Peter Brock overrated?

[Aaron_EF8]

If Brock wasn't the best touring car driver ever, who was?

I am a big DJ fan, but I'm not blind to the fact he massaged the rules just as much as Brock, he had the worlds fastest Sierras in the late 80s-early 90s, and did the car jump at Bathurst a few times. It's just that Brock was more successful at doing it.

[ED Classic]

Certainly the most successful of his time but very hard to compare to todays drivers.

Like comparing a champion Footballer from the old days to a modern champ in many respects its near impossible

[Smoke Pursuit]

is a dead man overrated? Seriously what the hell is with this thread? dumb...

[ehast13]

why is it dumb?

Is it dumb to compare/contrast the image of Winston Churchill as a great leader during WWII to his blundering WWI exploits.

Is it dumb to question the motives of ceasar before his demise.

Just because someone has passed away (and we ARE poorer for having lost him), does not mean that his/her acheivements cannot be critiqued.

A journo wrote an article claiming Brock was the best touring car driver the world had ever seen. I questioned that. I feel that he was excellent but not the best the world had ever seen. My thoughts and statistics and research are throughout this thread.

I'm not besmirching the guy. I'm not claiming he is buring in hell or that we should dig up his corpse and use it as a hood ornament on a reborn 2013 Front Wheel Drive Fairlane.

I question the claim made by the journo.

Is Rickard Rydell as good? Was steve soper better? Was Tom Walkinshaw more gifted? Why couldn't brocky match jim richards when they were team mates? whereas in the post group A era, Brockie shone while Jimmy went back to mid field? Why couldn't brock get the 850 volvo super tourer moving when Jimmy could? Why was Michael Delcourt faster in the wet at bathurst 87 in a vk than brock in his VL? was John bowe better? Was marcus ambrose better? Why did brock struggle when he tried out a nascar when Grice, Johnson and richards got em going real well?

Pete Geoghan? Allan Grice? Lowndes? Whincup? Matthias Ekstrom? roberto ravaglia etc

There are so many questions. Was gricey faster but not as good in the wet? Was the big budget a bigger contributor than than many would like to admit? Why did brock make perkins sign a contract not finish ahead of him? Was the brock PR machine more gifted than the man himself?

By your reckoning, no movie or documentary or debate or book or thesis or opinion an any person who was unfortunate enough not to be alive today is DUMB.

Life is about seeking information to fill our minds. I enjoy the discussion and have even learned a few things from this thread (and may have softened a few of my opinions too). Seeking information and the thoughts and opinions of others is never dumb.

I doubt anyone on this thread wishes to disrespect a great man and great Australian who gave Holden fans some one to cheer and ford fans someone to beat.

Like bradman, fangio or senna, debate will rage and we should keep memories alive and our opinions well founded with passionate arguments, well researched commentary
and respect for other people's opinions.

I respect your opinion bfiipursuit. I don't agree, but I don't think it is dumb that you are willing to question the validity of this thread.

[gcg2503]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I'm not besmirching the guy. I'm not claiming he is buring in hell or that we should dig up his corpse and use it as a hood ornament on a reborn 2013 Front Wheel Drive Fairlane.

Now that is some funny witty stuff right there!

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Is Rickard Rydell as good? Was steve soper better? Was Tom Walkinshaw more gifted? Why couldn't brocky match jim richards when they were team mates? whereas in the post group A era, Brockie shone while Jimmy went back to mid field? Why couldn't brock get the 850 volvo super tourer moving when Jimmy could?

So many questions. Such selective thinking.

Is Whincup better than Lowndes? IMO, NO but Whincup is better at car setup. Something Brock was never good at. And was Jimmy Richards ever Team Manager/Driver? Did Jimmy Richards drive underwhelming cars when he won championships? Nay, ask yourself if JR ever had bad machinery when he performed well?

To use your analogy, why did Mark Skaife thrash JR in the GTR and Winfield Commodores?

Setup, my friend, setup!!!

EDIT: One more thing... not many people bring up the fact that Brocky won Bathurst as a privateer in his L34 Torana. Yes he beat the factory cars!!!

[prydey]

bathurst is 1 race. winning it a lot doesn't make you the best driver ever.

if he wasn't dead we wouldn't be having this conversation. funny how when people die things tend to get magnified. bad people become not so bad. ordinary people become great people and great people become...

he was a driver who won a few races and had an extroadinary success rate at one of them. JR has 7 bathursts. thats only 2 less. not a huge chasm.

