Ethanol Fuel NOT What The Government Spin Drs Tell Us !!!

[mrbaxr6t]

OK - I own a turbo xr6 and I tried running it on e85 - the result was awful, the car ran very poorly, idle went all screwed up and power went down by heaps easily noticeable drop, at the same time it was drinking the fuel like it was going out of fashion. No it was not re-tuned for e85 I must say but it proves that if nothing else the cam and injection timings need to be altered to use it most effectively. I do not run ethanol blended fuel in my car as I have stated the car doesn't run good on it and it uses lots more of it, and in my area its only 10cpl cheaper at best, when you using 25/30% more that costs you more to run your car.

on the subject of governments pushing it (e85) lets say we find an easy way to adjust cars so they run good on it. We are all going to be using more litres to cover the same distance, last time I checked GST is charged per litre fuel purchased, not per km travellled. It becomes highly profitable having us using 80L/100kms over what we use now (around 18L/100 for a thirsty vehicle)

all this talk of saving the environment and reducing CO2 emissions is a steaming stinky pile of rancid <X> if this was the agenda Stanley Meyers' system would be available in the open arena for all auto manufacturers and the public at large to scrutinize, does it work?? thing is nobody knows as the man passed away, his car and his legacy has been suppressed as it will destroy revenue streams - we can't have this just ask them.

Also our fuel does not come from the Arabs, it comes from Singapore. So the money we pay for fuel does not go to the Arabs.

save the environment my backside.

[burnz]

dunno about stanley meyers, Eugene Mallove is more interesting

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

It also means that the Federal Government has less money for roads, hospitals, schools etc.

Not like we see any of it spent on our roads anyways, where I live they're horrible, every time it rains potholes keep appearing everywhere and then they get huge and all they do is circle them with chalk.

[XRCIST]

For outright performance E85 is the bomb!!! When properly tuned, especially on a vehicle with forced indution it will pi$$ all over 98. Guys in the states with Evos are now rebuilding their motors with 13.1 even 14.1 compression and still screwing 20+psi out of them to take advantage of the octane rating this fuel delivers. And yes like Daniel said, at compression figures like these the motor is much more efficient narrowing the fuel consumption gap between 98 and e85 further.

These threads are an excellent read from the skyline forums about tuning results with e85.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...5-t239271.html

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...&mode=threaded

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

OK - I own a turbo xr6 and I tried running it on e85 - the result was awful, the car ran very poorly, idle went all screwed up and power went down by heaps easily noticeable drop, at the same time it was drinking the fuel like it was going out of fashion. No it was not re-tuned for e85 I must say but it proves that if nothing else the cam and injection timings need to be altered to use it most effectively.

It wasn't tuned to run it. Of course the result would be terrible.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by phillyc

It wasn't tuned to run it. Of course the result would be terrible.

this is true but tell me this E85 is sold at the same place as all other fuels, nowhere at the point of purchase does it say "your car needs to be tuned for this" or "cars E85 compatible only" or something along those lines, this IMPLIES the product is a cheaper greener petrol alternative to any and all cars, which it is not - and on a side note the E85 got in my car in the first place because my wife picked up the wrong pump, if it said something on the bowser about the fuel not being compatible with all cars then she would not have put it in the car in the first place. It is marketed as a cheaper greener alternative to petrol nowhere does it say "not compatible with all cars" I re state. Settle down will you.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

this is true but tell me this E85 is sold at the same place as all other fuels, nowhere at the point of purchase does it say "your car needs to be tuned for this" or "cars E85 compatible only" or something along those lines, this IMPLIES the product is a cheaper greener petrol alternative to any and all cars, which it is not - and on a side note the E85 got in my car in the first place because my wife picked up the wrong pump, if it said something on the bowser about the fuel not being compatible with all cars then she would not have put it in the car in the first place. It is marketed as a cheaper greener alternative to petrol nowhere does it say "not compatible with all cars" I re state. Settle down will you.

I didn't see a sign saying that Diesel is "not compatible with all cars"... yet, most of know not to put it in an petrol car....

