VE GTS 427 385kw here October 07

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by FASTXR

I've actually re-read my post and I'm buggered if I can see where I've said anything like that.
The point made was that we can't expect power figures to keep going up and up just for the sake of it. Manufacturers need to keep in mind variables such as R&D costs, fuel prices, emissions requirements and possible warranty issues before they commit to any project. What Gorman was getting at was that rather than saying "lets just give it another 50kw", there may be other ways to improve the driving experience for owners (weight loss, better ride and handling etc) while providing modest power gains (say 10-20kw).

Semantics really, you quoted or paraphrased what FPV boss Tom Gorman said.

at which point do you say enough is enough? He put forward that realistically, how much power and what sort of speeds does a car really need in a country where most of us are limited to 110km/h?

The extension I applied was that obviously a car only needs enough power to do 110KPH fully loaded and he is the boss of the PERFORMANCE devision, pretty sad really when the head of the PERFORMANCE division thinks you only need enough to do the speed limit. The boss should be demanding as much as they can reliable get, the bean counters can moderate the cost, and marketing can moderate the political reaction. Oh well at least they still have the stickers and stripes machine, at least they can still print fancy labels to keep the fans pashionate. GT400, no not 400KW or even 400HP, just a limited edition of 400. Next year it will be GT500, no not 500KW or even 500 built, just based on the US 500 (note for the humor impaired, that was sarcasim, as was most of this post).

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

He’s sold it now hasn’t he?

Are we talking about a GTS HSV with stock Monaro body panels?

Or it could be the one some German Tuner has rebodied put his own badges on and is trying to sell it for around 3x the price.

I seriously cant wait til they release this car, as long as they arent all painted yellow.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That is the problem though, Buy V Cry...
I can appreciate and make allowance for the fact that this is a Forum where anyone of any age or financial position can share their views or opinions, either pasionately of quietly, and it would be easy to get the feeling FPV would sell thousands of "GTHO's" due to just the voice of demand expressed here, sadly that isnt the case in reality though, id guarantee 99.9% of people calling for 400kw or a "GTHO" neither have (or would ever have) the $$ to actually buy one, nor have the interest to own one at the price it would cost....

They're just pasionate Performance Ford enthusiasts.

Its an emotional subject, and a Niche market...

Well I am in the 0.01%, I can afford it. I wouldn't buy a GTHO, truthfully because no matter what they did, it would denegrate the name, the GTHO is special because of what it represents, road going race machines built to drive from the shop floor and do 500 miles at Bathurst. Anything in the modern era is just a badge trying to jack up sales, I said the same when HSV did the XU6, unless its a Torana with a stinking hot 6, then its just trying to sell more product (and they should NEVER use XU1/A9X).

HSV however are trying to make something exclusive, yeah its not a Euro, I can also afford those and I have never bought one, I was raised around Ford's, I watched Bathhurst, I had a poster of the Walky on my wall over my bed, my brother has a Holden bedspread and pillow cases. I am one of those who were hooked on the Holden/Ford Bathurst thing from the 70's and 80's (Yeah I watched the Hardy 500, so that should pin my age), Ford/Holden may not be quite as good as the Euros, but for me they are good enough. HSV are tyring to maintain the passion in their brand, have spotty teans lust after one, stop, point and giggle like school girls when one drives past. If they make a small loss doing that, its a small price to pay for 20 more years of making prfits from people who dreamed of owning one. Can somebody point out to me what is aspirational about the FPV's, that outside the enthusist community is grabbing the hearts and minds of the future business leaders (ie our kids)? Believe me, it would not take much change to make the F6 into an aspirational car. Good on HSV for daring to regain some of the past glory.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by T3ts50

Or it could be the one some German Tuner has rebodied put his own badges on and is trying to sell it for around 3x the price.

I seriously cant wait til they release this car, as long as they arent all painted yellow.

I was talking about Peter Hanenberger’s (ex GMH director) retirement present.

The Bitter coupe that you are talking about would have to be based on the VE seeing as the Monaro is out of production now

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BadMac

The performance car game is all about POWER (and all the other aspects of performance). Audi, BMW, MB, Porsche, etc all understand it. FPV should have a quick look at their name and try to figure out what the "P" stands for. Ford profitable vehicles, Ford poser vehicles, Ford pretend vehicles, Ford pretty vehicles, oh thats right we were surposed to be FOA's performance arm.

FPV certainly do make a performance car and before them Tick ford. It’s only with the advent of the VE that Holden have decided to make a performance car in the totality of that sentiment. Perhaps you missed the Holden’s own admission at launch. "No No this time WE MEAN IT"

Performance is only all about power while it is preferred against the clarification as you have.