[Richmalbill]

An accolade that he was the best touring car driver of his day, sort of damns with faint praise.

To put his achievements in context, whilst he was undoubtedly king of the mountain in the late seventies and early eighties, that can hardly be viewed as anywhere near Alan Jones' achievement at the same time.

Peter Brock won Bathurst in 1980....Jonesey won the F1 world driver's championship. Sort of like comparing my 4-28 man of the match performance bowling legspin for Narre Warren F grade with Warnie winning the Ashes.

[drew`SEVNT5]

I thought he was an overrated so-and-so before he died, was my opinion meant to change when he wrapped himself around a gum tree?


If so, I missed that memo.

[MethodX]

Cant say he was the best in the world.
One of the best in Aus yes.

I never liked Moffat or Johnson, but they both had skill.

[tweeked]

I gotta say, anyone who is 6 laps in front then sets the fastest lap on his last lap of a 1000km race is my kind of driver.

How many times did he swap paint?

The newer drivers are cowboys by comparison.

i'm sounding old now aren't I?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I gotta say, anyone who is 6 laps in front then sets the fastest lap on his last lap of a 1000km race is my kind of driver.

without trying to put down the driver you are talking about, the six laps had more to do with only 2 outright cars not having trouble. the other finished 3rd and was not realistically an outright car being a true privateer. i suppose i am just trying to lessen the legend of the a9x in racing. it had no other manufacturer to beat and all but the lead/works car had problems that day - some driving errors, but alot mechanical

it was a totally dominant demonstration, similar to moff's in '71. he was over a lap ahead by 2/3 distance and then the others dropped like fly's. the six lap lead by lap 118 in 1974 was maybe more impressive

i personally do not have many kind words to say about him, but i would still rank him in my top 3 with moff and craig. jim would have to be fourth. as i have already posted, i did not have the pleasure of seeing guys like the geoghan's, jane, firth, beechey, matich etc in their prime




overall, i think he was over rated by some and under rated by others, but on driving alone i understand why he was a hero to those who supported him

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by MethodX

I never liked Moffat

that is a bit harsh isn't it

he won at monza and drove a monza - that has to tug at your heart strings doesn't it

[prydey]

it is impossible to lead by 6 laps these days due to safety cars.

can't really compare different era's. just have to look at what they did with what they have, and who they were up against.

brock could drive, yes but best ever? there is no answer to this debate. it will go on forever.

[Plugg3r]

Bottom line, he's a legend of this sport.

[whales]

Time to put this thread to rest

[The Mighty Red]

two words could strike fear into any race going Ford fan back in the 70's and 80's and those words were Peter Brock.....
Being a huge Ford Fan I hated PB when I was a kid,now I'm older I realise what a great racer he really was ..I have read on here that Brock had no competition, what a load of rubbish...and besides you can only beat whats put in front of you and Brock certainly did that.

Back in the 70's and 80's nobody cared about the ATCC championship it was all about Bathurst....back then win The James Hardie 1000 and you were the "Champion" and while times have changed and the championship holds some regard I still feel some drivers today given the choice would take a Bathurst win over the championship.
Allan Moffat & Dick johnson were my heroes and great drivers in there own right and gave me some great moments , Jim Richards was another great driver and has the respect of all race fans but Peter Brock was the star of the show.

Its difficult to judge drivers from different era's but I will say if that was a 35yr old Peter Brock chasing down Craig Lowndes at the end of this years Bathurst I wouldn't of bet against Brock catching and passing him.

[uranium_death]

Peter Brock has earned his rating.
Success is defined by results, and he got them.

I think it's pointless to argue the fact.

Growing up, I didn't care for cars much. The only two drivers I knew were Peter Brock, and Dick Johnson. An old friend of mine got driven around by Peter Brock in 1993 (was on Ray Martin) and from there, everybody was in awe.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by prydey

it is impossible to lead by 6 laps these days due to safety cars.

can't really compare different era's. just have to look at what they did with what they have, and who they were up against.

brock could drive, yes but best ever? there is no answer to this debate. it will go on forever.

It was more about the balls and self belief to set the fastest lap on that last lap while 6 laps in front. He could have put it in third and drve around at 60.

To take a Team America quote, I like balls.

