New HSV supercar confirmed as W427 build reduced

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

All the T series cars and FPV's are worthless going on what some people think but show me a prehistoric gt that goes stops and handles like a new performance vehicle they don't and thats a fact. The old gt's are worthless to todays 20y.o because they don't have a blow off valve so using that criteria jap puss is collectable.

The thread is far enough away from the topic without adding this old chestnut.

Now.....where were we.

[JG's33's]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Geeezzz..... before you go off on a hissy-fit tantrum have a read of what i wrote, its fact, prove me wrong, show me any australian buit car fetching 4,5,6 upto 20 times its original purchase price i.e blue chip premium collectable cars that don't have direct racing pedigree... its not my opinion its a fact.
That's not to say people don't want or like other models, im just pointing out they don't command the dollars and interest of the "bathurst specials"....
AGAIN... like i said, im not sure how todays cars will be viewed in 20 - 30 years like the current "bathurstld specials" are today...

It's a bit hard to judge at the moment Norm. Most of the HDT, HSV, Tickford, and FPV cars are still relatively new in the whole scheme of things and some are starting to command premium price tags. The 4,5,6, and up to 20 times original purchase price didn't really happen until the muscle car era cars were 30-40 years old and this may be due to a number of reasons and not related to any race history. I suppose each purchaser with his varied amount of available funds have their own reasons for wanting a 70's muscle car and it may or may not be due to it's race history. I suppose only time will tell. One thing is for certain though, all the clubs and enthusiasts that are around now were not around in the early 70's. Cars were bought for their performance and most were driven hard, abused and ultimately destroyed. The number of current muscle cars that are bought and now babied from day one will only result in their numbers staying high down the track probably at the detriment of values.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

All the T series cars and FPV's are worthless going on what some people think but show me a prehistoric gt that goes stops and handles like a new performance vehicle they don't and thats a fact. The old gt's are worthless to todays 20y.o because they don't have a blow off valve so using that criteria jap puss is collectable.

In My very unknowledgeable Opinion (so no one precious gets offended) the collectibility or "value" of performance cars as demonstrated by their sales prices is not based on relative outright performance...
Everyone knows a BAGT would out brake and Handle a Phase 3...
What's the resale value of a BAGT or T series at the moment..? enough to make you cry i bet.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JG's33's

It's a bit hard to judge at the moment Norm. Most of the HDT, HSV, Tickford, and FPV cars are still relatively new in the whole scheme of things and some are starting to command premium price tags. The 4,5,6, and up to 20 times original purchase price didn't really happen until the muscle car era cars were 30-40 years old and this may be due to a number of reasons and not related to any race history. I suppose each purchaser with his varied amount of available funds have their own reasons for wanting a 70's muscle car and it may or may not be due to it's race history. I suppose only time will tell. One thing is for certain though, all the clubs and enthusiasts that are around now were not around in the early 70's. Cars were bought for their performance and most were driven hard, abused and ultimately destroyed. The number of current muscle cars that are bought and now babied from day one will only result in their numbers staying high down the track probably at the detriment of values.

Hey i agree with you, it will be hard to judge, cars like this W427 may go up, or may not.
Dont forget though in 1981, only ten years after the phase 3 was sold they were fetching 20+K already... phase 2's over 10K...
How many 10 year old cars are worth 2 - 4 times their original price today?
The thing that people tend to forget is the current crop of enthusiasts like you and me who buy "collectable" cars aren't old enough to even remember them... so its not like its an "oldie" thing.... We love our modern stuff too.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

All the T series cars and FPV's are worthless going on what some people think but show me a prehistoric gt that goes stops and handles like a new performance vehicle they don't and thats a fact. .

No they dont have all the bells and whistles .... ie brakes! ..... compared to todays cars but that is a different arguement on their worth? Collectability and comfort dont go hand in hand!

Originally Posted by fpv84d

The old gt's are worthless to todays 20y.o because they don't have a blow off valve so using that criteria jap puss is collectable.

Agree slightly. Its just that many young people dont have the oportunity to sit/drive/own one unless there ol' man has one ..... then there is buggar all chance they will get to drive it. Take a 16 year old for there first drive in one though and watch there eyes light up ........ "You serious this is 30 years old? I had no idea they were like this .... I want one" Was one comment I got.



