Psychos in the Auto-Repair Business

[Falcon SXR8]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Don't be "sorry" for your opinion, you can think its a load of rubbish, you are allowed to do that on a forum!
But 90 bucks an hour is $4500 a week or $215,000 per year, that's 48 working weeks at 10 hours a day!. Sure you get 4 weeks unpaid annual leave, so what, after taxes and costs/materials paid for by the customer, but with your added "handling fee" and mark up %, you're living big, not a bad earner, is it!,



Cheers King Billy

Not many tradies work 10 hours a day non stop thats why i dont understand your calculations. And who is happy working for $100 an hour with an outlay of 1mil in equipment and have professional's running it as in your example?

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Boy or Girl...???

Boy. Last of 5, hes got an older bro and 3 big sisters

[Crazy Dazz]

When I worked in Professional Practice, there was a very simple rule. You could be paid as much as you want, provided you could charge out at 4 times that rate. For the "Big" firms it was more like 5 or 6.
And God forbid you should ever need a lawyer.

I've got no problem with honest charging, but what I hate is gouging, laziness, and incompetence.

I no-longer work in PP, because I got sick of dealing with the clients. Same Applies. If you don't want to provide Customer Service, don't get a job where its a large part of the role.

If you are going to charge for your expertise, then you need to have it.
It just beggars belief that I can have a contractor quote on a multi-million dollar project, to the dollar, but a workshop can't quote me on a job.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Not many tradies work 10 hours a day non stop thats why i dont understand your calculations. And who is happy working for $100 an hour with an outlay of 1mil in equipment and have professional's running it as in your example?

What's hard to understand?..5 x 10hr days= 50hrs x $90 = $4,500 a week!
Multiply that by 48 weeks, taking 4 weeks annual holidays is $215 grand a year gross.
My garbo gets a week what a plumber earns in a day!
He is just as important as anyone else, just for health reasons, he gets $45 grand a year.

As for bigger businesses charging $100 an hour when they outlay just on machinery a million dollars, they run it let's say 12 hrs a day x 5 days a week so 4 pieces of machinery daily is $4,800 per day income x 5 days is $24,000 per week, x 52 weeks = $1,248,000.

So no one is working for $100 an hour, the machinery x4 is making the company $400 per hour, so 4 plumbers are making $360 per hr?
What plumber on an ABN a sole trader not a limited company outlays $300,000 to set himself up?...none of them, they can turn up in a family car and load all they need in the boot.

I know my business, and I know how to quote, my profit margins, my costs and how to work it all out, and no tradesman with a toolbox and ladder, maybe a small brazing torch ain't worth $90 an hour, fullstop!


Cheers King Billy

[PG2]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

What's hard to understand?..5 x 10hr days= 50hrs x $90 = $4,500 a week!
Multiply that by 48 weeks, taking 4 weeks annual holidays is $215 grand a year gross.
My garbo gets a week what a plumber earns in a day!
He is just as important as anyone else, just for health reasons, he gets $45 grand a year.

...

Cheers King Billy

Billy

While I will admit that I have never worked in a trade (I have the hands to prove it) your calculations may be a little off.

I think you may be getting the 'labour rate' and 'wage' confused.

Out of that labour rate other costs come into it. Sure, as you said, they can turn up in the family car with a couple of tools but there is still a cost to that.

There are other 'labour' costs that need to be taken into consideration such as;

* superannuation
* sick leave and workers comp
* administration time
* warranty (yep, sometimes things go wrong that you need to fix - even if they aren't exactly your fault)
* training
* insurance
* renewal of tools - that family car and blow torch will not last forever.

I am sure that there are other things, but as I said, they may gross $215,000 a year but they don't get paid that.

A garbage person may 'only' get paid $45,000 a year but they get sick leave, workers comp and superannuation on top of that.

[Falcon SXR8]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

What's hard to understand?..5 x 10hr days= 50hrs x $90 = $4,500 a week!
Multiply that by 48 weeks, taking 4 weeks annual holidays is $215 grand a year gross.

Cheers King Billy

What tradie works 10 hours a day for 48 weeks straight? Your story seems totally unrealistic to me.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

When I worked in Professional Practice, there was a very simple rule. You could be paid as much as you want, provided you could charge out at 4 times that rate. For the "Big" firms it was more like 5 or 6.
And God forbid you should ever need a lawyer.

I've got no problem with honest charging, but what I hate is gouging, laziness, and incompetence.

