Towing a Caravan - Mechanical strain etc

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

You want to drive a Passat AND tow a Caravan. I'm starting to see a pattern...

Ha.....the Passat is a pretty brilliant quick car I want to keep.

Was given a bumsteer by the seller with regard to towing but my fault for not checking!

[whitelion65]

After this thread, I decided I'd better check out my Mondeo.
I have the diesel with the heavy duty (1,600kg) towbar.
The figures I got from the web were many and varied. A quick check of the owners manual put my mind to rest; 1,600kg tow capacity (braked) with 160kg nose load, but consideration to be given to total rear axle load.
Now normally, I would tow around the 750kg (unbraked) load, but the manual says to use load levellers with the HD tow setup. This sets up an interesting dilemma; at what point do you "have" to use load levellers?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

. This sets up an interesting dilemma; at what point do you "have" to use load levellers?

I don't have my territory book handy so not sure if it says anything in there but it also has two tow bar specs. Standard and HD. Standard goes up to 1600kg, and HD up to 2300 (2700 for awd diesel). It does mention not to use load levellers with the std bar so one would assume you could tow up to that weight on the HD bar without them...

Having said that, they are more about ball weight than overall weight and trailers come in all different shapes and sizes so they can't really put an actual figure on it. Some trailers, like some horse floats have less weight up front while trailers like hard floor camper trailers have substantial ball weight due to the axle being rather rearward.

I'd say it would be based on how much your vehicle drops once the trailer is hooked up that determines whether or not you need to use them.

I'll check my manual once I get home and see what that says.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

I don't have my territory book handy so not sure if it says anything in there but it also has two tow bar specs. Standard and HD. Standard goes up to 1600kg, and HD up to 2300 (2700 for awd diesel). It does mention not to use load levellers with the std bar so one would assume you could tow up to that weight on the HD bar without them...

Having said that, they are more about ball weight than overall weight and trailers come in all different shapes and sizes so they can't really put an actual figure on it. Some trailers, like some horse floats have less weight up front while trailers like hard floor camper trailers have substantial ball weight due to the axle being rather rearward.

I'd say it would be based on how much your vehicle drops once the trailer is hooked up that determines whether or not you need to use them.

I'll check my manual once I get home and see what that says.

Most likely reason why standard tow bar prohibits the use of WDH is that some standard tow bars use bolt on tongues where the bolts could snap under pressure, this applied to me when I had my FG xr ute fitted with 1600kg tow bar where I had to put a heavy duty bar (2300kg with box hitch) on to use a WDH.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

After this thread, I decided I'd better check out my Mondeo.
I have the diesel with the heavy duty (1,600kg) towbar.
The figures I got from the web were many and varied. A quick check of the owners manual put my mind to rest; 1,600kg tow capacity (braked) with 160kg nose load, but consideration to be given to total rear axle load.
Now normally, I would tow around the 750kg (unbraked) load, but the manual says to use load levellers with the HD tow setup. This sets up an interesting dilemma; at what point do you "have" to use load levellers?

WDH should be used only when your trailer/van effects your steering & braking by throwing your weight back on the front axle/s, after all this is the primary purpose of WDH.

PS: Yes it does help the sag but you should really upgrade the suspension for sag issues.

[Tassie f100]

Prydey.The reason different trailers have different axle configurations is so that when loaded the weight distribution is correct.A caravan is set up in the factory with very close to even weights front and rear,wheras a horse float has the wheels quite a bit towards the rear because when loaded with horse(s)the bulk of the weight is near the centre and rear of the float because of where the legs are fitted to the animal.Likewise boat trailers because of the weight of the outboard or engine and drive have the axles closer to the rear.As another poster said yacht trailers have the axles near the middle because there isn’t any real weight difference between front and rear

[MercuryT]

Looking at this one.

Passat should be fine!

[aussiblue]

John Cadogan's YouTube Auto Expert from today is very relevant and is actually one of his more watchable videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uj5b4lWyXM

[Pis-ton broke]

interesting video about load distribution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-hUX8memY

[XR Martin]

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have, and instead should just be using random people's opinion on what a car should be able to handle.

End of the day you're still going to tow beyond what the car was designed for, and are just trying to find people to agree with you to justify your decision.

I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies, over someone's gut instinct. And If anything their engineers push the boundaries more than others.

If it was a Toyota you could probably say it was too conservative, but VW...

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have, and instead should just be using random people's opinion on what a car should be able to handle.

End of the day you're still going to tow beyond what the car was designed for, and are just trying to find people to agree with you to justify your decision.

I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies, over someone's gut instinct. And If anything their engineers push the boundaries more than others.

What are you on about?

I said I wasn't buying the caravan due to the advice provided.

Simply saying it was frustrating.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have,
I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies,

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

[fnp]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

Nah, VW explained that in court.


It was just one bloke, with a screwdriver, who put that code into thousands of cars without anyone else noticing... the rest of VW had no idea.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

More than some bloke selling caravans for a living, or some random on the internet...

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

interesting video about load distribution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-hUX8memY

So yes, clearly if you have a super-lightweight trailer, and have the need to carry a couple of huge ~1T steel discs, don't load them at the back of the trailer.
So glad they had their model to show that.

Tune in for next week's episode, where they will again use their model, to demonstrate that towing a trailer with only one wheel is sometimes not a good idea.

