Victoria Police Article

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Whatever mate, you want to try and back pedal I'm not interested in pulling more of your posts apart. Anyone can read them for themselves and make up their own mind.

I'm not interested in "the facts" of the case reported in the first post. Neither am I interested in "the facts" you claim to have regarding a friend of yours. Except to say your friend never took her complaint to the police or faced a cross-examination in a court. You can be sure the policewomen knew what she was in for in court. If you or anyone else seriously believe women make false claims of rape all the time, go and sit through a rape trial.

I've been through it, ****head , and A LOT worse than what happened in that news report. And the friend I was with on schoolies didn't go to the police because (as we found out later and got word from the guy, who was oblivious) there was more to the story than what was first said. She'd also been involved in other 'suss' cases before.

I'm not back peddling anything, I said just what I did and you didn't pull any of my post apart. Quoting single sentences with rubbish (can I say, putting words in my mouth) answers doesn't equal pulling them apart at all, so get off your high horse. I'm not even going to bother pulling apart YOUR 'responses' to my quote right now, and i'd prefer this thread not to get de-railed.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

And I, along with others in this thread, weren't discussing actual rape victims, but people who have sexual relations then feel guilty and call rape. If you read what I wrote earlier, it's happened to me with a girl I was with, except it was consensual and she was feeling guilty afterwards. How is that fair on the other guy, just because she couldn't face up to her actions?

This is our first post where you pass judgement on a women claiming to be an actual rape victim. No edits or anyone putting words in your mouth.

Originally Posted by Van D

I do have trouble beleiving that she was asleep the whole time. How can you stay asleep while someone half undresses you, then starts to touch and kiss you?

It's a touchy subject but one i've kind of been involved in..

Late last year/early this year I was with a girl with a few problems (home/relationships etc). She was fairly flirty, especially when drunk, but it was kind of her nature. On schoolies after I left their place she was 'aparently' raped. She said that she woke up with one of my old friends inside her and then ran straight out.

At first I was disgusted with him and shocked/angry, then I remembered her nature, and his (he was a real nice guy). Then I heard her tell me she was still clothed (in shorts but still it 'somehow' happened) whilst asleep. She'd also had many past experiences with people taking, or trying to take 'advantage' of her.

I added it all up and just left her behind (figuratively, lol). On that perticular night I have little doubt that she had consensual sexual relations with him then felt guilty or was worried i'd find out.

Yet, if it was reported in the news as a 'rape on schoolies' etc, what would you be reading?

I'm not saying the female officer is lying, but I do find it hard to beleive that's the truth.

If you don't believe it's the truth, she must be lying there is no middle ground.

You draw questionable conclusions using unrelated stories, then cry like a baby when someone calls you on it.

To gain a conviction in a court of law the prosecution must prove their case, "beyond reasonable doubt". In any case where there are no witnesses, just he said she said, there will always be doubt. So the benefit of doubt must be given to the defendant. The concept of beyond reasonable doubt is common knowledge, a policewomen would know it or have it pointed out to her by legal representation.

A trial involves hearing all aspects of the events leading up to an alleged offence. Critically an accused person has the right to question their accusers version. Defence council will attack the accusers character to defend their client.

Most court cases are a matter of public record, and can be splashed across the media in a variety of "edited" accounts. Often the content is presented in a sensational way to sell more soap powder for the media outlet.

I'm not questioning any of this. My point is the policewomen in the original article would have been aware of this also. Having all of her actions scrutinised in public for all her, friends, family and work colleagues to hear. Yet she still went ahead with it? The policewomens situation is a world away form your example, your friend cried rape and then withdraw it. And who you now admit has a history of it.
Van D you claim unique insights into a story in the media about a court case you didn't attend, because you know someone who didn't go to court for a similar thing and "you have kind of been involved". You get your panties in a twist when your opinion is questioned. You get defensive and back pedal when I try and flesh out exactly what it is your unique insights are. Then you attack me personally because your unique insights turn out to be bogas and you can't make an argument to support you opinion.

Not me mate, but some other people might think you are being a bit of a ****@r.

By all means have the last word :

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

This is our first post where you pass judgement on a women claiming to be an actual rape victim. No edits or anyone putting words in your mouth.