I no-longer work in PP, because I got sick of dealing with the clients. Same Applies. If you don't want to provide Customer Service, don't get a job where its a large part of the role.

If you are going to charge for your expertise, then you need to have it.
It just beggars belief that I can have a contractor quote on a multi-million dollar project, to the dollar, but a workshop can't quote me on a job.

There is a very real hesitancy in the automotive aftermarket to provide quotes/estimates for anything or even do emails or anything on paper, the industry operates on phone calls, **** half the time you're flat out getting an invoice for what you've just paid for.

It really ****s me, everyone insists on phone calls to do everything also.

As you can imagine its pretty inconvenient trying to organise work because I'm at work when you want me to call you and then when I'm not at work and available to talk to you on the phone, you aren't at work!

I'm with you there, I'm over laziness and incompetence.

Originally Posted by PG2

Billy

While I will admit that I have never worked in a trade (I have the hands to prove it) your calculations may be a little off.

I think you may be getting the 'labour rate' and 'wage' confused.

Out of that labour rate other costs come into it. Sure, as you said, they can turn up in the family car with a couple of tools but there is still a cost to that.

There are other 'labour' costs that need to be taken into consideration such as;

* superannuation
* sick leave and workers comp
* administration time
* warranty (yep, sometimes things go wrong that you need to fix - even if they aren't exactly your fault)
* training
* insurance
* renewal of tools - that family car and blow torch will not last forever.

I am sure that there are other things, but as I said, they may gross $215,000 a year but they don't get paid that.

A garbage person may 'only' get paid $45,000 a year but they get sick leave, workers comp and superannuation on top of that.

Insurance was nasty for me, I was under 25 and only had $500,000 worth of cover for vehicles inside my workshop and up to $125,000 for me to drive a customers vehicle.

Wasn't uncommon to have an excavator or someones prime mover in there, that's $400,000 right there for the excavator, only leaves $100,000 for everything else in there

It was about $8000 just for that cover which is a fair amount of money for a small two man business to cough up.

For a PTY LTD company structure you also have to actually pay yourself proper wages + super, annual leave, sick leave entitlements, add in work cover premiums etc and then being a high risk industry the premiums in VIC work on how many accidents your industry as a whole has so you might not do anything wrong but you'll cop it in premiums if the industry does poorly as a whole.

If you're just a partnership rather than a company structure you forgo the above but then if you don't pay the bills they'll take your house if you have assets for the taking

To put it into perspective a full time driver to do deliveries for you on the books costs around $85K/year by the time you take into account wages, super, sick leave, running costs of their car, average use of tolls etc.

The driver doesn't get anywhere close to that $85K in wages

Its one of those industries where everyone used to have in house drivers on the books around the start of last decade then by the end of it everyone had their own ABN, their own car, paying for their own fuel and maintenance and was getting shafted working for these contracting mobs outsourcing to the places who used to have their own drivers on the books.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

What tradie works 10 hours a day for 48 weeks straight? Your story seems totally unrealistic to me.

I did, only 6 days a week, 48 weeks a year, every year, my working out was on a easy 5 day week 10 hrs a day, every PAYE worker works a standard 38 or 40 hr week, mine was different, FIFO 6 months on 6 x 10 hr days and 2 weeks annual holidays.

I have time so I will spend a couple of days costing a bit of work, the only thing changed is wages since I last worked, that was 2005, the costings and rates are up but time wise is same or similar.

And I will reiterate, no tradie with a toolbox is worth $90 an hour!. that's a disgrace, unless you have no conscience!


Cheers King Billy

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

What's hard to understand?..5 x 10hr days= 50hrs x $90 = $4,500 a week!
Multiply that by 48 weeks, taking 4 weeks annual holidays is $215 grand a year gross.
My garbo gets a week what a plumber earns in a day!
He is just as important as anyone else, just for health reasons, he gets $45 grand a year.

As for bigger businesses charging $100 an hour when they outlay just on machinery a million dollars, they run it let's say 12 hrs a day x 5 days a week so 4 pieces of machinery daily is $4,800 per day income x 5 days is $24,000 per week, x 52 weeks = $1,248,000.

So no one is working for $100 an hour, the machinery x4 is making the company $400 per hour, so 4 plumbers are making $360 per hr?
What plumber on an ABN a sole trader not a limited company outlays $300,000 to set himself up?...none of them, they can turn up in a family car and load all they need in the boot.