The performance car game is certainly not all about power. Never has. Never will be.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Can somebody point out to me what is aspirational about the FPV's, that outside the enthusist community is grabbing the hearts and minds of the future business leaders (ie our kids)? Believe me, it would not take much change to make the F6 into an aspirational car. Good on HSV for daring to regain some of the past glory.

Are you seriously suggesting the F6 isn't an aspirational product? Get a grip man. Your red slip is showing despite your claims to the contary.

Confining your statement to the V8 FPV products you make much more sense. The current F6 is basically in run out mode just as the VZ HSVs were. Yes those cars were still aspirational to the people that purchased them, which I remind you were in similar numbers to those being shifted by FPV right now. They are aspirational because they offer a previous Performance car of the year winner that is still at the pinnacle of current benchmarks set by the E series cars, at a price advantage.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Semantics really, you quoted or paraphrased what FPV boss Tom Gorman said.



The extension I applied was that obviously a car only needs enough power to do 110KPH fully loaded and he is the boss of the PERFORMANCE devision, pretty sad really when the head of the PERFORMANCE division thinks you only need enough to do the speed limit. The boss should be demanding as much as they can reliable get, the bean counters can moderate the cost, and marketing can moderate the political reaction. Oh well at least they still have the stickers and stripes machine, at least they can still print fancy labels to keep the fans pashionate. GT400, no not 400KW or even 400HP, just a limited edition of 400. Next year it will be GT500, no not 500KW or even 500 built, just based on the US 500 (note for the humor impaired, that was sarcasim, as was most of this post).

I organised a club Q and A back in Feb for the FPV family day. Not sure if this is the same presentation spoken of here but what Tom said isn't exactly what is being suggested.

Brian certainly did make such a statement in response to questions being asked about power levels but later fully explained the comments with greater context. I might have to check the tape but by the end of the respective speaker’s presentations I think it was clearly evident there is no managerial issue on this front, not with the current FPV administration anyway.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by HSE2

FPV certainly do make a performance car and before them Tick ford. It’s only with the advent of the VE that Holden have decided to make a performance car in the totality of that sentiment. Perhaps you missed the Holden’s own admission at launch. "No No this time WE MEAN IT"

Performance is only all about power while it is preferred against the clarification as you have.

The performance car game is certainly not all about power. Never has. Never will be.

Whilst not all about power, it has more to do with it than anything else. The all paw HSV Monaro offered other performance advantages than power and they sold heaps slower than equivilent GTO, GTS etc etc. Dont get me wrong I think handling, brakes, equiptment finalises sales but if you dont have the matching figures in this "performance car segment" you arent going to get the buyers wanting to get to your showroom to see the rest of the car and even your loyalists are going to question whether they want to spend 70 big ones.

Not insinuating you are in this catergory but I have seen numerous examples of BA/BF owners here who in their minds know they wont upgrade to Orion living in hope that their "leader of the Ford pack pride and joy" wont suddenly be superseeded by a much improved and faster car. Not many but a few.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by KNG-40L

As much as i could be biased about this, i think its fantastic that HSV want to step up again in the ring and earn the right to the heavyweight title! Its just so easy to degrade our opposition (hsv) where they can build a car that can match the german army, for half its price with the aussie grunt to back it up!

Spot on.

The simple fact is that Holden and HSV do have easy access to power plants. It’s a global Ford issue that we don’t.

HSV have found them selves in the inevitable position of being able to shoot for the stars, so good on them for trying, if in fact that’s what they do. It doesn't matter what the product is called. It matters from an engineering stand point these guys believe they can makes such a product. As an Australian I find it incomprehensible that we consider ourselves automatically inferior and our products not worthy of what really is a respectable ask for such potential. Take the shackles off and lets see what is possible.

Provided HSV understand the totality of the task at hand and don’t compromise they should produce a product that we can be proud in the overall scheme of things.

FPV lost its way of that there is no doubt. The loyal here would rather sit back and say how much power do you need, look at HSV resale value look at the sales numbers the government is to blame there is an agreement in place and so on. Monotonous drivel without founding.

Consumer based products are current products. If an organisation is committed to providing such products and that takes into account the endless expenditure for very little real gain then there is no point to the venture.

For all the anti HSV sentiment that is often displayed on this site, full marks must go to a company that has fully understood it position in the Holden portfolio and has attempted to provide consumers with a choice of continuously evolving product that at days end is more in keeping with what the performance sector demands.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

Whilst not all about power, it has more to do with it than anything else. The all paw HSV Monaro offered other performance advantages than power and they sold heaps slower than equivilent GTO, GTS etc etc. Dont get me wrong I think handling, brakes, equiptment finalises sales but if you dont have the matching figures in this "performance car segment" you arent going to get the buyers wanting to get to your showroom to see the rest of the car and even your loyalists are going to question whether they want to spend 70 big ones.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Well kind of anyway. I am sure there is an element of the public that simply look at the engine number and say that is a performance king. They would be well and truly wrong but they are out there. HSV had a monopoly on them.

