Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

go drive a Focus XR5 before saying they are unpredictable thanks.
friend has a JCW mini and he says its predictable torque steers one way and pulls the other way under breaks EVERY TIME sounds predictable to me?

I agree, we have a Mini Cooper S with JCW engine tuning kit and find the same thing. Yes it has torque steer but it is predictable, it will pull to the right so you quickly learn to weight the wheel to the left a bit when you plant the throttle (especially when over boost comes in). We also get a gentle pull to the left under heavy brakes so you learn to weight the right side of the wheel. Very predictable and very easy to control, kind of adds to the driver involvement.

A good friend of mine has a VW Golf GTI with a APR tuning kit (heaps more grunt than the mini) but it has less torque steer than our Mini, he actually says he prefers playing in our Mini because it is more involving to drive.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I agree, we have a Mini Cooper S with JCW engine tuning kit and find the same thing. Yes it has torque steer but it is predictable, it will pull to the right so you quickly learn to weight the wheel to the left a bit when you plant the throttle (especially when over boost comes in). We also get a gentle pull to the left under heavy brakes so you learn to weight the right side of the wheel. Very predictable and very easy to control, kind of adds to the driver involvement.

A good friend of mine has a VW Golf GTI with a APR tuning kit (heaps more grunt than the mini) but it has less torque steer than our Mini, he actually says he prefers playing in our Mini because it is more involving to drive.

Yes, those with the RWD blinkers on can't appreciate good cars no matter what they are.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, those with the RWD blinkers on can't appreciate good cars no matter what they are.

Yep, we all know that FWD is the product of the devil and makes baby Jesus cry :

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Or at least handle a little more predictably.

How does a XR5T or a similar specced FWD handle unpredictably? Examples from your own examples please.

[388cube_edxr8]

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

Understeer and power oversteer are both situations that hit a RWD. Similarly lift-off oversteer occurs in RWD too, particularly in cars that have a higher weight bias to the rear, with spectacular results in rear engine cars such porsche.

A rear wheel drive car, particularly one with a LSD, when planted and breaks traction, will pull one way or the other. Normally they will slip to the side that is "down hill" according to road camber (you guess which way). At least torque steer is always the same way.

My point is both have characteristics and neither is more predictable than the other. It is about learning to drive your car according to its characteristics, not some crazy idea of which is better or what it should be doing.

As a side note, in the upper ranges of performance driving, I find our Mini Cooper S a lot more predictable and less likely to turn around and bite my head off than the Super Pursuit.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

+1 torque steer may make it predictable but it means your at the limit of adhesion, whereas a good driver becomes better when he knows how his RWD will react.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

+1 torque steer may make it predictable but it means your at the limit of adhesion, whereas a good driver becomes better when he knows how his RWD will react.

You need to drive a modern, high performance FWD (one that comes with decent tyres) such as the Golf GTI, Mini Cooper S etc. By torque steer we are not talking wrist snapping, lane jumping torque steer. It is now more like a gentle tug that is easily controlled. How many high performance FWD's have you driven, that are less than 5 years old?

So a RWD with tyres spinning is not at the "limit of adhesion"? A FWD driver can not learn how his car reacts, and become a better driver in the process?

Actually, a FWD that is displaying torque steer on acceleration is also showing it has adhesion, as adhesion is required at the front wheels for torque steer to occur. Once adhesion is exceeded, you get wheel spin.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

You need to drive a modern, high performance FWD (one that comes with decent tyres) such as the Golf GTI, Mini Cooper S etc. By torque steer we are not talking wrist snapping, lane jumping torque steer. It is now more like a gentle tug that is easily controlled. How many high performance FWD's have you driven, that are less than 5 years old?

So a RWD with tyres spinning is not at the "limit of adhesion"? A FWD driver can not learn how his car reacts, and become a better driver in the process?

I have an sp23 ( which I believe has the Focus chassis) and it handles pretty darn good so I know what a modern day car drives like, and yes I still prefer to drive my old Falcon ute ( mate of mine has a BMW and was quite surprised how well an old Falcon can go in the wet)as I can pump through some corners if I wanted to.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I have an sp23 ( which I believe has the Focus chassis) and it handles pretty darn good so I know what a modern day car drives like, and yes I still prefer to drive my old Falcon ute ( mate of mine has a BMW and was quite surprised how well an old Falcon can go in the wet)as I can pump through some corners if I wanted to.

I had a SP23 and yes they are good but I am sorry, they are not in the same class. Not sure what experience you are basing your previous comment on. By this I mean, in one post you slam FWD handling , but in your next you comment that your FWD handles "pretty darn good".

[whynot]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Lift off understeer, power understeer, lift off oversteer, pulling left/right under wheelspin, need I go on?

At least with a RWD its easier to guess what its going to do next.

These test results are getting a bit dated, but interesting nevertheless

http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2...8-results-6328

While my favourite vehicle is still the Territory and my daily driver is a G6E, I love taking the wife’s Mazda 3 out for a spin. Purely for the sheer driving pleasure it gives.

