IR Rallies Claimed a "Flop"

[RIPGMH]

How narrow minded must one be to honestly believe that

Originally Posted by nicholas

little Johny just wants us (the average Joe) back in our holes accepting his shite. and his new IR Laws are the first big step in achieving this in the future.

Really what is "little johny" gain in this? The GST was the same, scare mongers professing that 80% of small business in Aust. would go under in the first year of GST. It didn't happen, I'm no proponent of the GST or "little johny" but this country is in it's best economic state it has been since the 50's. Do you people really believe this govenment sits around and produces ideas on how to $%^ over the working class? The only difference between Howard and previous PM's is that he will do something he believe's will benefit the country whether its political suicide or not.

[zetec]

I've been silently thinking about a question for a while now, months in fact.

What if Howard wins the next election? Will there be strikes for decades until Labor gets in to "rip up" the laws? Or would the Unions take a back seat and admit defeat given the majority of the population must agree with Howard (or not support Labor if you prefer)... it will be an interesting year, despite the noise being made about Howard doing all the bad things, if he gets re-elected... what then?!! I take no side to the debate, given I know little about it and don't want to swallow my own foot but it will be an interesting year.

[MrSparkle]

The protesters made my lunchtime walk a bit slower, that's all! Hell, I already have no sick leave, annual leave, maternity leave, etc. etc. rights in general, and I get paid more for the "privilege". It's a choice that I made though, and the difference in outright $ was significant.

I do sympathise with the argument against bastard employers who will take law changes and exploit them in order to shaft decent hard working employees. Problem being that it turns into a "he said, she said" scenario and who on the outside can tell if it's the employer or the employee who is being the ***!

Ah well, back to my cubicle...!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Unions are vital to Australias democarcy. They are one of the power bases of the federal opposition. A strong democarcy requires a strong vocal opposition. Weaken the opposition and our democracy is weakened. I'm sure some would welcome the end of unions, be careful what you wish for!

Were vital to Australian democracy. In their current state I beleive they arent! They do not support the average worker, they do what is in there best interests and need a good kick up the bum to get back to the grass roots where they were many years ago (before the 70's & 80's when they went totally nuts). They are a business themselves, taking money from the general population with only a vested interest unto themselves. When they trully support the workers rights and stand for what they should, then I would change my opinion.



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[BAFalconXT]

I didnt even know this rally was on until today, when it was to late to go. The Liberal party has taken all power away from Unions, thrus erroding most of the protection they can give to workers. THE ONLY THING GOOD ABOUT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS PETER COSTELLOS MANAGEMENT OF FINANCIAL POLICY!

The unemployment rate has fallen because they have changed the definition of "employed" as 1 hour a week.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by auslandau

I dont know everything about IR and I can bet you 'what ever' that 90% of those that attented today would know 90% less than me.

That's a big call auslandau, but you are welcome to your opinion.
Four members of my family attended and they have a good idea of what is going on.

My Father has a Bachelors in Economics, among others, and 40+ years in managment, he was there.

Burnie Fraser ex-reserve bank governor,(no relation) addressed the crowd to voice his disaproval of the new IR laws.

It was not rent-a-crowd, informed people are unhappy with the IR laws

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by zetec

I've been silently thinking about a question for a while now, months in fact.

What if Howard wins the next election? Will there be strikes for decades until Labor gets in to "rip up" the laws? Or would the Unions take a back seat and admit defeat given the majority of the population must agree with Howard (or not support Labor if you prefer)... it will be an interesting year, despite the noise being made about Howard doing all the bad things, if he gets re-elected... what then?!! I take no side to the debate, given I know little about it and don't want to swallow my own foot but it will be an interesting year.

The majority of Australians did not vote Liberal (More than 50%). The Liberals got the most votes and formed a government in coalition with the National party.
This does not mean all the other parties take their bat and ball and go home.

You must have seen parliment on the TV. Yes, I know it looks like a bunch of school children. We pay both sides of government to sit in Canberra. The opposition is paid to oppose!! Or at least offer alternatives, and hold the government accountable for it's actions. That's Democracy, the more we have the better off we are.

When one side has too much power, and uses it to nobble their opposition futher we should all be worried.

This is what is happening at the moment IMHO.

[fmc351]

You realise the difference between the two (union, company), is who has the power. The idea one is fairer than the other is nonsense, and deliberately misleading. But one thing is certain, the company has far more incentive to act in a manner contrary to the employees interests.

The sackings, are guided by profit maximisation, not slacking off. You rehire them for less money. You wouldnt??, you will when youre uncompetitive in the new market you play in. Please dont tell me, 'no Ill go broke first' or 'it wont happen to my business'.