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

OK - I own a turbo xr6 and I tried running it on e85 - the result was awful, the car ran very poorly, idle went all screwed up and power went down by heaps easily noticeable drop, at the same time it was drinking the fuel like it was going out of fashion. No it was not re-tuned for e85 I must say but it proves that if nothing else the cam and injection timings need to be altered to use it most effectively. I do not run ethanol blended fuel in my car as I have stated the car doesn't run good on it and it uses lots more of it, and in my area its only 10cpl cheaper at best, when you using 25/30% more that costs you more to run your car.

on the subject of governments pushing it (e85) lets say we find an easy way to adjust cars so they run good on it. We are all going to be using more litres to cover the same distance, last time I checked GST is charged per litre fuel purchased, not per km travellled. It becomes highly profitable having us using 80L/100kms over what we use now (around 18L/100 for a thirsty vehicle)

all this talk of saving the environment and reducing CO2 emissions is a steaming stinky pile of rancid <X> if this was the agenda Stanley Meyers' system would be available in the open arena for all auto manufacturers and the public at large to scrutinize, does it work?? thing is nobody knows as the man passed away, his car and his legacy has been suppressed as it will destroy revenue streams - we can't have this just ask them.

Also our fuel does not come from the Arabs, it comes from Singapore. So the money we pay for fuel does not go to the Arabs.

save the environment my backside.

When I put my new cam in, I put 20L of Ultimate in my car. I gave it a start, and an idle, took it for a quick spin and then had it towed to where it was getting tuned.
In the 15 minutes of idling, and a not even 5km drive, the power was down to the point of being dangerous, I ran out of fuel (yes, 20L) fouled my car, plugs and oxy sensor.
All this becuase the car wasnt tuned for it. But I didnt blame the fuel I used.
Im not by any means having a go at you, just saying that it really isnt the E85's fault that your car isnt tuned for it.

[Qwik6]

For those who want to know.

E85 @ 2 sites in Adelaide now.
United @ Seaton, Tapleys Hill Rd
United @ Park Holme, Marion rd.

[gtfpv]

well i would've thought that it is illigal to allow the public to put e85 into a petrol tank without a sign explaining the compatability .
i could be wrong but i dont think you can fill a petrol car up with diesol due to the nozzle size it's impossible .
in any case there should be some idiot proof < cat 600 heres your chance to ridicule me again - setup so that cross fueling by mistake cant happen .

[Qwik6]

It is possible to fill a petrol car with diesel & vice versa.
See it all the time.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i would've thought that it is illigal to allow the public to put e85 into a petrol tank without a sign explaining the compatability .
.

Well, most people use common sense, every petrol flap has a sign to tell you what fuel to use.

[T3man]

Geez Louize , I knew there were some idiots about but I didn't expect them to be on a Ford forum - just goes to show not all bogans drive Holdens - at least a couple on here are in XR6Ts and FPVs. Sad really. It seems we have to have a sign for everything to make it idiot-proof. WARNING, do not put water in your fuel tank even though the tap is right there on the driveway and it is free.

CAT600> Thanks for your balanced, informed and accurate posts. Oh, and even a bit of humour thrown in.

[gtfpv]

FFS. I think we have more than a few twisted up frustrated whinges here who need to take a few chill pills too.
i dont need to comment on common sense this is just a farquing forum .
pretty sure i could show many people here a thing or 2 , as well as learn . judging on the net is effing disgracefull , and i see it here in just about every thread .
this is a forum . not a rubbishing pit .
i'm quickly starting to get over this place it's wrought with ridicule .

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well i would've thought that it is illigal to allow the public to put e85 into a petrol tank without a sign explaining the compatability .
i could be wrong but i dont think you can fill a petrol car up with diesol due to the nozzle size it's impossible .
in any case there should be some idiot proof < cat 600 heres your chance to ridicule me again - setup so that cross fueling by mistake cant happen .

It may not be the case now, but last year (this is before I ended up buying fuel direct from the producers in CSR and Manildra) the few servos I rang about E85 all said they were locked up so that the public could not walk in off the street and fill their car up. They said they required a document from the car manufacturer (Saab in the only case at the time) or a signed declaration in the case of a "tuner" type car consenting to the fuel.

mrbaXR6t, if you were fooled/duped into thinking it was a straight "swap" fuel then I feel for you, but even if the servo does not advertise the fuel as "application-specific", you still need to do your homework prior to ASSUMING that the fuel would be ok. The analogy of filling up a diesl car with petrol and vice-versa is a fair point and the only thing that is different is that peoples exposure/knowledge of Diesel is much greater than E85.

Daniel

[G6ET8U]

Just read this from start to finish and T3Man great post.

CAT600 excellent contribution too... as always.

