Elderly couple caught up in a drag race.

[photn]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Is the VY designed to have its engine go through the firewall and into the cabin at 50 km/h?

No recent car is designed to have a an engine go through its firewall. They are designed so that the engine Dumps under the car..

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by jason71

One thing that everyone who is saying that the Camry driver was in the wrong haven't considered is the field of view the driver might not have had.
At the moment the Camry driver pulled out the commodores might not have been in sight due to vegetation in the medium strip ect. and due to the commodores fast approaching speed they hit them before they could finish crossing the road.
The speed limit is 60km/h for a reason.

I can attest to a section of road through St Marys on the GWH where the median is 6ft high thick hedge ... and the road is on the slight bend ... trying to turn across it into side streets is a difficult task (even when people do the 60km/h speed limit).

If the accident occurred where i am thinking ... the camry driver would not have see the approaching cars ... which would have been out of the field of view partially hidden by the hedge as well. The old couple didn't stand a chance against the oncoming vehicles.

I constantly drive this section of road ... and people always speed along it ... and literally everytime you get stopped at a light ... someone wants to race you off the lights ... i ignore them and let them go ... there's a lot of hoons in the area (in all types of cars).

Can't believe the driver of the Commodore was laughing on TV after teh accident at the scene ... I felt sick when i saw that.

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Can't believe the driver of the Commodore was laughing on TV after teh accident at the scene ... I felt sick when i saw that.

Yes, I punch in the face would have been in order. :

[kiwikid10]

Seems to be conjecture on the visibility of the old couple, I live in the area also, that should therefore qualify me as an "expert witness" (sarcasm on).
The turn they were trying to make is very visable and they should not have had any problems seeing the on coming cars. that said that particular set of lights is notorious for clowns who want to race you, my wife in the Fairmont and myself in my XR6 get lined up constantly there by all sorts. There is no condoning the action of the 2 idiots who were racing,It was a combination of factors that only the crash investigators will know and be able to solve (not people from other states with google maps), at the end they will make it public knowledge. I am not offering a whose at fault opinion just the facts about the area that google 3D maps doesn't give you.

Also the cops often hide just past the tyre place on the corner of the intersection catching idiots like these 2 who race from those lights which is posted at 60 km before the highway turns back to 80km 300m down the road from the intersection.So police presence in the area is not a factor just the luck of the draw that night.(If they were there then some real speed evidence would be available).

Interesting that the 3rd racer (Blue mazda) was let off, yet by all accounts he was side by side with the commodores, if that was the case he should also have been charged, This tells me that the witnesses are not exactly reliable.(my opinion only).

Tragic accident and 2 idiot drivers giving all performance enthusiasts a bad name.

Let the professionals solve the case, and then tells us what went wrong.

[ebxr8240]

There is NO vegitation on the east side [middle] of that intersection... The intersection is very long and its possible to turn early and end up in the other side of the road. If you are not aware of where you are...
By being hit head on ? I'd say this is part of the problem made worse by the speed of the driver in Commodores.. They may not have been going as fast as media say.. Plus I doubt the cars are "real" high performance cars either...

[dinga]

I wonder if the elderly couple had a green arrow to turn ???

Hopefully all this will come out in the investigation.

[ebxr8240]

Would have been green light but not arrow...
If it was an arrow the others would have a red light....

[HLC]

Originally Posted by jason71

One thing that everyone who is saying that the Camry driver was in the wrong haven't considered is the field of view the driver might not have had.
At the moment the Camry driver pulled out the commodores might not have been in sight due to vegetation in the medium strip ect. and due to the commodores fast approaching speed they hit them before they could finish crossing the road.
The speed limit is 60km/h for a reason.

no, from where the Camry was turning, there is VERY GOOD visibility. for severarl hundred metres.

for the camry to start turning from not seeing the commo's she would have had to have been driving at like 5kph, or the commos at well over 200+









speaking if idiocy, i had a bloke in a skyline try and "race" my self, and my other uni mate (in his skyline) off the lights at that intersection today. heh.

[T_Terror]

Originally Posted by HLC

no, from where the Camry was turning, there is VERY GOOD visibility. for severarl hundred metres.

for the camry to start turning from not seeing the commo's she would have had to have been driving at like 5kph, or the commos at well over 200+









speaking if idiocy, i had a bloke in a skyline try and "race" my self, and my other uni mate (in his skyline) off the lights at that intersection today. heh.