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[Gobes32]

Since when don't young people like old cars?

[JG's33's]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The thread is far enough away from the topic without adding this old chestnut.

Now.....where were we.

This is what happens when somebody puts a Holden story in a Ford Forum. We all drift off topic and start arguing amongst ourselves. You should ban the fella that started this damn thread!!!!!!!

[flappist]

I believe that the whole muscle car thing is driven by the people who could not afford them at the time but lusted after them now have enough money and there are more buyers than there are cars (well up to a few weeks ago).
Now any twenty something year old can get a loan over 7 years and buy umpty dozen GTs, GTSs, and some of the rig pigs and pit monkeys can afford W427s. Who really will buy cars they could have and did own 30 years ago? (and will gen Y finally be out of bankruptsy by then)

The race heritage is a bit misleading. Yes we all watched bathurst. Yes we all drooled. But the top of the pile, the XY GTHO Phase3 never actually won so how does that work?
The GT Cortinas (that won more than GTHOs) are worth about 20c each or 3 for a dollar and the Vauxhall Cresta, Merc 220, Falcon XL, Cooper S and XJ-S, all bathurst winners, are usually sold by the kilo.

On the other hand, E37, E38, E49, GTHO P1, P3 & P4, HG GTS, LC XU1 all pull pretty good bucks and never got a gong.

They are like the hot chick from school, lots of fond memories and if she were unatainable back then she still holds allure. If on the other hand she was "friendly to you" then it is more of a "been there done that what else is available"

[mongoloid]

Originally Posted by flappist

The GT Cortinas (that won more than GTHOs) are worth about 20c each or 3 for a dollar

Did anyone go for the '3 for a dollar' deal? cause they'd be gettin ripped.

[T3ts50]

As I recall HSV have said in the past that they will build 427 7.0L HSV's whether that be 427 W427's or put the 7.0L in a different model.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by flappist

I believe that the whole muscle car thing is driven by the people who could not afford them at the time but lusted after them now have enough money and there are more buyers than there are cars (well up to a few weeks ago).
Now any twenty something year old can get a loan over 7 years and buy umpty dozen GTs, GTSs, and some of the rig pigs and pit monkeys can afford W427s. Who really will buy cars they could have and did own 30 years ago? (and will gen Y finally be out of bankruptsy by then)

The race heritage is a bit misleading. Yes we all watched bathurst. Yes we all drooled. But the top of the pile, the XY GTHO Phase3 never actually won so how does that work?
The GT Cortinas (that won more than GTHOs) are worth about 20c each or 3 for a dollar and the Vauxhall Cresta, Merc 220, Falcon XL, Cooper S and XJ-S, all bathurst winners, are usually sold by the kilo.

On the other hand, E37, E38, E49, GTHO P1, P3 & P4, HG GTS, LC XU1 all pull pretty good bucks and never got a gong.

They are like the hot chick from school, lots of fond memories and if she were unatainable back then she still holds allure. If on the other hand she was "friendly to you" then it is more of a "been there done that what else is available"

Ok Tony... I'll bite!... What was Moffats 65E car if it wasn't a XY P3?

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Since when don't young people like old cars?

I was told by a higschooler after admiring my XE that I should put a 2JZ in it :

[burnz]

Originally Posted by T3ts50

As I recall HSV have said in the past that they will build 427 7.0L HSV's whether that be 427 W427's or put the 7.0L in a different model.

if your refering to the gen III 427 monaro then yes, and you know the result.
the "W" 427 is a question mark in my book, does the "W" pay homage to the w series 427, 396, 454,, or is it actualy a "W" series engine.

(note) all "W" series engine's from early 50's were big block's, these engines are wedge
type combustion chamber head with hemispherical ports (the "W" relates to wedge, the dipstick is on passenger side, the rocker cover's are w shaped)

[GTP owner]

Using motorsport as the pedigree by which we judge as to whether a car is desirable or not is a narrow form of thinking. There are people who desire cars for more than just how successful they are on a closed circuit.