If you don't believe it's the truth, she must be lying there is no middle ground.

You draw questionable conclusions using unrelated stories, then cry like a baby when someone calls you on it.

To gain a conviction in a court of law the prosecution must prove their case, "beyond reasonable doubt". In any case where there are no witnesses, just he said she said, there will always be doubt. So the benefit of doubt must be given to the defendant. The concept of beyond reasonable doubt is common knowledge, a policewomen would know it or have it pointed out to her by legal representation.

A trial involves hearing all aspects of the events leading up to an alleged offence. Critically an accused person has the right to question their accusers version. Defence council will attack the accusers character to defend their client.

Most court cases are a matter of public record, and can be splashed across the media in a variety of "edited" accounts. Often the content is presented in a sensational way to sell more soap powder for the media outlet.

I'm not questioning any of this. My point is the policewomen in the original article would have been aware of this also. Having all of her actions scrutinised in public for all her, friends, family and work colleagues to hear. Yet she still went ahead with it? The policewomens situation is a world away form your example, your friend cried rape and then withdraw it. And who you now admit has a history of it.
Van D you claim unique insights into a story in the media about a court case you didn't attend, because you know someone who didn't go to court for a similar thing and "you have kind of been involved". You get your panties in a twist when your opinion is questioned. You get defensive and back pedal when I try and flesh out exactly what it is your unique insights are. Then you attack me personally because your unique insights turn out to be bogas and you can't make an argument to support you opinion.

Not me mate, but some other people might think you are being a bit of a ****@r.

By all means have the last word :

I thought i'd start by correcting you on a mistake in your first sentence. I was saying that I don't think the article is 100% truthful, which I stated again later in the thread. And yep, I could have worded it better, but I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't exactly how it happened. She may not be lying parse, but the reporters and editors have a way with twisting words as we all should know, and as others in the thread stated, you sometimes have to read between the lines.

And as for my "unique"? situation, I have been through a rape case that is completely unrelated to this girl mentioned earlier (hence me saying, i've been through a case when you asked), and much closer to home. Which is why I feel strongly on this matter both ways. I'll leave it at that as I don't feel a need to discuss it with you. You calling it 'bogas' is out of line to me though and deserves some backlash from my point.

Feel free to quote some more of me and "debate" it. I think you'll find the only reason I started defending what I said however is because you took it the wrong way..

Originally Posted by Van D

...with the general attitude of most guys towards scantily clad women who are drunk whilst being flirty with them, there can come some very bad actions and consequences.

Originally Posted by Work Horse

But FFS do not assume to speak for the rest of us.

As said earlier, I wasn't speaking for all of guys (ie. you, or me). I said from my experience when out, you'll see most guys trying with women in that state of mind. It's a generalisation, hence, in general.

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I don't understand the distinction your are making between guys in bars and men in general. I go out to clubs/bars.

I was talking about alcohol induced events, such as above. Does that clear anything up?

I also did not state anywhere that this results in women deserving to be raped, as you pulled from somewhere earlier, i'm not sure where you got that from (and was offended somewhat). I said it worries me that it can happen because of some women not realising what they can get themselves into with the wrong guys because of general attitudes of some people (same as anyone in any bad situation, not singling out women).

As for unrelated stories..

Originally Posted by Van D

And the ladies who are wearing little clothing and happy to drink a lot (and make a scene of it) definitely get the most attention.

Hypocrisy..? What is your point? I know it's a free country and they can wear and act as they please (within the law), but that doesn't mean some scum out there won't take advantage of it (which was my point).

Help clear anything up? I don't see how others putting words in my mouth makes me a "****@r".

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

Feel free to quote some more of me and "debate" it. ".

Alrighty then

Originally Posted by Van D

As said earlier, I wasn't speaking for all of guys (ie. you, or me). I said from my experience when out, you'll see most guys trying with women in that state of mind. It's a generalisation, hence, in general. ".

You form an opinion based on your observations. You don't speak for anyone but yourself.

Originally Posted by Van D

I also did not state anywhere that this results in women deserving to be raped, as you pulled from somewhere earlier, i'm not sure where you got that from (and was offended somewhat).

You are offended because you didn't read what I wrote.