Did you win?

[FPV8U]

As much as it may hurt people to think outside their ACA/TT blinded eyesight the fact is whether the on coming cars were doing 150km/h or 80km/h, if that couple pulled out onto the road it would have ended in a collision most probably fatal.

As photn stated the law is give way, if they had have gave way the two commodores would have flown past and possibly got a speeding fine down the road, and the elderly couple would have got home safely and been able to watch ACA or TT hoon report the next night and bag out those young hoons from the night before.

And before everyone jumps to the defence of ridiculous police/witness estimates, try being on the other side of one like i am now, if i were you i would wait for the facts from the investigation.

As for his history it's far from flattering, but doesn't mean everything that has been said in the media reports is true either.

[Hunter]

So you expect people to give way to cars that are 1 km away? 2 km away? 3 km away? Even if you can't see them? Give way and if someone manages to hit you its your fault no matter what? That's ridiculous.

If you're in a 60 zone and you only have say 1 km worth of viewing distance of the oncoming track then really, you cannot be expected to know what is 1.1 km away.

What you're suggesting implies that people need to have some sort of precognitive ability and just 'know' what is coming at all times. That is patently ridiculous and if the law were so rigid that it saw it like this then we'd see many cases of innocent people being unfairly apportioned blame.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Hunter

So you expect people to give way to cars that are 1 km away? 2 km away? 3 km away? Even if you can't see them? Give way and if someone manages to hit you its your fault no matter what? That's ridiculous.

If you're in a 60 zone and you only have say 1 km worth of viewing distance of the oncoming track then really, you cannot be expected to know what is 1.1 km away.

What you're suggesting implies that people need to have some sort of precognitive ability and just 'know' what is coming at all times. That is patently ridiculous and if the law were so rigid that it saw it like this then we'd see many cases of innocent people being unfairly apportioned blame.

No, i expect people to giveway to what they see and take the time to take into account how fast the cars are coming towards them just like everybody else.

It's your job to make sure you are crossing at a safe period not the drivers coming towards you, and as has been said there was clear vision for quite a distance down the road.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

No, i expect people to giveway to what they see and take the time to take into account how fast the cars are coming towards them just like everybody else.

It's your job to make sure you are crossing at a safe period not the drivers coming towards you, and as has been said there was clear vision for quite a distance down the road.

You don't know that they could see them - only the accident investigators will be able to work this out. Anyway I think is ridiculous to suggest that if someone is *SPEEDING* well above the speed limit and plows into a car executing a turn that they aren't in any way shape or form responsible. Yeah if the old people had not of turned they *may not* have been hit but also if the speedsters were doing 60 km/h they probably would've been able to STOP. We've all had people pop out in front of us and hell I've had someone pull out of a carpark in front me while I was doing dead on 60 and I braked and came within centimeters of destroying their front-end. If I had been doing 70 well I probably would've hit them wouldn't I?

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You don't know that they could see them - only the accident investigators will be able to work this out. Anyway I think is ridiculous to suggest that if someone is *SPEEDING* well above the speed limit and plows into a car executing a turn that they aren't in any way shape or form responsible. Yeah if the old people had not of turned they *may not* have been hit but also if the speedsters were doing 60 km/h they probably would've been able to STOP. We've all had people pop out in front of us and hell I've had someone pull out of a carpark in front me while I was doing dead on 60 and I braked and came within centimeters of destroying their front-end. If I had been doing 70 well I probably would've hit them wouldn't I?

Nobody is saying what the two commodores was right, and yes they still are at some fault, but...

If it is a road with good visability, all it would have taken would be a little more concentration and the lady would have realised the two cars were going faster than they are mean to.

I myself have been in a simialr position, with two cars racing fron the lights coming towards me as i was about to make a turn, had i made the turn i would probably be in a wheelchair or hospital right now but i was alert of what they were doing and avoided the situation.

[photn]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You don't know that they could see them - only the accident investigators will be able to work this out. Anyway I think is ridiculous to suggest that if someone is *SPEEDING* well above the speed limit and plows into a car executing a turn that they aren't in any way shape or form responsible. Yeah if the old people had not of turned they *may not* have been hit but also if the speedsters were doing 60 km/h they probably would've been able to STOP. We've all had people pop out in front of us and hell I've had someone pull out of a carpark in front me while I was doing dead on 60 and I braked and came within centimeters of destroying their front-end. If I had been doing 70 well I probably would've hit them wouldn't I?

no one is disputing that the commodores are innocent. But you cannont soley blame them for the accident. remember it takes two parties.