Look at some history. Before unions, the workplace was a very unsafe environment. The conditions were harsh, and the rewards low. The necessity for work is and was used as a means to keep employees inline, that hasnt changed. All those conditions in the original post were gained by unions and their PROTESTS. Have they gone too far, maybe. But dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Every employer is governed by one over-riding concern, profitability. When the competition engages in practices that hurt workers conditions, in order to cut costs, the good employers must follow suit to stay in the game, and keep their investment. It may be the new millennium, but for most employees, it will feel like the beginning of the last one. You will be serfs, owned by your employer. If you have a mortgage and or children, when push comes to shove, you have little choice but to comply or lose your job. Youll get another one?? Under the same or worse conditions.

Oh and unemployment is at historic lows, HA! Shifting the goal posts will do that. If you are employed for 1hr a week even at minimum wage, and otherwise on the dole, you are classified as employed and dont make the statistics for unemployed. The figures used to say 'lowest in history', is a comparison to a time where you would be classed as unemployed. Im much lighter than i was 10 yrs ago, but I dont weigh my legs anymore.

Businesses have their own unions, they just call them different things such as the various Chambers of Commerce, the unions are the workers only such group. Lets not forget the ability of a businessman to make political donations that are equal to, or higher than the average annual wage. As unions do with Labor, business does with Liberal.

[4.9 EF Futura]

I was suprised at the size of the crowd in Adelaide. I had to get across the road they were marching down... didnt feel too "welcomed"... its probably fair to say a lot of the protestors dont like "the suits", but was disappointing to hear a couple of their comments. For all they know im a card carryer myself!!

But i digress.

Y'all know my thoughts on the reforms. But ignoring this, i think its important to allow people's right to protest to flourish. Theres also the possibility that a few people signed up to the union whilst they were there - something that the unions definately need.

I gotta say, it was disappointing to see the unions encouraging parents to bring their children (the radio ads "And bring the kids along"... like it's a f---ing carnival or something???). I dont care if the kid is a genius - a 10 year old DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES and i think its sickening to have them marching for something they dont understand. Very very very poor form IMO.

Oh and unemployment is at historic lows, HA! Shifting the goal posts will do that. If you are employed for 1hr a week even at minimum wage, and otherwise on the dole, you are classified as employed and dont make the statistics for unemployed. The figures used to say 'lowest in history', is a comparison to a time where you would be classed as unemployed. Im much lighter than i was 10 yrs ago, but I dont weigh my legs anymore.

This argument is very tiring. Yes, they changed they definition of employment, like every commonwealth govt before it... but even ignoring these changes, the economy is healthy and more people work than ever have before. Your (and many others) fear mongering is doing more damage than any percevied eriosion of workers rights.

Thankfully the flaw in this argument is well publicised. Hold on to it for dear life if you want....

Have you noticed that the ONLY people telling workers

- they dont have a leg to stand on
- they dont have a bargaining position
- they will end up living in poverty

Are the unions and those who support them???

Shouldnt they be empowering their members? Telling them they ARE valuable and they DO have a leg to stand on. Yes - the potential for abuse of the new laws exists, but examples are few and far between. The only ACTUAL abuse of workers is coming from the unions themselves.

BTW FMC you'll find that most of the big companies make considerable donations to both major parties. The reason should be fairly obvious.

[jimmy_c]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

I do sympathise with the argument against bastard employers who will take law changes and exploit them in order to shaft decent hard working employees. Problem being that it turns into a "he said, she said" scenario and who on the outside can tell if it's the employer or the employee who is being the ***!

Ah well, back to my cubicle...!

Yeah I fully agree with you. But at what price do we stop at that our way of life becomes poverty and we are owned by the place we work for.

I still dont understand whay howard is upto but it seems the people are very sheepish.

[GreenMachine]

I can't leave these forums alone for a minute...

Won't enter the serious debate, but I do object to people saying that 90% of the people there didn't know why. On the whole, they were incredibly well-educated as to the issues with the laws, thanks to a well organised campaign by unions and the ACTU.

As fmc351 said - the employers have always had almost total power over an individual employee, unions have always been the way to bring that power balance back to even. WorkChoices has pulled the rug out from under Australian workers, but unfortunately it is going to take us 20 years to realise.

While I'm objecting to things - Children at an unruly protest? Did you watch the news, chief? I've been to more unruly cricket matches! I was particularly impressed by the BLF and CFMEU in Brisbane who had all the kids standing at the front of their group together, away from the rest of the crowd.

For all of those who hate unions - I hope you enjoy annual leave and public holidays, because they were brought to you by the union movement, and we'll all miss them when they are gone.

That is all. Can we please not have any more of these threads? It raises my blood pressure and its too hard on my keyboard.