Don't get me wrong, my dad worked for Ford for 35 years and we were made to sit in front of the TV all day for Bathurst. It really was Win on Sunday and Sell on Monday. The whole house was like a funeral that day.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I gotta say, anyone who is 6 laps in front then sets the fastest lap on his last lap of a 1000km race is my kind of driver.

How many times did he swap paint?

The newer drivers are cowboys by comparison.

i'm sounding old now aren't I?

No you're not sounding old.

The cars then were very fragile by the standards of today. Gearboxes/diffs failed and engines blew. Bathurst wasn't just a race, it was the race back then. I'm not sure that many of today's drivers could finish the race in the cars that Brock drOve back then because Brock had what a lot of drivers today don't have... MECHANICAL SYMPATHY!!!

[ehast13]

SSbaby - Jimmy was very successful as an owner driver in his own country before heading to OZ in the mid seventies. He was successful in his sidchrome mustang and finished equal first on point in the sports sedan championship in a his Big M xc coupe with Allan Grice. Gricey won the series on count back but he was driving a far superior mide engined, frank gardner designed chev corvair.

Jimmy was chosen to replace Brock in the turbo 318i in the early eighties, and again in the 90's with the volvo 850 (winning on debut). Jimmy won his 1989 championship in an r31 skyline. He won his 87 championship in an m3 (okay, it was a good car!). Jim lost the chamionship in 92 to skaife but flogged him in 93 in the winfield VP. Did brock ever win when he had a sub standard car (not 87, it may not have been 05 but it wasn't a heap of junk), a sub standard team (never!).

As for set up meaning everything, Jim was considered to be krap at car set up by both frank gardner and fred gibson. Was Peter's lack of set up skills (it's funny, because many will espouse Peter's skills at set up) worth over a second off the pace at sandown in 88? It wasn't the first time Jimmy flogged him by that much in the same machinery. Brock did really well right up to his retirement. He just never overwhelmed me as a driver. He was great in clear air but man, he had troubling passing unless someone ran wide or his car was much faster.

Was Peter that bad at set up? He always went on about his own skills in that area. One post on this thread claimed he set up a BMW's suspension so well that BMW gave him car to thank him (I've never heard that story before, but I'd like to chase it up).

Brock was great behind the wheel. More consistent than Johnson and faster than many of his team mates. He was still fast when he retired (still in the fastest car) and I doubt anyone will match his legacy.

Best in the world? One of the best. And equal to Jimmy Richards becuase they both had sucky days and sucky years but they usually drove the wheels off the things and rarely stacked em. I reckon jimmy was better than brock after retirement. I reckon jimmy was better in a greater range of machinery. I reckon Tom Walkinshaw was quicker than both of them.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Jimmy was chosen to replace Brock in the turbo 318i in the early eighties

that is news to me, especially since jim was already a member of the jps bmw team. to my knowledge the bmw gt car made its debut in 1983 with jim driving
brock had driven the bob jane monza in the class in 1982 and 1983 in selected rounds. alan grice sometimes drove the monza too
i could be wrong but i would not have expected brock to drive a non gm product in australia at the time

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Did brock ever win when he had a sub standard car (not 87, it may not have been 05 but it wasn't a heap of junk), a sub standard team (never!).

As for set up meaning everything, Jim was considered to be krap at car set up by both frank gardner and fred gibson. Was Peter's lack of set up skills (it's funny, because many will espouse Peter's skills at set up) worth over a second off the pace at sandown in 88? It wasn't the first time Jimmy flogged him by that much in the same machinery. Brock did really well right up to his retirement. He just never overwhelmed me as a driver. He was great in clear air but man, he had troubling passing unless someone ran wide or his car was much faster.

Was Peter that bad at set up? He always went on about his own skills in that area. One post on this thread claimed he set up a BMW's suspension so well that BMW gave him car to thank him (I've never heard that story before, but I'd like to chase it up).

Brock was great behind the wheel. More consistent than Johnson and faster than many of his team mates. He was still fast when he retired (still in the fastest car) and I doubt anyone will match his legacy.

Best in the world? One of the best. And equal to Jimmy Richards becuase they both had sucky days and sucky years but they usually drove the wheels off the things and rarely stacked em. I reckon jimmy was better than brock after retirement. I reckon jimmy was better in a greater range of machinery. I reckon Tom Walkinshaw was quicker than both of them.