The elderly couple where just in the wrong place at the wrong time and they performed the wrong manouvre.

Theres nothing more to it. its not the end of the world so dont get your nickers in a knot please.

And no offence but you are in QLD and politaclly this has nothing to do with your state, ware as here in NSW there will be so much hype about it, that the P platers will get another rule imposed. its just the way it goes.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by photn

And no offence but you are in QLD and politaclly this has nothing to do with your state, ware as here in NSW there will be so much hype about it, that the P platers will get another rule imposed. its just the way it goes.

Uh no we get the whole P plate thing here... we've only just taken on board graduated licenses and the two P plate system. Hell up until recently you didn't even have to show P plates full stop. There's a big campaign on up here about P plates and believe me, even though its down there, people up here get upset by it just as much as you lot do.

The only consolation I guess is that Beattie seems more intent on fixing the problems rather than just sticking another 50 cameras up (we don't have fixed cams, only mobile ones and they're reasonably easy to avoid).

[photn]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Uh no we get the whole P plate thing here... we've only just taken on board graduated licenses and the two P plate system. Hell up until recently you didn't even have to show P plates full stop. There's a big campaign on up here about P plates and believe me, even though its down there, people up here get upset by it just as much as you lot do.

The only consolation I guess is that Beattie seems more intent on fixing the problems rather than just sticking another 50 cameras up (we don't have fixed cams, only mobile ones and they're reasonably easy to avoid).

You guys are lucky in that regard. you have a government that intends on stopping the problem. not just throwing laws out there to satisfy the public. then the public still wonder why people are dying.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by photn

You guys are lucky in that regard. you have a government that intends on stopping the problem. not just throwing laws out there to satisfy the public. then the public still wonder why people are dying.

Nice to see that evan someone who works for the RTA , can see the serious flaws in their and the Victorian govenments aproach.

[Martyvan]

Looks like the stereotypical Drag Racer for the region has been SMASHED....

Two charged for street racing near fatal crash site

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Hunter

We've all had people pop out in front of us and hell I've had someone pull out of a carpark in front me while I was doing dead on 60 and I braked and came within centimeters of destroying their front-end. If I had been doing 70 well I probably would've hit them wouldn't I?

Years ago a similar thing happened to me.
I was turning right onto a main road,pulling a trailer,I could see the traffic stopped at a red light 200m down the road,and I started turning at about the same time the traffic got the green light,one driver took off like a top fueller,and tried to get around me just as I was completing the turn (going in the same direction) but he misjudged the lane I was entering and slammed into the trailer.
Well guess what?
It was still my fault for not giving way.
Its not give way unless you think you can make it,its GIVE WAY period.
Isnt it funny that the driver in the other commodore hasnt been charged,funny that when they have evidence of street racing.

[HLC]

Originally Posted by T_Terror

Did you win?

of course.....












i didnt. which idiot, knowing what happened there, would want to race off those lights? out of respect for the old couple that lost their lives there. AND, that the GWH is crawling with coppers now.

[digitalpunk]

Originally Posted by Martyvan

Looks like the stereotypical Drag Racer for the region has been SMASHED....

Two charged for street racing near fatal crash site

That's it!! Ban all P-Platers and young drivers from driving Camry's and Charades!!

I love how the first sentence of the article says:

Originally Posted by news.com.au

A DISQUALIFIED driver and a P-plater have been charged for street racing in Sydney's west this morning,

Then, a little down into the article it says:

Originally Posted by news.com.au

Police stopped the cars after they were allegedly speeding side-by-side.

I know there may be more to it then that, but saying that they were stopped because they were speeding side-by-side and street racing are two completely different things, plus, they don't even say how fast the two were going, they could have been just cruising a couple of k's over the speed limit together.

Can anybody tell me if WSID is still open on Wednesday nights for street cars?

[drcook]

the simple facts are:

1. the two west bound drivers, in driving above the speed limit of that area, put themselves into a dangerous position in regards to reducing their reaction times and distances in the event of an unforeseen obstacle (car turning in front of them, dog or child running across road, etc) and therefore contributed to the 'avoidability' and severity of the crash.