My previous car was a Nizpro Stage 2 XR6 Turbo and I ran it on the (available at the time) 100RON Shell fuel (346rwkw). If it was available where I am now I would still be using it, even in my G6E Turbo. Yes it uses slightly more fuel but when tuned it is the absolute madman. I knew that 2 years ago when I had XR6T tuned... how this now cannot be common knowledge around performance circles is just BEYOND me. Some of the posts here are just funny.

I was using E10 in my G6 until 98 became cheaper (during the GFC) but have switched back now because the only difference I can physically see is it averages just over 1L per 100k's and it's 20c or so cheaper per Litre. Do the math, it doesn't add up. And my current car isn't even tuned for it. Get a tune and away you go.

And just for the record my Niz XR averaged under 12L per 100k's with an average speed less than 40kp/h.

It is the future. To say that it isn't is just falacy.

[woodsy109]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The places I have seen said they don't burn them now ??..

Thats correct. There is only a small amount of farmers that still burn. The reason they burn is because the fire burns the unwanted trash on the cane stalk. Most farmers now leave the trash in the field as a type of mulsh to help with water usage. The places that do burn use flood irrigation (burdekin area), or have naturally wet paddocks that they need to dry out to harvest (Far North). Even in these places though, most don't burn.

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

Does this also include the CO2 from the power stations that power the Ethanol plants?

The CSR plant at Sarina is a sugar mill with a ethanol plant tacked on the side. It is powered by a boiler which runs on bagasse (whats left of the cane stalk after crushing). The ethanol plant runs off the power the mill creates. I'm not too certain what it runs on while the mill is down, however i'm fairly sure due to increasing efficiency of the boilers, they can just about run all year on bagasse they stockpile during the crushing season. Some boilers can also use dual fuel, coal and bagasse.

Originally Posted by GavL

Thats what I was led to believe too - they don't need to burn the stuff to get the snakes, spiders etc out as its machine harvested rather than by hand.

Also ruins the quality of the sugar if it's burnt, from what I was told when visiting the buderim sugar factory.

Its true that the harvesters remove the trash however see above for the main reason. Burning doesn't really affect quality at all unless it is allowed to sit for too long before crushing (36-48hrs will see a small loss).

Originally Posted by xbgs351

A stupid argument in your case. It isn't like the potato farmers in Tasmania and Victoria can readily convert their potato farms into sugarcane plantations. :togo:

Not sure if you were aware but potatoes can and are being fermented for the production of ethanol.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by woodsy109

Not sure if you were aware but potatoes can and are being fermented for the production of ethanol.

Vodka.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Vodka.

I once suffered alcoholic poisoning, drinking moonshine spirit from pumpkins..Lol..

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by woodsy109

Thats correct. There is only a small amount of farmers that still burn. The reason they burn is because the fire burns the unwanted trash on the cane stalk. Most farmers now leave the trash in the field as a type of mulsh to help with water usage. The places that do burn use flood irrigation (burdekin area), or have naturally wet paddocks that they need to dry out to harvest (Far North). Even in these places though, most don't burn.



The CSR plant at Sarina is a sugar mill with a ethanol plant tacked on the side. It is powered by a boiler which runs on bagasse (whats left of the cane stalk after crushing). The ethanol plant runs off the power the mill creates. I'm not too certain what it runs on while the mill is down, however i'm fairly sure due to increasing efficiency of the boilers, they can just about run all year on bagasse they stockpile during the crushing season. Some boilers can also use dual fuel, coal and bagasse.



Its true that the harvesters remove the trash however see above for the main reason. Burning doesn't really affect quality at all unless it is allowed to sit for too long before crushing (36-48hrs will see a small loss).



Not sure if you were aware but potatoes can and are being fermented for the production of ethanol.

Great info. I wondered how the ethanol plants ran all year round even when produce was seasonal..... its awesome that they can run on stockpiled cane waste permanently.

Daniel

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by woodsy109

The CSR plant at Sarina is a sugar mill with a ethanol plant tacked on the side. It is powered by a boiler which runs on bagasse (whats left of the cane stalk after crushing). The ethanol plant runs off the power the mill creates. I'm not too certain what it runs on while the mill is down, however i'm fairly sure due to increasing efficiency of the boilers, they can just about run all year on bagasse they stockpile during the crushing season. Some boilers can also use dual fuel, coal and bagasse.

I see. So the entire CSR plant is powered by bagasse, dual fuel or coal, or only the ethanol plant tacked on the side?

[burnz]

bagasse, isn't that a disease??