I know my business, and I know how to quote, my profit margins, my costs and how to work it all out, and no tradesman with a toolbox and ladder, maybe a small brazing torch ain't worth $90 an hour, fullstop!


Cheers King Billy

I've always held the belief that if someone asks you to provide a quote for a service and you accept that quote, then the rate per hour shouldn't be a factor (regardless of the car they drive or the tools they own).

So long as you are happy and satisfied with the work that was provided at the price quoted (that you accepted), then happy days...

Just my 2c (per hour )

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by PG2

Billy

While I will admit that I have never worked in a trade (I have the hands to prove it) your calculations may be a little off.

I think you may be getting the 'labour rate' and 'wage' confused.

Out of that labour rate other costs come into it. Sure, as you said, they can turn up in the family car with a couple of tools but there is still a cost to that.

There are other 'labour' costs that need to be taken into consideration such as;

* superannuation
* sick leave and workers comp
* administration time
* warranty (yep, sometimes things go wrong that you need to fix - even if they aren't exactly your fault)
* training
* insurance
* renewal of tools - that family car and blow torch will not last forever.

I am sure that there are other things, but as I said, they may gross $215,000 a year but they don't get paid that.

A garbage person may 'only' get paid $45,000 a year but they get sick leave, workers comp and superannuation on top of that.

Of course, but you can see where I'm going!..lol.


Cheers King Billy

[jstanovic]

I’ve been self employed for just over 10 years. I used to work 50hrs a week but only really got paid for 30-40 of them (depending on what happens). Paperwork, emails, quotes, site meetings, cancelled/postponed jobs, etc etc there is a a lot of downtime. Sure, if you’ve got a contract or arrangement that guarantees you 10hrs work a day then you wouldn’t be charging $90/hr or whatever. As a rule of thumb there are 6 billable hours in an 8hr work day (sometimes 2 sometimes 8). Your hourly rate needs to cover all the downtime relating to your work, unless you can itemise every minute if your day and allocate it to the associated job. Good luck with that!!

[Citroënbender]

Even then, you have unpredictable issues; your spare and “spare spare” items both break straight after the usual one. Murphy often has a way in these events, too!

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by jstanovic

I’ve been self employed for just over 10 years. I used to work 50hrs a week but only really got paid for 30-40 of them (depending on what happens). Paperwork, emails, quotes, site meetings, cancelled/postponed jobs, etc etc there is a a lot of downtime. Sure, if you’ve got a contract or arrangement that guarantees you 10hrs work a day then you wouldn’t be charging $90/hr or whatever. As a rule of thumb there are 6 billable hours in an 8hr work day (sometimes 2 sometimes 8). Your hourly rate needs to cover all the downtime relating to your work, unless you can itemise every minute if your day and allocate it to the associated job. Good luck with that!!

You can't charge other customers to make up for a "shortfall" in your daily/weekly hours, or, increase your rate to make up a "shortfall" for a downturn in business!!
That's why most folk work PAYE, its because they want the safety net of a steady income, not working to make up a "shortfall" just because you want to be "bossman"

Being the boss always looks good on paper, butters up that "ego" and tells all ya mates what a success you are?...ha, it is laughable, I spent time contracting and went back to wages and steady income, but lower wages!..I got fed up chasing people for money, in fact I spent more time on that and paperwork than bloody working!....

Old saying " don't p..s down my back and tell me its raining " I've been around the traps probably more than most, and I learnt the hard way the "difference between sh.t and clay"


Cheers King Billy

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Even then, you have unpredictable issues; your spare and “spare spare” items both break straight after the usual one. Murphy often has a way in these events, too!

Aye, would that not be Michael Murphy the plumber, by any chance now!



Cheers King Billy

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I learnt the hard way the "difference between sh.t and clay"


Cheers King Billy

I love that saying, I use it all the time at work

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I love that saying, I use it all the time at work

You use it because you understand it, its very powerful when used under the right conditions, well done!


Cheers King Billy

[Falcon SXR8]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I got fed up chasing people for money, in fact I spent more time on that and paperwork than bloody working!....
Cheers King Billy

Welcome to running your own business, that's why you have to work smarter not harder or you just go backwards. You have to take everything into account when it comes to pricing, including time wasted chasing people up, paperwork, downtime for repairs/servicing, wasted time doing quotes, insurance costs, time spent doing " induction courses " for every different job site, license costs, price of consumables skyrocketing due to covid supply issues or not being able to get them at all ect. Next thing you know to make it all worth while you have to charge $100 an hour for the 3 hours of actual physical work on the job site and put up with the uninformed complaining about your prices and how they could do it for half the price. All the while they have talked your ear off the whole time about how many investment properties they have and how successful they are.