A power number as a bragging right is for amateurs, for people that don’t know any better.

HSV grew up with E series and to a degree have dragged their owners along for the ride. It’s a ride they won’t regret. The 10 kW jump on a performance scale or the appeal of the 307 moniker fails miserably to being able to use that power. The number of people that actually complained about "only a 10kw increase" fully highlighted the marketing machine previously in play by that marque and the fact HSV have grown up to the point they have out Tickford FPV.

Power is a headline, while performance is about achieving. Ford produced headlining power numbers at Ba reveal only to have a hand full of products realise that potential.
I accept that the situation might be preferable to keyboard jockeys but that isn't me. Performance is about benchmarking against the competition. Power to weight with sufficient drive or grip. Making the power usable is what performance is about and most often the engine is the last thing in that line. Technology can largely mask engine deficiencies but the same can’t be said for other elements. A specific power number doesn't speak in terms of performance. Even in racing terms peak numbers wont give you speed or performance.

After years of power increases by the HSV camp it is ironic that the best performance car in this country is so because it truly does have a global equity in grip, suspension and brakes.

[KBBossedXR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That is the problem though, Buy V Cry...
I can appreciate and make allowance for the fact that this is a Forum where anyone of any age or financial position can share their views or opinions, either pasionately of quietly, and it would be easy to get the feeling FPV would sell thousands of "GTHO's" due to just the voice of demand expressed here, sadly that isnt the case in reality though, id guarantee 99.9% of people calling for 400kw or a "GTHO" neither have (or would ever have) the $$ to actually buy one, nor have the interest to own one at the price it would cost....

They're just pasionate Performance Ford enthusiasts.

Its an emotional subject, and a Niche market...

I am glad to see you will make allowances for us members of any age and financial position. I can guarantee you that there would be more than just 0.1% of members ready to buy a GTHO if there was one, but dont PANIC this wont have an effect on your old HO if thats what your worried about. If i wanted to i spend $100,000 on a car i would but it wouldnt be a new Falcon no matter how much power it had, i have had to many problems with my GT and XR8 to even consider spending that much on a Ford, not to mention warranty.
Imagine this spend $100,000 on GTHO the thing used 5.25litres of there special oil during the 3 4000km oil consumption tests and has a delay of 6seconds going into reverse, handbrake constantly sticking on and i dont even use it, front brake shudder that has been a ***** to get rid off, clicking steering (this they fixed).
Ford/Fpv say all this comes under there operating standards and i am lumped with it, 68,000kms and still under warranty.
The only good thing out of it is when i get it fixed atleast it will be fixed properly.

[Falcon SXR8]

If FPV came out of nowere and said it was going to make a 380kw GT you would all be jumping for joy wouldn't you but now HSV are doing it and you are all like "oh no who would buy that its just all power no handaling they won't make any money'' Now I am as blue blooded as anyone man I even own a AU XR8 one of the most despised ford models out there and I love it but if HSV do this than you have to give credit where credit is due.

I just whis FPV would give us a hero car.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by HSE2

As an Australian I find it incomprehensible that we consider ourselves automatically inferior.

Quote of the year!

[Des]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Quote of the year!

I'll agree with that, especially when an internationally respected industry expert says "the BA rides and handles better than a E-sreies Merc...."
Laudits have also been thrown the way of the VE (pains me to say though). Australian engineering talents are well respected around the world.
Hopefully someone will know, but what is the torsional rigidity of a B-series Falcon sedan? Hasn't FPV admitted that the B-series could easily handle 320kw odd in it's current guise? I'm sure thay stated that the B-series chassis could handle close to 370kw+ stock. Didn't they also admit the the driveline is the weak link? Better clutch and CV's which they could easily source locally or from the FoMoCo parts bin, sign a deal with a local supplier (who has already ADR complied their kit) of a blower kit & there is possibly the answer to the GTS-R. IMO anyway....

[KBBossedXR]

I am Australian and i have owned, seen, heard about, read about, so many pieces of **** that come of our production lines that this could be a damm good reason for alot of Aussies thinking we are inferior when it comes to building cars, Thank god we have some extremly good mechanics to work on the cars once there built.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by HSE2

After years of power increases by the HSV camp it is ironic that the best performance car in this country is so because it truly does have a global equity in grip, suspension and brakes.

I think you are reffering to the improvements in the donor car that has enabled them to improve in that area further. Theres actually little/no difference in any braking/tyres to what they had previously but it makes a bigger difference on a stiffer chassis with a much wider track.