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by CAT600

It may not be the case now, but last year (this is before I ended up buying fuel direct from the producers in CSR and Manildra) the few servos I rang about E85 all said they were locked up so that the public could not walk in off the street and fill their car up. They said they required a document from the car manufacturer (Saab in the only case at the time) or a signed declaration in the case of a "tuner" type car consenting to the fuel.

mrbaXR6t, if you were fooled/duped into thinking it was a straight "swap" fuel then I feel for you, but even if the servo does not advertise the fuel as "application-specific", you still need to do your homework prior to ASSUMING that the fuel would be ok. The analogy of filling up a diesl car with petrol and vice-versa is a fair point and the only thing that is different is that peoples exposure/knowledge of Diesel is much greater than E85.

Daniel

makes sense . thanks . clarafies things .

E-85 is a very new fuel to the public .
i wonder now where we we'll end up as far as general motering goes . up untill now you could put petrol of almost any type in most general petrol powered vehicles .
e-85 seems to stand on it's own . even from e-10 .
will e-85 remain a performance based fuel far over and above petrol , or will general vehicles start being manufactured to take such a fuel bringing another alternate into the equation .
example , lpg, deisel, premium petrol, standard petrol,e-85 where all these cannot be cross matched ???
interesting as i thought that ethonol based fuels would be an alternative by choice over petrol . as in the case with e-10 not a replacement ( which is where i lack an understanding ) but i can see performance vehicles now being produced with perhaps smaller engines for such a fuel - is this where e-85 is ultimately leading to?

[Franco Cozzo]

My car says its E10 compatible, will it be alright with E85 or is that a bit too strong for it? From the sounds of some on this forum about Ethanol, filling your car up with anything ethanol is the equivilent of Hitler coming back from the dead and killing another 6 million jews.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

My car says its E10 compatible, will it be alright with E85 or is that a bit too strong for it? From the sounds of some on this forum about Ethanol, filling your car up with anything ethanol is the equivilent of Hitler coming back from the dead and killing another 6 million jews.

...um...

[The Monty]

ROFL....
Seriously though, dont run E85 in it unless its been tuned for it, no E10 compatible car will be compatible with E85.

[CAT600]

The problem with E85 is in the quantity of fuel required to maintain equivalent Air Fuel ratios. Ethanol has a 9:1 Stoich (perfect burn) point. E85, with its 15% Gasoline content is 9.7:1, 100% Gasoline (no Ethanol) is 14.7:1

As you can see putting E85 into a car tuned for 100% Gasoline will see the engine running way too lean (equivalent of almost 20:1 at cruise and around 16:1 at max power) and will assimilate Hitler returning with some modern weaponary to kill every living valve, seat and piston in your engines existance.

E10 you can get away with, as the Wide open throttle on most cars is around 11.0-12.0:1 and will therefore still be at or under 13:1 at full throttle with just the 10% Ethanol content. Cruise will see over 15.5:1 but the cars narrowband O2 sensors will be able to trim for that back to 14.7.... so no problem.

Daniel

[castellan]

It was GM that sold the fuel formula to Hitler during the war.
MR Ford got in hounded for things happening before the filthy war. and all that he was trying to do was make cars affordable for every one.

[vztrt]

Bit of a thread mine, but I dont see a point in starting another thread on the subject.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/70035/et...ol-the-basics/

Ethanol Versus Petrol: The Basics
By John Cadogan | June 8th, 2010

There’s been a lot of controversy, but ethanol in petrol is here to stay. Holden will have E85-compatible engines here very soon in an attempt to get fuel companies to supply even higher ethanol blends than are currently available. Amid all the anti-ethanol hysteria and fuel-company hype, not very much has ever really been explained about the key differences between the two fuels.

NOT FOR EVERY CAR

Most cars can run E10 – a 10 per cent blend of ethanol in petrol. To check compatibility with your car, contact the manufacturer. Ethanol doesn’t destroy engines, but it can eat into the materials used in incompatible fuel systems (sealers and linings; that kind of thing) and the byproducts of that corrosion can block fuel injectors, which can be costly.

WHAT’S ETHANOL?

It’s a basic alcohol, the same stuff as in beer, wine and spirits. It can be made by fermentation of a variety of different energy-dense foods. In Australia, the majority of ethanol is produced from wheat. It can also be made from sugar and many other starchy crops – as well as from industrial, domestic and agricultural waste using chemically engineered microbes.

