W427 finished

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

$200K+, but I reckon the BMW M3 could take on the W427 and thats $145K.

And a Yamaha R1 would spank everything for only 20K..... you're not comparing apples with apples, the M3 is a medium sized car... mondeo is its size equivalent...
The logical equivalent cars to the commodore and Falcon are the E series Merc, 5 series BMW ans 6 series Audi.... in their performance versions all 250K+++ propositions.. now the W427 looks pretty cheap in that company..

[GT69]

lol considering for $150,000 your buying a limited edition vehicle, compared to a run-of-the-mill euro car

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by b2tf

It is this train of thought that will ensure that Australian manufacturers cannot sell things like W427 - if it had a Merc badge on it I am sure it would have sold a hell of a lot more. People want all the euro trimmings on an Aussie sedan budget and it just doesnt happen. You cant expect Ford/Holden etc to be able to produce euro style/quality cars when nobody buys the cars they build now - which for the record I think personally stand up to any beemer etc. Development costs money which is brought in by sales of your product and when you have people whinging about the product and not supporting it it won't go very far.

I personally would rather support Aussie companies and jobs and, in my opinion, get a better car for my money, rather than shell out just for the sake of a badge.

You know, I actually partially agree which makes this sound completely contradictory to my statement you quoted, I'm for the Australian cars, but this is $150,000 we're talking about here, not $50,000. I know lots of people who discredit Ford and Holden because of their badges, but this is one time where I'd have to agree with them.

Also, not to mention, the European brand also carries more weight in the "shock and awe" department from the general public, especially for a car of that price. You'd get more comments and praise for driving a super expensive euro car then you ever will out of a W427 besides the motoring enthusiasts. Lets be serious here, most people buy these expensive cars for the looks and the reputation or because they can, not because they race it at a track.

[Elks]

I know this is not how they do it but...

The issue to me is you can buy a GTS $75K list, some trim $5k, Brakes $5k, Wheels $5K, 7.0l Vette engine $20K (eagle spares) thats $110k total allow for details I don't know total $125K

Now sell off HSV wheels, ap brakes, and 6.2 motor. if you couldn't get $15K I'l go hee.

So $150k is too much. I don't care what it cost to build, it cost too much to buy. Remember there is a lot of people who can't see the value in a HSV over an SS. $95K and make a 1,000 of the suckers makes more sense. A volume manufacturer worrying about the value of a car in 30 years is nuts.

I do add my voice to the the people giving them a cheer for having a go.

T

[GT69]

And you'd get more 'shock and awe' from the general public driving around in an XB hard top than any of the things you listed. So that being the argument. Go buy an old ford and save yourself $125,000

[Ghosn]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Wow the 427 was a whole 0.2sec quicker, makes that extra $70,000 more so worth it. If the F6 has as wide tyres as the 427 it would beat it easily.

Good for you. He made an 'INCORRECT' statement and I pulled him up on it, don't get your knickers in a knot at me.

And don't give me 'ifs' or make assumptions. I could add 'ifs' to the W427 too?

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Also, not to mention, the European brand also carries more weight in the "shock and awe" department from the general public, especially for a car of that price. You'd get more comments and praise for driving a super expensive euro car then you ever will out of a W427 besides the motoring enthusiasts. Lets be serious here, most people buy these expensive cars for the looks and the reputation or because they can, not because they race it at a track.

Disagree, I have seen one W427 around here (regional NSW) and believe me it turned heads the whole way up the street - even the mums and dads were looking at it, and I reckon most of that would be for the sound alone.

I think you'll find that most people can identify a Falcon/Commodore whereas if you're anything like me you see a Euro car and get lost in letters and numbers by which point it's driven past and you have no idea what model it was.

However each to their own and at the end of the day I still maintain my support for any Australian Company that is willing to have a go at sticking it to the common misconception that we cannot compete on a world level automotive playing field. I may be biased but I would put my FG up against any Euro and still find it a more involving, engaging and downright fun drive - for a hell of a lot less coin.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by GT69

And you'd get more 'shock and awe' from the general public driving around in an XB hard top than any of the things you listed. So that being the argument. Go buy an old ford and save yourself $125,000

With Ford's reputation in this country, I doubt it. Everyone sees Ford as that crappy car company here. Ford has an image problem, not a problem with its marketing or its cars but lets not go off topic here.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by myts

I know this is not how they do it but...

The issue to me is you can buy a GTS $75K list, some trim $5k, Brakes $5k, Wheels $5K, 7.0l Vette engine $20K (eagle spares) thats $110k total allow for details I don't know total $125K

Now sell off HSV wheels, ap brakes, and 6.2 motor. if you couldn't get $15K I'l go hee.