[Sourbastard]

I remember a history thread which blatantly showed how little many people remember of what has happened in the past.

Dont let TV do your thinking for you, pick up a book, or even go online and see what working conditions were at the height of the industrial revolution, and how much things have changed because of union action, and dont think it was just all lawyers gabbing away at a tribunal.

There was no tribunal. Unions fought for what they got from blood in the street, fighting the police, the government, the company owners and hired gangs paid to break up union protests.

I sit in the middle of this argument, but I am not blind to what has been achieved and what it cost those who bought it for you.

[nugget378]

To those that say unions have lost there relevance,have no power anymore,dont do anything for the worker?
Have you actually been a member,or even asked for there help?
I have worked on building sites my whole life,I have seen employers shaft people,not get paid there entitlements.even employers (more than a few) not pay the tax on workers wages to make a buck.
Just bankrupt one shelf company and start under another numerous times,when the ATO catches up to all this they go after the workers,it takes a couple years mind you.
When you see men get maimed and killed on jobs,then you see the same safety situation on the next one,and the company does nothing till the union comes in and hurts there pocket?
When you have been around a little and seen all this then come and tell me unions arent relevant,they do nothing and are out for themselves.
Now I know there are some bad unions out there,who seem to not have there members interests at heart,and I know which ones they are,I wont name them,but we call them a right wing or bosses unions.
What is needed for unions to be more relevant?
They need to be way more militant IMO.
None of this nancy negotiation,and diplomacy,I am on the coalface and I know what the guys around me think,there only dissapointment is this,they say that the union is not militant enough.
Afterall the management of a company is militant on its own behalf.

[Work Horse]

What this thread still not closed :king:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Have you noticed that the ONLY people telling workers

- they dont have a leg to stand on
- they dont have a bargaining position
- they will end up living in poverty

Are the unions and those who support them???

Burnie Fraser addressed the Melbourne gathering. He is hardly a Union stooge. I'd rate his economic credentials a little above your own, on offence
So to did many ordinary workers that have already been effected by the new IR laws.

Who's right and who's wrong will depend on your polictical bias. This issue will have an influence on the outcome of the next election. People need to educate themselves about what is actually going on. Not just be blinded by dogma.

What we all must agree on is everyone has the right to protest as they see fit. Even if we don't agree with what they are protesting about.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by nugget378

They need to be way more militant IMO.
None of this nancy negotiation,and diplomacy,I am on the coalface and I know what the guys around me think,there only dissapointment is this,they say that the union is not militant enough.
Afterall the management of a company is militant on its own behalf.

I agree there. Ive noticed how the integration of unionism into politics has dulled the unions into a legal mindset. When a union action can be declared "illegal" and the union sends lawyers to deal with it instead of just doing it anyway, and the union actually be fined for the action its already taken, its obviously gone too far into the real of 1000 dollar per hour legal vultures.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

I agree there. Ive noticed how the integration of unionism into politics has dulled the unions into a legal mindset. When a union action can be declared "illegal" and the union sends lawyers to deal with it instead of just doing it anyway, and the union actually be fined for the action its already taken, its obviously gone too far into the real of 1000 dollar per hour legal vultures.

bring back the days of Norm and the BLF..been a while since we could fly the southern cross with pride...

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

That's a big call auslandau, but you are welcome to your opinion.
Four members of my family attended and they have a good idea of what is going on.

My Father has a Bachelors in Economics, among others, and 40+ years in managment, he was there.

Burnie Fraser ex-reserve bank governor,(no relation) addressed the crowd to voice his disaproval of the new IR laws.

It was not rent-a-crowd, informed people are unhappy with the IR laws

Well they were part of the 10%? Didnt say 100% and I of course generalised as no-one stood there and made sure they understood. They 'like me' can only go by what they have read, told, directed or whatever.

The unions are pushing a barrel and pushing damn hard, as do the liberals, labor, greens and unions. Of course opposition is good, even these discussions on the forum where I have said before has been very good and interesting discusion without slinging mud. In my situation as a company owner, it wll not change the way I employ, hire or fire and no union is going to tell me I have to employ twits. This is NOT a charity and will keep those on that do good for all of us and pay very very good money to those that are worth it. Any employer that does different doesnt have the best interest of their company in hand.



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[gozza]

Some people make them selves indispensable

Also some people to a degree need to rememeber the paths theve taken that brought them to where they are today...and not scape goat current issues

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

While I'm objecting to things - Children at an unruly protest? Did you watch the news, chief? I've been to more unruly cricket matches! I was particularly impressed by the BLF and CFMEU in Brisbane who had all the kids standing at the front of their group together, away from the rest of the crowd.

For all of those who hate unions - I hope you enjoy annual leave and public holidays, because they were brought to you by the union movement, and we'll all miss them when they are gone.