Firstly, I don't think anyone cares about what JR achieved in NZ? It's the little league compared to Australia, which has long been regarded as having the best touring car series in the world. Although I do acknowledge the talent of JR. But to correct you on one point... JR just edged out Skaife for the title in 1991 and Skaife totally dominated in 1992 in the R32 GTR.

See here for all the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Au...ing_Car_season

Now please tell me how the following results conclusively indicate that JR was better than PB in the M3 of 1988...

Pos Driver Rd 1 Rd 2 Rd 3 Rd 4 Rd 5 Rd 6 Rd 7 Rd 8 Rd 9 Pts
4 Jim Richards DSQ 3rd 5th 5th 7th 5th 4th 5th 58
6 Peter Brock DSQ 5th 7th 4th 6th 5th 13th 5th 8th 47

I certainly think there is nothing conclusive one way or the other about the results... unless I'm missing something?

As I said, PB won Bathurst as a privateer. It was a sub-standard car compared to the 'works' entries at the time. For 3 years he was a privateer before joining the factory outfit again. In those 3 years he was also winning but not as frequently as when he headed the factory team. Yes, at times he struggled to fund his campaigns!!! Having the best equipment at his disposal meant he had no excuses... and he won nearly everything when he had the right equipment. He was outdriven by Grice on occasions with almost identical equipment but Grice overdrove the car and rarely finished.



And when Brock did drive the factory car, it wasn't always competitive. He nearly beat the mighty Jaguars at Bathurst in 1985 and probably would have won if he wasn't called in to have the rear window removed. Ultimately, a broken (single row) timing chain put pay to his heroic efforts that year. That drive was legendary!

To answer your question on setup, yes he was bad even though he was always considered the eternal optimist. He was nowhere near as good as Grice in dialling in a racecar. All he knew was how to drive. C Lowndes is a good example of how one of the best drivers today cannot get near his teammate because he lacks that important ability to setup his racecar.

And in case you like to forget how great Brock really was, he finished second outright in the Spa 24 hr race in 1977 in a 2.3L Vauxhall Firenza: .

Brock was definitely no mug and definitely not over-rated. Not when he has the most poles and a record that is still second to none. The fact that the media loved him is not his fault. The fact that Brock won mostly in Holdens isn't his fault either. But fair go, he did drive a Ford and demonstrated that he could beat the best Sierras in the world (DJ's) on his day... even if he didn't quite have reliability on his side.

[SNB05T]

is brocky overated? im a ford man through and through but seriously, wash your mouth out with battery acid son!!

compared to the clowns that race for tom wingeinshaw today brocky does rings around them at 100km/hr.

i used to watch brocky, dick and moffat at bathurst on tv as a kid and i don't think i ever say them swap paint or winge when the finished second instead of first (now that sounds familiar doesn't it greg murphy, you're an insult to all the kiwis in aus).

brocky raced in a ford sierra at bathurst for two (correct me if im wrong here) years i think.

i'll always bleed blue but brocky in my eye's was and will always be a true legend in australian motorsport.

[ehast13]

A privateer? Sort of. A harry firth car, lots of back door help from HDT. REad Harry Firth's comments on how 'privateer' brockies efforts were. It was the same in the 'team brock' toranas. Admittedly, he was great. But Bob Morris won it, John Goss won it etc as privateers. And they did it without factory assistance and the best bridgestone tyres and money. The Gown HIndaugh torana was not second rate.

Check out qualifying times for richo and brock in 88. Richo got the older car and didn't ge the new wing and gearbox package until months after brock go it. Brock reckoned the six speed and aero package update was worth a second a lap. I understand that brock was the crowd favourite and brought the MOBIL money and that may be why he got the best and left JImmy the rest.

NZ touring in the seventies were brilliant. Moffat went over and couldn't beat the best chargers in the business with the factory XY GTHO, so I wouldn't be so hasty as to criticize the NZ series of the early seventies.

Brock drove the 318i BMW in the earely 80's in sports sedans. He had a major crash and breathed in alot of burnt fibreglass. Gricey drove it too, Jimmy made it win. Interesting to note that Frank gardner did the set up in the BMW's.

Brock did well in 1985 bathurst. The first time in 15 years he didn't have the fastest vehicle (an exaggeration but you see my point). He showed a grit and determination that silenced many critics.

I am not a critic. I am a fan.

Now, for all those who can't read, have metacognitive difficulties or just love to completely avoid the actual argument.

PETER BROCK was brilliant.
His leagacy will never be matched.
He was a world class driver who would have succeeded nearly anywhere.