So $150k is too much.

T

There's 10K in bumper and spoiler per car too.. add some margin to cover all the thousands of hours R+D, ADR compliance etc and its not hard to see where 150k went..

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There's 10K in bumper and spoiler per car too.. add some margin to cover all the thousands of hours R+D, ADR compliance etc and its not hard to see where 150k went..

but is it really that much better than your average hsv?
i don't know my euro cars, so could someone tell me what sort of european car you can get for $150k and how it compares to a w427? is it really that good (150k good)?

cheers, Anthony

[Ghosn]

Originally Posted by NJXR6

Cigarettes. Think about it.

Think about what? You posted a statement that was wrong and not very well thought out and now u have changed your tune after someone picked it out?

Originally Posted by NJXR6

For the money, I'd have an F6. As it would need SFA to make it match a W427, and it's half the cost. Imagine insuring one. Now imagine pranging it. Now imagine how long it will take to fix...and as good as it is, I couldn't justify it...you'd be scared to take that thing anywhere, it is far too rare.

Ahh Now it's modded vs factory? I'm sure the F6 would be legal too, yes?

And what does insurance have to do with anything? I'm sure an individual who can afford to purchase a 150k car can afford to insure it. Why would a person be too scared to take it anywhere? Maybe everyone who owns a 150k+ car should just leave it in their garage for dust collection going by your theory?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by velocity_avisGT

but is it really that much better than your average hsv?
i don't know my euro cars, so could someone tell me what sort of european car you can get for $150k and how it compares to a w427? is it really that good (150k good)?

cheers, Anthony

You could ask the same about the euro's too.. there is a law of diminishing returns.. "its cost allot to gain a bit"... you could argue a GTS is far more distinguishable from a Calais than a M5 is from a 530...

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You could ask the same about the euro's too.. there is a law of diminishing returns.. "its cost allot to gain a bit"... you could argue a GTS is far more distinguishable from a Calais than a M5 is from a 540...

true, but i'm asking wondering, do people reckon that it is really worth 150k (double a GTS)???

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by velocity_avisGT

but is it really that much better than your average hsv?
i don't know my euro cars, so could someone tell me what sort of european car you can get for $150k and how it compares to a w427? is it really that good (150k good)?

cheers, Anthony

And you could ask the question is a FPV vehicle that much better than say an XR8, you can go on for ages,
you have to compare what market these types of vehicle's are designed to meet.

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

And you could ask the question is a FPV vehicle that much better than say an XR8, you can go on for ages,
you have to compare what market these types of vehicle's are designed to meet.

do you think that, overall, the W427 is worth $76,010(RRP) more than a GTS?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by velocity_avisGT

true, but i'm asking wondering, do people reckon that it is really worth 150k (double a GTS)???

Everyone has a different "value system".. how we value things is based on a whole set of criteria unique to us all... there is no right or wrong answer.. people need to accept and respect that there is a big variation from person to person.. otherwise we'd all be driving the same cars...
Thankgod HSV ans FPV offer such cheap alternatives relative to their competition.

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Everyone has a different "value system".. how we value things is based on a whole set of criteria unique to us all... there is no right or wrong answer.. people need to accept and respect that there is a big variation from person to person.. otherwise we'd all be driving the same cars...
Thankgod HSV ans FPV offer such cheap alternatives relative to their competition.

Aussie Cars Rule! Amen.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by velocity_avisGT

do you think that, overall, the W427 is worth $76,010(RRP) more than a GTS?

And is a GT-P worth 25k+ over an XR8,
Just stop and think about the type of people these vehicles were aimed at and their respected lifestyle, the kind of people that drive around in 150k+ vehicle's therefore that 76k seem's a little more realistic when they are comparring these car's.

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

And is a GT-P worth 25k+ over an XR8,
Just stop and think about the type of people these vehicles were aimed at and their respected lifestyle, the kind of people that drive around in 150k+ vehicle's therefore that 76k seem's a little more realistic when they are comparring these car's.

W427= $155,500 (RRP)
GTS = $79,490 (RRP)
= $76,010 difference
of course you need to take those (^^ lifestyle etc.) things into a consideration, but is it seriously worth 76k more? The engine is different (it has .8 litres more!

and it has some minor cometic changes, but not 76k more.
It's been mentioned that it costs a fair amount to build it (4vman), but if they knew it was going to cost so much to manufacture (which would result in a higher RRP), why would you even consider making it the way they did?
In many ways, it is exactly the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H76hj...eature=related (2:40+)
cheers, Anthony

[4Vman]

In a recessed market 120 people saw value in it.. you'd have to say that in a buoyant market their original business model of 200 units was a "no brainer"....