[Dave_au]

Three points:

1) More people will lose control in a RWD experiencing oversteer than in a FWD experiencing understeer, period.

2) More people will buy small and medium FWD cars from now on. Large, rear wheel drive Australian cars will never recover to the levels of sales that they experienced in the 1980s and 1990s.

3) RWD, largely driven by marketing, will become an exclusive feature of premium brands. The Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore will never be accepted in this prestigious league and are doomed for eventual failure, not because they are flawed, but because they are, or will never be accepted by the public as a creditable competitor to BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus. Unless your willing to pay the premium, you will be driving an AWD or a FWD within the next 2 decades.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Three points:

1) More people will lose control in a RWD experiencing oversteer than in a FWD experiencing understeer, period.

2) More people will buy small and medium FWD cars from now on. Large, rear wheel drive Australian cars will never recover to the levels of sales that they experienced in the 1980s and 1990s.

3) RWD, largely driven by marketing, will become an exclusive feature of premium brands. The Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore will never be accepted in this prestigious league and are doomed for eventual failure, not because they are flawed, but because they are, or will never be accepted by the public as a creditable competitor to BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus. Unless your willing to pay the premium, you will be driving an AWD or a FWD within the next 2 decades.

All that will make baby Jesus inconsolable!

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

All that will make baby Jesus inconsolable!

Well baby Jesus drives a prius (fwd) or a hummer (4wd). Either or, there's no RWD involved!

[geckoGT]

Of these, only one has the cabin restrictions of seating 4, FWD wins in small cars with cabin requirements for reasonable seating capacity.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Of these, only one has the cabin restrictions of seating 4, FWD wins in small cars with cabin requirements for reasonable seating capacity.

My point being that RX7 and RX8 and MX5 are serious track cars if you really are interested in going to meets, and the RX8 can accommodate 4 people and uses no turbo or charger, albeit that the wheel base is slightly longer than the mini.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...nce-drive-day/
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...e-drive-day/6/

[flappist]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

My point being that RX7 and RX8 and MX5 are serious track cars if you really are interested in going to meets, and the RX8 can accommodate 4 people and uses no turbo or charger, albeit that the wheel base is slightly longer than the mini.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...nce-drive-day/
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3766/maz...e-drive-day/6/

RX7 & RX8 are serious track cars PROVIDED it is a very short race with lots of corners and no straights.

Power of a 4 cylinder with the fuel economy of a badly tuned V8. (and yes I have owned one and driven both)

[SumoDog68]

In tarmac rallying fastest cars are FWD than AWD and noone uses RWD. Enough said.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

In tarmac rallying fastest cars are FWD than AWD and noone uses RWD. Enough said.

Huh? Targa Tasmania is australias premier Tarmac rally and without looking at the results over the years(I'm on my phone the browser sucks) I'll bet that it's almost never been won by a fwd. It's almost always awd then rwd you can guess the last one


Here's some targa results
http://www.targa.org.au/Results/2009.html

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by flappist

RX7 & RX8 are serious track cars PROVIDED it is a very short race with lots of corners and no straights.

Power of a 4 cylinder with the fuel economy of a badly tuned V8. (and yes I have owned one and driven both)

Power of a 4 cylinder is a bit of an under statement, my old sII rx7 used to get up 9.9litres per 100ks and was as quick as most v8,s for the day.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Power of a 4 cylinder is a bit of an under statement, my old sII rx7 used to get up 9.9litres per 100ks and was as quick as most v8,s for the day.

Must have had a bloody small tank, I used to get about 400km per tank out of my series 2 RX7 back in the 80s, worse when I fitted the 13B to it.
It was quite slippery and almost completely radar invisible (which is why I bought it) but in straightline acceleration it was not even close to V8 falcons, monaros or commodores.

I was given a RX8 for a weekend by the local Mazda guy to see if I wanted to buy one. Incredibly underpowered and used more fuel than my F6 at the time.

Although, in that your login is the most powerful rotary engine mazda make, I suspect you are probably a rotorhead and therefore tend to view them with rose coloured glasses.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Power of a 4 cylinder is a bit of an under statement, my old sII rx7 used to get up 9.9litres per 100ks and was as quick as most v8,s for the day.

Even with a 13B peripheral port engine Alan Moffatt's Group C RX7
couldn't beat Brocky's 400 hp 5.0 V8 Commodore.

Enough said..

[Brazen]

Front wheel drive has its uses, many members on one side of the family who basically live on unsealed roads drive Avalons, Magnas, a 380 and an Aurion.

Actually one of the first FWDs was the Citreon Traction Avant, marketed for its superior traction on rural roads due to front wheel drive.

On muddy or dirt roads front wheel drive is fantastic as you are steering the wheels which are putting the power down. You steer the wheel and bite into the corners, dragging the car out of the mud.