[Ross 1]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

You can't charge other customers to make up for a "shortfall" in your daily/weekly hours, or, increase your rate to make up a "shortfall" for a downturn in business!!
That's why most folk work PAYE, its because they want the safety net of a steady income, not working to make up a "shortfall" just because you want to be "bossman"

Being the boss always looks good on paper, butters up that "ego" and tells all ya mates what a success you are?...ha, it is laughable, I spent time contracting and went back to wages and steady income, but lower wages!..I got fed up chasing people for money, in fact I spent more time on that and paperwork than bloody working!....

Old saying " don't p..s down my back and tell me its raining " I've been around the traps probably more than most, and I learnt the hard way the "difference between sh.t and clay"


Cheers King Billy

So being your own boss didn't work for you, nothing wrong with that, not everyone can make it work, there is a lot of effort involved and yes you do spend time outside of the 9-5 occasionally doing paperwork. To me the rewards out weigh this, I get the flexibility to work when I need to and let my guys do the rest, I still really enjoy being on the tools but I have employed the right people and know the job will get done in my absence if we decide to have a weekend away. No ego involved, if you were doing it to impress someone else and look successful that was probably why you failed at it.
With regards to what you can charge people it all depends on how much you think you are worth. I charge more because I know we give some of the best results around, people will only pay you what you think of yourself. I value mine and my guys time highly and you have to pay for our experience, knowledge and quality. I'm not going to drop my prices to the average market rate as I have seen the standard of average.

[jstanovic]

I don’t cover the shortfall, I allow for all the unbillable hours. My time spent quoting, invoicing, picking up materials etc is part of the job so I want to get paid for it. If a job takes 8 hrs and I did an extra 2hrs quoting, picking up materials, invoicing, who is going to pay for my 2hrs? The client does as it’s part of the work. I don’t charge them $100/hr for those 2hrs, I allow for it in my 8hrs of labour. That’s just basic business.

If a job gets cancelled or I’m sick that’s my bad luck and I’m out of pocket.

If you get home from your 8hrs wage paid work day, then the boss rings and says can you just do a couple hours on the computer for me, would you do it for free? What if he then said you need to do it at least 3times a week and I’m not paying you? What if he then said the client isn’t happy with the job so hes not paying me so you’re not getting paid? The list goes on, that’s the risk of being self employed.

If you’re on wages, do you think the boss charges you out at cost price?
Whatever your hourly rate it, double it and that is the cost price to have an employee when you factor in super, sick pay, annual leave, vehicle, fuel, phone, workers comp etc etc. So if you are getting paid on wages $35/hr, it costs the boss $60-70/hr to have you as an employee. Then add on top admin costs and a bit of profit (the reason you’re in business) then $90-100/hr is easily justified. Add workshop machinery/rent blah blah blah, all adds up.

If you’re charging $50/hr as a self employed person, and you’re paying for vehicle, accountant etc etc you will not make a decent wage, especially considering all the risk is on your shoulders.

Sure, if you work out of the car boot, have guaranteed 40hrs a week work, bugger all overheads, don’t have income protection etc etc you may make a good living off $50/hr.

Don’t take my word for it, plenty of info online showing business costs. I’m not telling anyone how to suck eggs, just might go a little way to showing my experience of being self employed. It’s definitely not for everyone!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Welcome to running your own business, that's why you have to work smarter not harder or you just go backwards. You have to take everything into account when it comes to pricing, including time wasted chasing people up, paperwork, downtime for repairs/servicing, wasted time doing quotes, insurance costs, time spent doing " induction courses " for every different job site, license costs, price of consumables skyrocketing due to covid supply issues or not being able to get them at all ect. Next thing you know to make it all worth while you have to charge $100 an hour for the 3 hours of actual physical work on the job site and put up with the uninformed complaining about your prices and how they could do it for half the price. All the while they have talked your ear off the whole time about how many investment properties they have and how successful they are.

Good to see I'm not the only person who gets those people through the gate - I organised some bespoke stuff manufactured for a Lamborghini Aventador once and the customer complained about it costing $700

Originally Posted by Ross 1

I value mine and my guys time highly and you have to pay for our experience, knowledge and quality. I'm not going to drop my prices to the average market rate as I have seen the standard of average.