Example 1 is an the 48/215 holden. Highly desirable and worth far more than they were when new not because they were winners on the track, but because of their affinity with being the first aussie car.

Example 2 is any GS model of falcon from the late 60s early 70s. These did not win bathurst, so do not fit into this type of thinking, but their value is far in excess of what they were originally priced at.

I know that the $750,000 gtho is used as the example of desirability, but this forgets that the earliest fx holden sold for more, and cost less when new.
The last hsv coupe with the stroker also sold for a mil. It did not have any motorsport pedigree either.

Conversely, the gt cortinas were highly successful, but do not command the silly high prices of the ho's. Or even nissan gt-r's are worth less than were originally, but they were even more successful!

I could go on, but in the end the hsv wd40 will be desirable because of its nature as the pinnacle of Australian cars. Nothing we build here is as fast, and the way the economy is going, we may never see anything like it again. I was close to buying one, and in many ways would still like one, but it was not to be. I think that i am not an orphan in this.

[my gt]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Don't start with that tired old line.

ask and you shall receive

[flappist]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Ok Tony... I'll bite!... What was Moffats 65E car if it wasn't a XY P3?

According to everything I have here 1970 & 1971 were both XW Phase 2s but a guick google found that the V8sc site reckons 1971 was a XY Phase 3 so maybe it did have a win. I am sure there will be someone with a tape of it to confirm either way.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by flappist

I believe that the whole muscle car thing is driven by the people who could not afford them at the time but lusted after them now have enough money and there are more buyers than there are cars

Bingo

Originally Posted by flappist

The race heritage is a bit misleading.

Bingo again!

Mate you are so right. Being a teenager and coming from this era, I have always thought this, that is, "when I grow up I will buy one of these when I can afford it". Part of this did stem from Bathurst no doubt but most of us just lusted after these cars because of the sheer muscle and beauty combination linked to the romance of our youth This was a great era to be alive! This was also enhanced by one or two decades of bland people movers that both Holden and Ford (especially Ford after dropping the V8) served up. This was also on the back of a very similar world energy crisis that started in 1979 and ended with a turndown on the world economy as well.

For those of you that were not around then, they actually ran Bathurst through the 80's as well but a lot of those cars (except for the Brocks) really are not collectable these days as of yet, "Bathurst pedigree" or not.

The world has changed a lot since the start of this century and the writing is on the wall. We are entering a much more conservative period that will affect the auto industry and the cars that they serve up for the next decade or so as a whole. The party is over (at least for a while) while today's greenies and bankrupt car makers sort them selves out, so these cars again today may represent the last of beauty and brawn of this era. History repeating itself? I think so.

There will be plenty of teenagers that would have been seduced by today's FPV and HSV models that will be fuelled by deep pockets in twenty or thirty years time, mark my words. I think the Phoon, Cv8Z, and 6.2 ltr HSV's will be top of the list. No Bathurst icons here!

As for the W 427, it already starts off with a premium price, but it will still be very exclusive no matter what happens.

[GTP owner]

fpv have promised so much, yet delivered so little on that front. I would now argue wrong product at the wrong time. It would not receive the hurrah's by the media that the wd40 got, while being pasted for being overpriced and a fuel guzzler. A modern GTHOs time has passed. This is proven by the holden failing.

[Gobes32]

How about this scenario, People buy old cars because they know when they drive it down the street, adult males will turn and stare and at that point in time you know your poop don't stink.

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by burnz

if your refering to the gen III 427 monaro then yes, and you know the result.
the "W" 427 is a question mark in my book, does the "W" pay homage to the w series 427, 396, 454,, or is it actualy a "W" series engine.

(note) all "W" series engine's from early 50's were big block's, these engines are wedge
type combustion chamber head with hemispherical ports (the "W" relates to wedge, the dipstick is on passenger side, the rocker cover's are w shaped)

The "W" stands for Walkinshaw. What I meant was the LS7 will still be used but under a different name ie. GTS-R maybe. HSV have stated that they will build 427 LS7 powered HSV's, whether that be all in W427 or in a different name.