[.:4:.]

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

Do you understand the dynamics around the loads imposed on the tow ball? Static weight is one thing. Dynamic forces is something else entirely.

There will be a reason why the engineers limit ball weight to 90kg. It has nothing to do with the braked tow capacity.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

Do you understand the dynamics around the loads imposed on the tow ball? Static weight is one thing. Dynamic forces is something else entirely.

There will be a reason why the engineers limit ball weight to 90kg. It has nothing to do with the braked tow capacity.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

Those forces are at play, regardless of how you drive.

Perhaps nothing happens this time. Maybe not next time. Maybe not for the next 10 times but it will eventually catch up.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

Those forces are at play, regardless of how you drive.

Perhaps nothing happens this time. Maybe not next time. Maybe not for the next 10 times but it will eventually catch up.

If you can catch trailer sway, you're doing alright.

[dunga]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

Tell that to the bloke towing a overweight caravan with a Prado recently that crashed and killed some family members and is now facing jail time why would you even bother to tow with a vehicle that is unsuitable buy something suitable.
Driving responsibly is not just about driving .

[Pis-ton broke]

i,m guessing that the reason for the crazy ball weight numbers PARTLY is because there are many people don,t know how to tow , which means; what car and trailer combination, how to drive the rig and how to load stuff. low ball weight is quiet restrictive ,imo.
but a lot of it is common sense.
check out australia dash cam and you,ll see some examples.

[fiestaz]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

This is absolutely terrible advice. It’s not just power at play, it’s axles, tyres, rims, shocks, springs, gearbox, the list goes on.

Overload and something happens? Not only are you liable criminally, but your insurance won’t be paying.

[Tassie f100]

Bet you will find a lot more crashes caused by low ball weight rather than too much.Over 50+ years of trailer towing car trailers,the only times there were swaying problems were when there wasn’t enough ball weight.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Bet you will find a lot more crashes caused by low ball weight rather than too much.Over 50+ years of trailer towing car trailers,the only times there were swaying problems were when there wasn’t enough ball weight.

Correct. This is why its bad advice to rearrange the payload to reduce the ball weight on a trailer not designed to have a light ball weight.

Sway is caused by the trailer bossing the car. Often this is due to the weight of the trailer, but also, like you mention, if there isn't enough weight on the ball, the trailer can take weight off the rear axle of the car. The last thing you want when towing a trailer is to have less weight on the driving wheels.

This is also a problem when people over tension WDH. They don't understand the relationship between mass and tyres and tyre pressures etc If you increase the 'mass' over the rear, but then overtension the WDH so that 'weight' is moved back to the front, the tyres lose the ability to hang on to the road when lateral forces are at play.

anyway, thats a very simple overview and getting a bit off topic.

[Chapter Four]

Tow ball weight affects stability at speed.
In most european countries there are restriction on how fast you can go when towing (80-100kmh), so 5% or less is actually OK and studies have show this.
In the US and most of Australia, you can tow at the speed limit if you choose to.
Studies have show that trailers with a 3% ball weight are stable to 76 km/h, 5% to 110km/h, 10% to 130km/h and 15% to 160Km/h.
There is a big jump between 3% and 5% which is why the Euros opt for 5%. It has shown to be safe for the speed you are allowed to do.
If you are trying to rebalance the ball load, don't put a heap of weight behind the axle, that will make things worse if it does develop sway, even with 5% or more. Put the weight over the axle, but no further. If you can't rebalance safely and get to your specified max ball load, then that van is not for you.
As I've said, I tow a 2T trailer with 110kg on the ball. The car and trailer are loaded so that I am withing the GCM, ATM, GVM and axle limits. I've had the rig over weighbridges to check everything several times.
If you set it up properly you can safely tow 2T with 5% on the ball, just don't expect you can do 110km/h just because the speed limit says you can. (the cars handbook says you can't anyway)

[Fed]

1400 Kgs with 90 Kgs on the ball is legal & safe, you should name & shame the dealer who insisted on the 10% rubbish.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Fed

1400 Kgs with 90 Kgs on the ball is legal & safe, you should name & shame the dealer who insisted on the 10% rubbish.

Not entirely true. If the trailer has a ball weight above 90 when its empty, its quite dangerous to load the trailer in such a way as to decrease the ball weight. That means everything behind the axle. Not a good idea.

If the trailer has a ball weight of 90 or less when empty, then you could possible load it with all the extra weight centred over the axle and possibly not add too much more weight to the ball.

[Fed]

Originally Posted by prydey

Not entirely true. If the trailer has a ball weight above 90 when its empty, its quite dangerous to load the trailer in such a way as to decrease the ball weight. That means everything behind the axle. Not a good idea.

If the trailer has a ball weight of 90 or less when empty, then you could possible load it with all the extra weight centred over the axle and possibly not add too much more weight to the ball.

Well it's definitely legal so that only leaves safety.
I don't know why you would consider it dangerous to load the back of the trailer to bring the ball weight down to the car specs.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Fed

Well it's definitely legal so that only leaves safety.
I don't know why you would consider it dangerous to load the back of the trailer to bring the ball weight down to the car specs.

Because studies have shown that even at 5% ball loading with weight placed at the very rear to achieve that loading, that once the sway starts, it's hard to stop. Think pendulum.
The weight needs to be central, over the axles.