Also much harder to get bogged, because if you get stuck you steer the wheels side to side until it bites.

In the FWD/RWD debate the traction benefits of FWD are often overlooked and in many snowy icy parts of the world FWD is used as a selling point.

[388cube_edxr8]

Whilst I agree with most of what you have said Cosmo, I can't support your claims of rotary awesomeness with a good conscience.

The fact is, rotaries work about as well as the batteries in a Prius. Good in theory, but barely if at all in the real world.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Whilst I agree with most of what you have said Cosmo, I can't support your claims of rotary awesomeness with a good conscience.

The fact is, rotaries work about as well as the batteries in a Prius. Good in theory, but barely if at all in the real world.

Where was a rotary compared to a Prius? I must not understand what your getting at. At least the Rotary engines themselves won't corrupt the soil for eons to come.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Where was a rotary compared to a Prius? I must not understand what your getting at. At least the Rotary engines themselves won't corrupt the soil for eons to come.

What I mean is not that they are a scam like the Prius batteries, but they work far better in theory than in reality (like the batteries).

If you understand how rotaries work (as I suspect you do), you will know that the concept itself is very clever. In reality, there are all sorts of problems with the design, not least of which is the apex seals.

Maybe sometime in the future, after Mazda has invested some more money into the design and we have some materials that do not yet exist, rotaries will be a viable alternative to the piston engine. Until then, they are different for the sake of being different and are nowhere near as practical in the real world as their piston counterparts.

Having such a tiny engine produce 300-400hp is no doubt very cool, but a V8 or Turbo 6 with the same power is much more streetable and reliable, whilst weighing approximately the same if it's well designed.

I do get the rotorhead point of view, but right now the piston engine is the lesser of two evils, from an engineering standpoint. But I'm working on a third option :

Nutty Professor out.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

What I mean is not that they are a scam like the Prius batteries, but they work far better in theory than in reality (like the batteries).

If you understand how rotaries work (as I suspect you do), you will know that the concept itself is very clever. In reality, there are all sorts of problems with the design, not least of which is the apex seals.

Maybe sometime in the future, after Mazda has invested some more money into the design and we have some materials that do not yet exist, rotaries will be a viable alternative to the piston engine. Until then, they are different for the sake of being different and are nowhere near as practical in the real world as their piston counterparts.

Having such a tiny engine produce 300-400hp is no doubt very cool, but a V8 or Turbo 6 with the same power is much more streetable and reliable, whilst weighing approximately the same if it's well designed.

I do get the rotorhead point of view, but right now the piston engine is the lesser of two evils, from an engineering standpoint. But I'm working on a third option :

Nutty Professor out.

Seal problem was early in the rotary era, after the first rx7 mazda went to a steel two piece seal which in it's current form works fine to a point, boost pressures with high revving makes the seals bounce up and down till it shatters, the latest technology is an after market seal sold and made by a Australian shop, and these seals will not break even to the point that if you purposely try to break them they will only distort so very little damage is ever done, and Mazda went a step further when they made the RX8 Renesis motor as it is a side port motor and the problem of the seals breaking into the exhaust is near impossible, that is why Mazda is now looking into the Hydrogen engine technology as these new motors suit them fine.
As for the power to weight thing the rotary weights are very light compared to a six or eight, then put it in a car that weighs a minimum of 1275 ( I think that is what an RX8 is) gives you a very potential street car.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

Seal problem was early in the rotary era, after the first rx7 mazda went to a steel two piece seal which in it's current form works fine to a point, boost pressures with high revving makes the seals bounce up and down till it shatters, the latest technology is an after market seal sold and made by a Australian shop, and these seals will not break even to the point that if you purposely try to break them they will only distort so very little damage is ever done, and Mazda went a step further when they made the RX8 Renesis motor as it is a side port motor and the problem of the seals breaking into the exhaust is near impossible, that is why Mazda is now looking into the Hydrogen engine technology as these new motors suit them fine.
As for the power to weight thing the rotary weights are very light compared to a six or eight, then put it in a car that weighs a minimum of 1275 ( I think that is what an RX8 is) gives you a very potential street car.

Yeh no rose colored glasses there.

Kerb weight: 1379 or 1402 depending on model
Power:170 kw @ 90 bazillion RPM
Torque: 211Nm (less than a Hyundai Sonata)

http://www.mazda.com.au/Models/Curre...fications.aspx

0-400 in about 15 seconds.

Have you actually driven one? I have and they are gutless.

Sprouting specs of modded vehicles is just silly. Factory XR6Ts do not do 10 second quarters or over 300km/h but modded ones have.

[388cube_edxr8]

The RX8 has clever doors, that's about it.

Sorry mate.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

The RX8 has clever doors, that's about it.

Sorry mate.

Everyone is entitled to there own choices, If you were on a Holden Forum they probably not be interested in what cars you like either, but there does seem to be a case of small piston syndrome on this forum at the moment.