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Attracting a lot of attention from guys=I want to be/have no defence when/deserve to be, raped by guys?".

It was a question(see the question mark), I was trying to get you to explain what you meant. I'm still no clearer.

Originally Posted by Van D

I said it worries me that it can happen because of some women not realising what they can get themselves into with the wrong guys because of general attitudes of some people (same as anyone in any bad situation, not singling out women).

I believe this has been where our opinions differ, although it is excruciatingly hard to understand what you are refering to.
IMHO it's not about women getting themselves into anything because of how they are dressed, what they drink or who they talk to.
Perhaps your efforts could be put to better use trying to change the attitudes of men.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Alrighty then You form an opinion based on your observations. You don't speak for anyone but yourself.

I know that, hence this being a forum, where I can express MY opinion. I never said I speak for all guys. I said from my experience, which is just what it was. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

You are offended because you didn't read what I wrote. It was a question(see the question mark), I was trying to get you to explain what you meant. I'm still no clearer.

"Attracting a lot of attention from guys=I want to be/have no defence when/deserve to be, raped by guys?".

This to me, is a very poorly written question and I find it hard to understand correctly. But if you are asking if three questions at once, no I don't think they want to be/there's no excuse or defence for it from either side IMO/they definitely don't deserve to be. Does that answer them then? I've already stated that they don't deserve anything, I said it worries me how some can get into a situation with sometimes being oblivious to what can happen.

I believe this has been where our opinions differ, although it is excruciatingly hard to understand what you are refering to.
IMHO it's not about women getting themselves into anything because of how they are dressed, what they drink or who they talk to.
Perhaps your efforts could be put to better use trying to change the attitudes of men.

I'm referring to what I just said above. Not everyone in this world is innocent, and some scum prey on those who are incapacitated when drunk. Women need to be careful who are they are flirty with IMO, just the same as I should not be wording off to the wrong bikey gang, or dealing drugs with the wrong people. You have to be aware of the world around you, as you said, this is 2007, there's a lot of things that can get you stabbed/beaten/raped etc in this day and age.
As for my efforts, I don't know what efforts you're talking about, but I definitely do try to change the attitudes of some men, who seem to be stuck in times of old. Whether that's the smartest thing to do i'm not sure, that itself has gotten me into trouble before (and it seems quite a few others on this board, read through threads where guys have stuck up for women being beaten, there's some on here who got the treatment themselves and if I recall right, one got stabbed. It's 2007 after all).

We have different opinions of course, I by no means hold anything against you and am not attacking you, but hope that helps clear mine up.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

We have different opinions of course

Of course, and I defend your right to hold whatever opinion you wish.
We seem to be in fierce agreement about most stuff.

I agree it is not a utopian world, but Australia in 2007 is a great place to live.
I agree bad things can and do happen to people all the time. Rape (or the reporting of) is on the increase, so women especially need to be careful.

There are many myths surrounding rape, so it's important that women get the most up to date informaton.
Most rapes don't occur outside, they take place at the victims or perpetrators home.
Most rapes don't involve strangers.
Rape does not have to involve physical force.
Rape is about power, not sexual attraction.

Some light reading if anyone is interested
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/vpt/vpt1.html
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/p.../spangaro.html
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/statistics.html#police

It's a myth that, flirty, drunk, provocatively dressed, young women are raped by sex crazed mad men that cannot control themselves.

Van D you are right to "try to change the attitudes of some men, who seem to be stuck in times of old". It's obvious to me from this thread you have no reservations about expressing your point of view, good on you.

[Van D]

Yep, and I agree with all that.

Don't want to go too far "off" topic or offend anyone reading on, but the points you make are very correct and valid.

I was told at my workplace not too long ago about one of the women who work there. Whilst bed ridden at home and having a call nurse come around to tend to her, a man came in (not sure if they knew him or not, he'd have to know the situation though) came in and forced her to watch him rape the nurse. I felt sick and angry for the rest of the day.

There was also a case in Chirnside park a few weeks/month ago now (both areas near me) where a blind woman was raped in her home. It's absolutely disgusting what happens, but hits you more when it happens around where you live (and you hear about it).

Oh, and work horse - Gotta voice my opinion now before that gets taken away from us too! :P