[GT69]

Infact if 120 people have already bought them (meaning HSV are sold out of W427's) then the original figure of 200 could well be accurate. Whilst there is demand for a product.....

[4Vman]

Sorry to be pedantic but has anyone actually confirmed this 120 unit build????

[Scott]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Sorry to be pedantic but has anyone actually confirmed this 120 unit build????

Of course!! The HSV marketing department

[GT69]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Of course!! The HSV marketing department

Honestly, no idea.

[Coogs289]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Of course!! The HSV marketing department

convert it to normal figures....
120 actually equals 12.0

[Swordsman88]

As has been said by others, credit has to be given to HSV for having a crack. TO my knowledge Holden had squat to do with this project, at least in terms of production where they refused to install the 7.0 litre engine on the line forcing HSV to do all the work in house. All the development work was done by HSV and damn good work it was. I don't think anyone on here truly believes an F6 (or GTS, GT etc.) was really in the league of the W427, not as a complete package anyway.

BUT, as has also been noted, it was in its final prices, too expensive. My view is that it was never going to get that many M3, M5 E63 etc. customers, sure maybe a few, but the majority of those customers had the cash and/or the image to go for the badged beemers and mercs. Sure the W427 was better value but i don't think they were ever going to constitute the bulk of the market.

The 'cashed up bogan' as some would call them, the upper middle class with a love of aussie muslce cars and/or current FPV/HSV buyers were the more likely customers, whether to drive regularly or put it in the shed. This is where teh value equation comes into it. These buyers know its a great car, but they also know it probbaly isn't worth that much more than a GTS or F6. Certainly not when you compare specs on paper. The GFC certainly doesn't help either with many small business owners probably asking themselves 'do i really want to spend that much on a car? Particulary an aussie built car?'.

Image buyers didn't go for it, and guys after capability thought it was just too much coin for not enough gain. Whether that is true or not i don't know, i've never driven one. On paper at least they were probably dead right.

This situation means HSV makes a pretty big loss, but it also makes FPVs attempt at a future GTHO even less likely. EIther it is a true GTHO (W427 competitor) and its too expensive, or its a poor job at a lower price. Maybe the use of a blower and other bolt on V8 parts from the new cyclone will make ford's job easier, rather than a totally bespoke engine installation??? The whole W427 project was lineball to begin with, in the current climate it hardly stood much chance really.

[Scott]

The GFC has been rolling for close to 3 years. The writing has been on the wall for this project since it was first speculated when everyone said "awesome... but too expensive for a Commodore".

All is not lost for HSV though, this car will get recognition O/S and will build the brand for their export market. If 200 was the number of sales required to break even, then they wouldn't have lost too much by only hitting the speculated 120 - so little in fact that it still probably makes sense as a great bit of marketing and another Holden weapon to go down in Australian and Holden motoring folklore.

This will be the Holden to own - starting now.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How Pathetic...
HSV had a go, in fact they had a real dip, it is a ripper of a car, i was lucky enough to be involved in its development, it spanked anything else made here including the "fanboy favorite" F6.. . Its true "worth" is more than just number posted in mags, it is simply a fantastic car to drive.
Some of the comments here....., the failure of this car comprehensively kills any chances of a GTHO.. so don't be too quick to gloat...
Its price was as a result of its development and manufacturing costs, simple as that, "If" this car is limited to 120 units HSV have lost a fortune because they have committed to 200 kits of parts with their suppliers.... This will have a ripple effect elsewhere mark my words.

Oh, and anyone who tries to compare this car to the blown Walky Clubsport at 99K or other aftermarket non adr compliant offerings is kidding themselves about what FACTORY performance really costs...
This car has serious DNA.. not just a snail bolted onto it to make pretty dyno numbers...

my thoughts exactly . well said . and congrats on being involved . probably just the timing of release . and yeah no doubt that would threaten other projects .

[Loosecannon]

The way the car sales market is nowdays, I can't see the high end ($$$ wise) of HSV or FPV selling cars, they are trying to survive as it is , not really the time to be gambling on the sale of a car that will only sell to a VERY small market

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

$200K+, but I reckon the BMW M3 could take on the W427 and thats $145K.

Its does, and i'ld prefer it. Better quality, moneys worth.

Holden/HSV had a you can give them that, but they knew how this could go after 2 427 concepts.

Right car, wrong cost, wrong time...