2. the driver of the camry, in turning right infront of on coming traffic, was the initiating cause of the accident itself. The rule book clearly states a vehicle making a right hand turn has to give way to any oncoming traffic and has to do it in a safe manner. If this is not possible (due to reduced field of vision, obstacles blocking view) the driver then should proceed to the next available (and safe) intersection to make the right hand turn (in this case, mamre rd, merely 100 metres further up the road).

3. The road 'environment' of the great western highway between kingwood and mt druitt is a disgrace, including 4-6 foot high thick shrubs (which seriously impede vision of oncoming traffic), terrible road surface, and intersections like the one in question having the availablilty of right hand turns when they have proven to be accident black spots in the past.

4. Looking carefully at several photos of the accident scene does not show any evidence of "tyres exploding". What it does show though, is that the damage on the camry in located in the front/side portion of the car. This would imply that the camry was barely into the intersection when the collision occured, which would then imply the two west bound drivers were very close to the actual impact site, when the camry proceded to make its right hand turn. This would imply that the camry proceeded to make a right hand turn when it was not safe to do so.

5. What this accident in particlular, coupled with scores more around the country each year, shows is that reckless driving (in all forms) coupled with dangerous intersections coupled with no form of licencing review system (for drivers of all age & experience) can have tragic results.

[dinga]

Originally Posted by drcook

4. Looking carefully at several photos of the accident scene does not show any evidence of "tyres exploding". What it does show though, is that the damage on the camry in located in the front/side portion of the car. This would imply that the camry was barely into the intersection when the collision occured, which would then imply the two west bound drivers were very close to the actual impact site, when the camry proceded to make its right hand turn. This would imply that the camry proceeded to make a right hand turn when it was not safe to do so.

This is why I think they may of had a green arrow to turn right!!

[drcook]

Originally Posted by dinga

This is why I think they may of had a green arrow to turn right!!

whilst i agree there may have been a possibility of this, there is a bit of a difference between having a car race with someone else to see who's car is faster, and actually racing through a red light. one's stupid, one's suicidal. i would think these guys loved themselves & their cars too much to knowingly go through a red light.

[Sourbastard]

This is very complex, but I think I have it worked out.

colonel mustard, with the VT commodore, in the Camry.

[Hunter]

Ok looks like there's been an update to this incident:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...52-421,00.html

Drag racer had taken drugs, say police

By Evelyn Yamine

September 22, 2007 12:00am
Article from: The Daily Telegraph

A STREET racer accused of killing a Sydney couple in a car crash was driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol, a court has heard.

Police claim cannabis, methylamphetamine and alcohol were found in Robert James Borkowski's system after he allegedly crashed his Holden Commodore in July while street racing, killing Alan and Judith Howle.

Borkowski appeared in Penrith Local Court yesterday for the first time after police charged him with five additional offences last month.

The 37-year-old now has to answer to two counts of manslaughter, two counts of aggravated dangerous driving causing death and driving under the influence of alcohol and drugs.

He faces nine charges, including dangerous driving occasioning death. The maximum jail sentence Borkowski faces has been upgraded from 10 years for the lesser charges to 25 years for manslaughter.

According to a police charge sheet filed to the court, Borkowski, of Claremont Meadows, allegedly caused the death of the Howles about 6.20pm on July 29 "while racing another vehicle and being at the time under the influence of cannabis, methylamphetamine and alcohol".

Police also allege he was speeding more than 45km/h over the speed limit on the Great Western Highway in St Marys.

Mr and Mrs Howle, aged 71 and 70, were driving back to their St Marys home after dinner when the accident allegedly occurred. The couple left behind seven children and 15 grandchildren.

Their son David and three other family members came to court for the first time to get a glimpse of Borkowski, who appeared via audio visual link from Parklea jail.

They did not wish to comment outside court.

DPP representative Rod Howle (no relation) said the police brief of evidence had been served but they were waiting for documents from a crash reconstruction expert and physical evidence.

He asked the matter be adjourned for six weeks.

Borkowski, who has been refused bail on two occasions, did not apply for bail yesterday.

But his lawyer Christopher Outzen said he wanted to approach the Attorney-General's office for contempt of court proceedings because Borkowski's photograph was being "plastered" all over the press.

Magistrate Georgia Knight ordered Borkowski to appear before the same court in November.

A second man involved in the alleged street race is being investigated but charges have not yet been laid.