That is all. Can we please not have any more of these threads? It raises my blood pressure and its too hard on my keyboard.

Hate unions? Well strong word but dislike alot more like it. Did they do well years ago? Yep. Are they worth their pinch of salt now? Nope. Since the BLF days they have strived to maintain there significance by making noise. As I have said before, all they need to do is SUPPORT the worker in some areas of work place and get back to basics. As far as holidays etc that they fought for years ago, they did well. Then I rekon they forgot why they are there.

Kids at rallys? absolutley disgracfull. They should be protesting about the loss of the yellow wiggle. Kids do not need to be there to make the numbers up. What is the purpose? Sympathy vote?

Sorry it makse your blood boil. I am enjoying it at the moment! :1syellow1



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[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Hate unions? Well strong word but dislike alot more like it. Did they do well years ago? Yep. Are they worth their pinch of salt now? Nope. Since the BLF days they have strived to maintain there significance by making noise. As I have said before, all they need to do is SUPPORT the worker in some areas of work place and get back to basics. As far as holidays etc that they fought for years ago, they did well. Then I rekon they forgot why they are there.

Sorry it makse your blood boil. I am enjoying it at the moment! :1syellow1

I get fired up easily - I think I might go off and start a Clevo head thread...

Why do you say unions aren't worth a pinch of salt now? I work for a union, and one of the sectors that I'm organising in (1400 educators) just broke out of a 3 year pay freeze and put in place a fair, equitable collective agreement with pay rises in line with CPI for the next three years, solely through collective strength, with our support. And the didn't even have to go out on the grass.

Whilst this ideological argy-bargy is good sport, I couldn't care less in the end - unions exist so that workers can advance themselves, and that's what I do every day.

Edit: Kids have always been a big part of rallies - Some of my earliest memories are from Labor Day marches. Its about the culture you're brought up in. Try to see it like taking kids to the rugby league. They don't need to understand when they're little, but they will see it as they mature. Ask any 10 year old on the MUA truck at Labor Day why they're there - they KNOW.

And really - there hasn't been a fight at a union rally for 20 years.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by nugget378

They need to be way more militant IMO.
None of this nancy negotiation,and diplomacy,I am on the coalface and I know what the guys around me think,there only dissapointment is this,they say that the union is not militant enough.
Afterall the management of a company is militant on its own behalf.

Yep thats we want....BLF days, stand over tactics, blood on the street. Unions to be more militant? Yep that would be wonderful : out: Bring the kids along to those rallys.

I agree that some large corporate mamangent are laws unto themselves but really.............. :yeees:



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[It'sTheVibe]

Can't speak for other industries, but very few colleagues from my workplace attended the rally. Why?? Because we're considered an essential service and operate 24/7. If we took a 'sickie' to attend, that could be construed as unlawful industrial action. The consequences of which could be financial suicide!!

I was a liberal voter until Mr. Howard et al bought in these new IR laws. Not anymore -they have swung the pendulum too far in the employer's favour. My workplace is about 98% unionised, white collar, and generally considered to have a fair bit of clout. Not anymore.

During our last certified agreement negotiations, we were made one offer - take it or leave it. There is absolutely no incentive for the employer to negotiate in good faith. If we give notice of any industrial action, (even a 1 hour stop work meeting so all the staff can be addressed) the minister can arbitarily terminate the bargaining period (the action is then unlawful) and about 2 months later we are only entitled to the minimum wage and about another 4 conditions.

Had to laugh at Johnny in his press conference following the Labor victory in Victoria. He claimed the result was a reflection of state issues only. WRONG; this lame little duck voted labor primarily because of Federal policies. :

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

I get fired up easily - I think I might go off and start a Clevo head thread...

Why do you say unions aren't worth a pinch of salt now? I work for a union, and one of the sectors that I'm organising in (1400 educators) just broke out of a 3 year pay freeze and put in place a fair, equitable collective agreement with pay rises in line with CPI for the next three years, solely through collective strength, with our support. And the didn't even have to go out on the grass.

Whilst this ideological argy-bargy is good sport, I couldn't care less in the end - unions exist so that workers can advance themselves, and that's what I do every day.

You could always start a 3V vs 4V thread :

The dealings I have had with unions, only a very few, have been not pleasant and these ones do not give a crap about the betterment of the company and the employees as a group. Its the 'us vs them' attitude that I mainly dislike and as what I would consider a fair employer and pretty much always been in managemnt find them looking out for their own job and worth and not really giving two hoots about individuals. OF COURSE all unions may not be like this............only from my experiences.



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[Sourbastard]

Well everyones had a say, gonna lock this down now as its gone well and hasnt exploderered.