THe original post was simple - Was he the best the world has ever seen?

Perhaps this question may never be answered but I feel, that he had some inconsistencies and weaknesses that would preclude him from that title.

I think GEOGHAN was just as naturally gifted.
I think is Jimmy Richards is MR Versatile and was considered the fastest touring car driver in the world in the late eighties.
Gricey was fast but fragile.
Tom Walkinshaw was amazing at most aspects of racing.

I think Brock and Geoghan were the best aussie drivers. I think Jimmy (and so did MOTOR magazine and many others) was just as good and was stronger in some areas, therefore inching him ahead.

For two blokes of similar age who only competed against each other in equal (sort of equal, brockie actually had the lighter weight, six speed stuff) machinery as team mates once in 1988, I can only use the facts and figures available to come to this conclusion.

No one suggested that skaife didn't beat JImmy in 92? I don't know where you get the idea you need to correct me when I already said that. Take adeep breath and read again.

Jimmy was pretty quick in qualifying in 88. Usually quicker than brock and when he had his eye in he beat brock by big margins. Race pace was similar.

Jimmy was better in 93 than skaife. Skaife whomped (by then approaching 50 year old) Richo in 94.

Brock remained competitive in v8's until his retirement. Jim retired at the end of 95 after a dissapointing 94 and Yokahama's pathetic 95 season. Brock continued on with the best car and tyre combo till 97. By that stage skaife was faster than both Jimmy and Brock (age).

Each year, jimmy came back to bathurst and wowed other drivers by planting cars in the top ten on used tyres. In contrast, Brocky returned to HRT to drive with Jason plato and was over 4 seconds off the top ten.

I just try to look at when they had similar machinery and what Jimmy and Brock could do. Jimmy was usually better.

Volvo 850? A fast car that brock drove into the ground trying to keep up with BMWs and AUDI's. A year later with a tired race engine, Jimmy took it to the front.

I think Jimmy was a bit better. I think Brock was great. I am willing to be convinced otherwise. I have already changed some views, maybe you can debate usiing facts and logic rather than emotion and ignorance of the original thread.

I WILL APOLOGISE FOR THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. It should be "DO SOME EXAGGERATTE P.BROCKS ABILITIES"

[Rob's 76 Effy]

Thats a mighty big statement saying hes the best the world has seen, from not a fan but an admirer of his talent, no one has mentioned that he drove a ford sierra when he was polarised by his polariser LoL

[ehast13]

Those results from 88 seem to convince me. jimmy was consistently ahead. on the couple of occasions that brock finished ahead he was only just ahead.

used my sunday arvo to read old magazines and research

jimmy never did any testing in the 88 season except before bathurst.

i'm strengthening my position. I reckon Jimmy (in 88, in the BMW) was better.

[gtxb67]

when exactly did brock drive the bmw. i remembered after posting last time that gricey did in fact drive it in 1981 - understandable because he was part of the jps bmw team. the only records i have are of brock driving the monza in selected races in 1982 and 1983. i am interested to know when he drove the bm

either way i find it hard to believe that jim replaced brock in the bmw as jim was the jps bmw driver from 1982, so even if brock drove it previously, jim just took over the driving duties. it wasn't like brock was not good enough and had to be replaced. jim was part of the team that ran the car

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

when exactly did brock drive the bmw. i remembered after posting last time that gricey did in fact drive it in 1981 - understandable because he was part of the jps bmw team. the only records i have are of brock driving the monza in selected races in 1982 and 1983. i am interested to know when he drove the bm

either way i find it hard to believe that jim replaced brock in the bmw as jim was the jps bmw driver from 1982, so even if brock drove it previously, jim just took over the driving duties. it wasn't like brock was not good enough and had to be replaced. jim was part of the team that ran the car

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/bathurst_1988.htm

He drove a Mobil backed BMW with Crompton at Bathurst in 1988, Richards/Parsons drove the other team car.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/bathurst_1988.htm

He drove a Mobil backed BMW with Crompton at Bathurst in 1988, Richards/Parsons drove the other team car.

thanx, but it was suggested he drove the jps bmw sports sedan in the early eighties - i can only remember him driving the jane monza in the gt class

i remember the 88 race very well. brock ran through the sandtrap at skyline in front of me and what seemed like seconds later dick spun down conrod, allowing moff into the lead

and 100 laps from that, my world fell apart