[510car]

Hi Flappist,
Allan Moffat's win in 1971 was definitely a phase 3.It was memorable for being such a convincing win. He absolutely thrashed the opposition,and he had the box stuck to the front of his car for a number of lap's.

Cheer's.

[barbarian]

$150 for a Holden? No thanks.. with the Nissan GTR out i know which one i'd spend on if i had the money.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by 510car

Hi Flappist,
Allan Moffat's win in 1971 was definitely a phase 3.It was memorable for being such a convincing win. He absolutely thrashed the opposition,and he had the box stuck to the front of his car for a number of lap's.

Cheer's.

Ys, the Moffat 1971 Bathurst winner was a Phase 3...
1971 was also the last 100% genuine "off the showroom floor" Bathurst too....

[510car]

Absolutely Correct "4Vman."

Cheer's.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What's the resale value of a BAGT or T series at the moment..? enough to make you cry i bet.

Not in the slightest, i purchased my TE50 to DRIVE so couldnt give a rats. But thanks for asking

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Go and iron your flannie and have a winnie blue whilst sipping a VB.

Then bend over and get your prehistoric dinosaur head out of the sand. You and your "any car made post ADR27 that has never gone on a racetrack is crap" bull is really wearing thin.

I can name plenty of cars that Id love to have in my garage that have never even been close to a bloody racetrack and just because they dont meet your own personal standards, doesnt mean they dont meet other peoples.

Bloody flashlube - you're supposed to put it in the car, not drink it. That's about the only explanation I can think of for your posts.

Here here thankyou

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman
What's the resale value of a BAGT or T series at the moment..? enough to make you cry i bet.

Dont want to get in too involved here but out of interest ....... what was the price of an XW - XY GT 4 odd years after release? I am sure they hit fairley low and some points of there life?

Best thing about the resale price on a BA GT or especially a T series is if I wanted to buy one to have fun with ...... the fact is I could!



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[burnz]

hang on you bloke's i thought this was the holden bashing thread.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Dont want to get in too involved here but out of interest ....... what was the price of an XW - XY GT 4 odd years after release? I am sure they hit fairley low and some points of there life?

Best thing about the resale price on a BA GT or especially a T series is if I wanted to buy one to have fun with ...... the fact is I could!

Actually I remember some mob in Sydney who were "de-lumping" GTs and GTHOs (as in fitting them with cams more suitable to towing caravans) in the mid to late 70s as they were difficult to sell due to the fear that fuel was going to go bezerk in price as GTs/GTHOs were mongrels to drive in a sedate fashion on ordinary crap roads of the time with aquaslip tyres. It probably made sense at the time but now with 20/20 hindsight was probably not so clever.

This is a glorious time for buyers as 2 years ago was a glorious time for sellers. The circle will turn. T3/BAGT will start to go up again in a couple of years and maybe will be worth lots or maybe not. Who cares.

If you want a T3 there was one sold the other day for 16k. There are BAGTs for bugger all more. This is what you paid for a secondhand XR6 N/A only a year or so ago.

Stop crying and start spending, it won't last. (hence why I have just bought an ED Sprint and have my eye on a BA1 GT-P if I can get it for the right price).

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by flappist

Actually I remember some mob in Sydney who were "de-lumping" GTs and GTHOs (as in fitting them with cams more suitable to towing caravans) in the mid to late 70s as they were difficult to sell due to the fear that fuel was going to go bezerk in price as GTs/GTHOs were mongrels to drive in a sedate fashion on ordinary crap roads of the time with aquaslip tyres. It probably made sense at the time but now with 20/20 hindsight was probably not so clever.

This is a glorious time for buyers as 2 years ago was a glorious time for sellers. The circle will turn. T3/BAGT will start to go up again in a couple of years and maybe will be worth lots or maybe not. Who cares.

If you want a T3 there was one sold the other day for 16k. There are BAGTs for bugger all more. This is what you paid for a secondhand XR6 N/A only a year or so ago.

Stop crying and start spending, it won't last. (hence why I have just bought an ED Sprint and have my eye on a BA1 GT-P if I can get it for the right price).

........ and to think 3 years ago when I bought my second hand BA XR6 for 25k I thought how well I had done ...... next year up date time :



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