ENERGY

Petrol contains more energy than ethanol. If you burn one litre of ethanol you get 23.5 million joules of energy. If you burn one litre of petrol you get 33.5 million joules. That means there’s about 30 per cent less energy in a tank full of ethanol, compared with the same volume of petrol. And that means there’s about three per cent less energy in E10 compared with regular petrol. And that means fuel consumption goes up by three percent if you use E10. So if it’s not at least three per cent cheaper than regular petrol, you’re ripping yourself off. It also means if you ran a car on 100 per cent ethanol, fuel consumption would increase by more than 40 per cent. (Although it’s not advisable to do that. Car engines don’t like to start in the cold on E100. Which is why E85 is pretty much the upper limit for ethanol/petrol blends.) You need to burn 1.4 litres of ethanol to get the same energy as one litre of petrol. (Cruising range drops on E10, too – something long-distance drivers need to consider.)

GREENHOUSE

One litre of ethanol produces 1.5kg of CO2 when you burn it. One litre of petrol emits 2.2kg of CO2. But since 1.4 litres of ethanol and 1.0 litre of petrol contain the same amount of energy, maybe that’s a better CO2 yardstick comparison. And 1.4 litres of CO2 emits 2.15kg of CO2 – so, joule-for-joule, there’s not much in it from a greenhouse perspective.

HOW ENGINES WORK

The elephant in the room here is the engine itself – which is invariably optimised for petrol, not ethanol or ethanol blended fuel.

Engines don’t just burn fuel – they compress the air around it first. Compressing the fuel/air mix prior to combustion allows the expansion to occur over a greater range than just burning it out in the open, increasing the efficiency of the operation. More efficiency means more of the 33.5 million joules in every litre of petrol get converted into torque at the crankshaft. Less is lost out the exhaust pipe as waste heat.

So, the more the compression, the more the efficiency. Only there are physical limits to the amount of compression the fuel/air mix will tolerate before it begins to burn autonomously (think: pinging/knocking).

Octane rating is a measure of a fuel’s resistance to combustion (self-ignition or auto-ignition, and also knock/pinging) when compressed. So, higher-octane fuels resist auto-ignition better; they can be compressed more. So they can produce more torque and have greater efficiency. But if you run a high-octane fuel in an engine designed for low octane, there’s no benefit. This is essentially what you’re doing when you run an ethanol blend in a petrol engine.

A common misconception is that high-octane fuels have more energy in them. That’s crap. They allow greater compression, delivering more torque at the crank via increased thermodynamic efficiency.

Octane is a carbon chemical (eight carbon atoms and 18 hydrogens) which petrol approximates. The chemical with an octane rating of 100 (to which the 91, 95 and 98 fuels commonly onsale compare in percentage resistance to pinging terms) is an isomer of octane called 2-2-4 tri-methyl pentane, which is a specific architecture of eight carbons and 18 hydrogens. They all have the same amount of energy on offer in the various arrangements of the atoms, just the resistance to pinging (or knock) changes.

Ethanol offers a greater octane rating than petrol. So putting an ethanol blend in an engine designed for petrol means in theory it could handle more compression (produce more power and operate more efficiently). Only the compression ratio is set at the factory (it’s a function of piston sweep and combustion chamber shape, including piston crown shape). And that’s usually set for petrol.

This means ethanol blends won’t be as thermally efficient in most engines, compared with straight petrol. (Modern engines adapt slightly to higher octane fuels by increasing the spark advance, but the benefit is tiny compared to increasing the compression to suit the octane rating.) The only real way to solve this problem is to vary the compression, and the only real way to do that is via variable-boost turbocharging, where the effective compression ratio can be varied to suit the fuel’s octane rating by changing the pressure of the post-turbo inlet air mix.) E50 can tolerate something like 19:1 compression, with the right additional controls in place. Ordinary petrol likes 10.5:1 or thereabouts – slightly more with direct injection.

Subject to all these caveats the bottom line is that, broadly, to perform the same job as an equivalent volume of petrol, you’d need to burn about 40 per cent more pure ethanol, and it would emit the same (or very similar) amount of CO2. And if the blend of petrol and ethanol varies, hi-tech turbocharging will be required to exploit the fuel to the best effect.

[ebxr8240]

There's some greenhouse offset growing the suger cane etc
Plus as I have said many times..
The money STAYS HERE !!!
Many acres of grain are ruined by rains at the wrong time which can be
used for fuel...
Fuel companies as far as I'm concerned the more compitition they get the better!!!