That's a good point, I'm more expensive than my competitor but I have a 2000m2 warehouse/production facility, mechanical engineering and testing capabilities, 10 production staff and my competition is three blokes in a glorified shed.

The three blokes in the glorified shed are valuable though, I maintain a good relationship with them, they've got me out of the **** a couple times, plus you can put them forward as an alternative for something you don't want to do

[pottery beige]

dont let king billy coke bottle wind ya up guys

hes trolling hard

[jstanovic]

It’s not just responding to old mate troll, youll be surprised what people that have never been self employed learn from these threads!!! My mates used to think the same, when I explained it and went through the figures it opened their eyes quite a bit!!!

[Ross 1]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

dont let king billy coke bottle wind ya up guys

hes trolling hard

Unfortunately some trolls drink their own Kool-aid and believe what they type. I just wanted to clarify a point or two.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by jstanovic

Whatever your hourly rate it, double it and that is the cost price to have an employee when you factor in super, sick pay, annual leave, vehicle, fuel, phone, workers comp etc etc. So if you are getting paid on wages $35/hr, it costs the boss $60-70/hr to have you as an employee. Then add on top admin costs and a bit of profit (the reason you’re in business) then $90-100/hr is easily justified.

^^^^^^^^Spot On ^^^^^^^^

It amazes me How some People are unable to comprehend this Concept...

I've seen countless Would be if they could Be's Come & Go. Over the years..

Without exception. Lack of Business Skills/Acumen have been their Downfall.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

Welcome to running your own business, that's why you have to work smarter not harder or you just go backwards. You have to take everything into account when it comes to pricing, including time wasted chasing people up, paperwork, downtime for repairs/servicing, wasted time doing quotes, insurance costs, time spent doing " induction courses " for every different job site, license costs, price of consumables skyrocketing due to covid supply issues or not being able to get them at all ect. Next thing you know to make it all worth while you have to charge $100 an hour for the 3 hours of actual physical work on the job site and put up with the uninformed complaining about your prices and how they could do it for half the price. All the while they have talked your ear off the whole time about how many investment properties they have and how successful they are.

Go back on wages, not everyone can run their own business, I know plenty of home owners living on one income, no man with a toolbox is worth $90 an hour, full stop, but takes a lot of ya free time that could be spent relaxing doing paperwork!
That's business for you, the give and take, but sadly more take than give!


Cheers King Billy

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by hayseed

^^^^^^^^Spot On ^^^^^^^^

It amazes me How some People are unable to comprehend this Concept...

I've seen countless Would be if they could Be's Come & Go. Over the years..

Without exception. Lack of Business Skills/Acumen have been their Downfall.

Talking about sole traders here not PAYE, no sole trader with a toolbox is worth $90 an hour, never!
Greed is a terrible thing to try and justify, but folk do it, they will always find a reason to justify the big invoice!


Cheers King Billy

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Ross 1

Unfortunately some trolls drink their own Kool-aid and believe what they type. I just wanted to clarify a point or two.

Clarify to who?...yourself!


Cheers King Billy

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Clarify to who?...yourself!


Cheers King Billy

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Go back on wages, not everyone can run their own business, I know plenty of home owners living on one income, no man with a toolbox is worth $90 an hour, full stop, but takes a lot of ya free time that could be spent relaxing doing paperwork!
That's business for you, the give and take, but sadly more take than give!


Cheers King Billy

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Talking about sole traders here not PAYE, no sole trader with a toolbox is worth $90 an hour, never!
Greed is a terrible thing to try and justify, but folk do it, they will always find a reason to justify the big invoice!


Cheers King Billy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAOq99LdsoY

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by jstanovic

It’s not just responding to old mate troll, youll be surprised what people that have never been self employed learn from these threads!!! My mates used to think the same, when I explained it and went through the figures it opened their eyes quite a bit!!!

You must of had quite the audience, I can see it now, the blind leading the blind, that's always had a positive outcome!
Sadly not everyone agrees with everyone else's opinion, or their mathematics, Bond, Skase they thought like you, nothing wrong about dreaming, its good for your ego!!!!


Cheers King Billy

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

dont let king billy coke bottle wind ya up guys

hes trolling hard

Are you sure its the VT Wagon thats on gas!!! lol,....



Cheers King Billy