the extra pipe diameter.

And i have seen no evidence that you do either. (Which is not a dig at you, because without EXTENSIVE research no one would be expected to know).

That didn't stop you, however, from chucking figures into the mix.

As I've already said, the figures I used are based on my experience. Working within the industry, many years racing a 10sec drag car (with which I hand made several sets of headers), and many of my own road car projects.
They are close to enough to prove my point.

The advance headers have a bigger primary than the Hm Headers I was talking about. The advance headers suit engines revving up to 6,500rpm, That's a far cry from the 9,000rpm you were throwing around (for extractors with a SMALLER primary)!

I'm not sure what you mean by the last part in brackets. I didn't mean the 1.5" primary was ok up to 9000rpm if that's what you mean.

What I am saying is that the primary pipe diameter of 1.5" on a 4L I6 is ideal for applications at least up to 6500-7000rpm. They will suffer almost no loss up to these revs, and will very well from low revs also.

A larger primary pipe size will help above these rpms, on the other hand they will hurt performance below 4000rpm.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of many I6's spinning over 7000rpm.
Even if there was the odd I6 spinning this high on the street, it would still predominantly be sitting at a rpm range between 2000rpm and 4000rpm, with the occasional blast to the higher revs. To use an extractor with larger primaries even on an engine such as this will lose more power across it's whole lower rev rev range than it would gain at the upper rpms.

That's why I pointed out extractors with a primary pipe diameter will only have any real advantage with an engine designed to produce it's power very high in the range, eg between 7000-9000rpm. An engine such as this will only be used on the drag strip, and will never need to be used below 6000rpm, so will not suffer the low end performance drop.

You must realise that the primary pipe diameter is closely related to the exhaust valve size and exhaust port size. Almost all modified I6's have 41mm exhaust valves, with similar size ports. This is more or less a given.

Primary pipe length and configuration is a far better way to tune extractors, without suffering too much losses elsewhere in the rev range.

If you feel I come across as arrogant, I apologise, as that's not my intent.

Rick.

[AdzT3-146]

Sorry to drag this up guys but does anyone know of a good place in eastern suburbs of melbourne that do exhaust and extractor packages and are reasonably priced.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Sox

As I've already said, the figures I used are based on my experience. Working within the industry, many years racing a 10sec drag car (with which I hand made several sets of headers), and many of my own road car projects.
They are close to enough to prove my point.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last part in brackets. I didn't mean the 1.5" primary was ok up to 9000rpm if that's what you mean.

What I am saying is that the primary pipe diameter of 1.5" on a 4L I6 is ideal for applications at least up to 6500-7000rpm. They will suffer almost no loss up to these revs, and will very well from low revs also.

A larger primary pipe size will help above these rpms, on the other hand they will hurt performance below 4000rpm.

I don't know about you, but I don't know of many I6's spinning over 7000rpm.
Even if there was the odd I6 spinning this high on the street, it would still predominantly be sitting at a rpm range between 2000rpm and 4000rpm, with the occasional blast to the higher revs. To use an extractor with larger primaries even on an engine such as this will lose more power across it's whole lower rev rev range than it would gain at the upper rpms.

That's why I pointed out extractors with a primary pipe diameter will only have any real advantage with an engine designed to produce it's power very high in the range, eg between 7000-9000rpm. An engine such as this will only be used on the drag strip, and will never need to be used below 6000rpm, so will not suffer the low end performance drop.

You must realise that the primary pipe diameter is closely related to the exhaust valve size and exhaust port size. Almost all modified I6's have 41mm exhaust valves, with similar size ports. This is more or less a given.

Primary pipe length and configuration is a far better way to tune extractors, without suffering too much losses elsewhere in the rev range.

If you feel I come across as arrogant, I apologise, as that's not my intent.

Rick.

I appreciate the apology, mate, cheers ;)


Just to clarify the point i made earlier:

You stated that unless an engine is revving above 6500rpm, that primaries bigger than 1.5" would be useless.

According to the Advance Headers website, their extractors are suitable up to 6500rpm. However, their extractors have the same size primary as the standard pacemaker headers (bigger than 1.5", and also bigger than the HM Headers mentioned earlier).

So, if the advance headers are only suited for up to 6500rpm (according to them), how can the HM headers (which have smaller primaries than the advance headers) be only useful in the 7000-9000rpm range like you stated?

Hope that makes things a bit clearer, mate ;)


Cheers,
Dave

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Thanatos

I appreciate the apology, mate, cheers ;)

Just to clarify the point i made earlier:

You stated that unless an engine is revving above 6500rpm, that primaries bigger than 1.5" would be useless.

Well, not useless, but certainly not as good as it could be.

According to the Advance Headers website, their extractors are suitable up to 6500rpm. However, their extractors have the same size primary as the standard pacemaker headers (bigger than 1.5", and also bigger than the HM Headers mentioned earlier).

So, if the advance headers are only suited for up to 6500rpm (according to them),

They are suited for rpms up to 6500rpm.
They are also suited for rpms up to (perhaps 7500rpm, or 8500rpm).
They will also have less low down power than the same header, with 1.5" primaries.

how can the HM headers (which have smaller primaries than the advance headers) be only useful in the 7000-9000rpm range like you stated?

As you know, I gave examples. I don't know the exact primary diameter of the H&M's or the Advance headers.
Obviously the larger the primary pipe, the more power is sacrificed down low.

Rick.

[AusXH]

Dont mean to hijack the thread.

But, has anyone with extractors fitted found they produce or amplify a ticking noise? If so what brand and or type.

I have the regular pacemakers on mine and I've searched for the source of the ticking noise which only began after the installation of the extractors. I can say for certain its not the lifters, not the injectors and not an exhaust leak and have come to the conclusion that the lack of meat in the walls of the pipes allows combustion noise to travel or something.