Its also wrong to look at the 307 badge and just assume 10 kw like you have done. Like the next engine (6.2 I think) that they will bring in 12 months to push the performance to their desired levels, its the low end torque, transmitions gearing that make the VE HSVs much Quicker than the VZ or FPVs. Its one of the reasond when I hear the next GT might have 310kw I think to myself; sure but will it be 310 and 520nm with all the power up high again or will it actually have; as you mention power that can be used like in the VE or f6 Typhoon?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

If FPV came out of nowere and said it was going to make a 380kw GT you would all be jumping for joy wouldn't you but now HSV are doing it and you are all like "oh no who would buy that its just all power no handaling they won't make any money'' Now I am as blue blooded as anyone man I even own a AU XR8 one of the most despised ford models out there and I love it but if HSV do this than you have to give credit where credit is due.

I just whis FPV would give us a hero car.

i agree . but why can HSV simply produce a car with a 7 litre v8 engine , with phenominal power and torque with a 7100 rpm cutout,@ 100 to 120k and just advertise it , and everybody claps and cheers . when ford produce a 4 litre turbo sedan , which is comparible to an sti, and get media controversy over pushing the limits . ?????

as i keep saying lots of things go on behind the scenes that we dont know about .
i for one am happy to see a performance car like this GTS . I'D LOVE TO SEE A fpv ONE ALSO . BUT DOUBT it will happen , because something is going on behind the scenes .

i'll add a little here . one thing the fords do , is always produce more power than stated, especially fpv models , they may not have the best engine charectoristics for drags, but it seems to be the only way ford can acheive power . they certainly cant advertise it .

[Piotr]

If you want a ford powered supercar buy a Koenigsegg. Its engine is based off the Ford Modular

[FlipXW]

Personally i love the idea of it. And i would love FPV to do something similar.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by stroked67

I am Australian and i have owned, seen, heard about, read about, so many pieces of **** that come of our production lines that this could be a damm good reason for alot of Aussies thinking we are inferior when it comes to building cars, Thank god we have some extremly good mechanics to work on the cars once there built.

Mate it’s the same all over. My European car spent nearly 6 months off the road because it had a fault with the engine program. Turned out a recent software upgrade caused it. The lack of accountability and responsibility wasn't far removed from that of the locals. And don't get me started on BMW or Merc. Hows $2500 for a steering column after only 11000kms? Shouldn't it have been engineered to last longer then that?

They all have horror stories except the Euros charge much more to experience them and fix them.

As an owner of both, yes paint, especially paint, plastics are better but they would want to be. Rattles and noises don't seem to discriminate on cost but you tend to be ****ed off more in something that costs more. You think you have paid enough to get away from the sort of stuff but sadly it doesn't always work out that way. Audi do seem to be the exception with more product (in my experience) being fault free.

It’s about keeping things in perspective. European cars designed and built for global economies with budgets that far out strip our locals should achieve better results in customer satisfaction. If you can afford to go there then that’s fine. But it’s not an automatic walk in assumption that a limited build that concentrates on all aspects can't achieve better levels especially if attention to detail is provided.

But who is the target here?

Despite what HSV think their product is never going to trouble the thinking of an M or AMG buyer. It will never say the same thing in the statement column. But that’s ok. It’s not an issue, just as it wouldn't be on the Ford side.

As the cost of the locals increases so to must attention to detail. It’s ok only up to a point for HSV to say we have a new driveline to sustain this extra performance. Once you cross that 100k line the excuses for compromises diminish. Attention to the finer details has to increase. If the product carries that sort of ask, it not ok to tick just a few of the boxes. While ever the volume is small finding owners with a higher tolerance level won’t be taxing. Maintaining volume of such a product with quality issues would be.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

I think you are reffering to the improvements in the donor car that has enabled them to improve in that area further. Theres actually little/no difference in any braking/tyres to what they had previously but it makes a bigger difference on a stiffer chassis with a much wider track.

Actually you are wrong. HSV have never fitted 275 rear rubber. HSV new Brake system is a first for them. Standard across the range and only four pistons to allow standardisation of electronic stability control, they allow the E series to brake from benchmark distances equal to or better then some very impressive European cars.

66% of the line up come equipped with the patented MRC suspension system to provided anti dive and squat properties.

This is the most complete HSV product ever that represents massive investment over that of the donor car, another first for HSV.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ED Classic

Its also wrong to look at the 307 badge and just assume 10 kw like you have done.

I haven't and don't. Remember I am the one who is saying as a number that isn't worth the paper it’s written on in terms of quantifying what is performance or what performance gain might be possible. Any number high or low is meaningless by itself.

[Falc'man]

Goodness me that motor only weighs 6kg more than the 4.0 v8 in the upcoming M3!

[sexr6tasy]

To me it looks like holden are pushing to be the one and only car company left in the rwd aussie car war like other people have said if one falls the other would probably fall aswell however i believe that ford or holden owners would jump ship to keep open whats on offer whether holden falls because they "waste" money on niche cars with crazy power or succeed because they dare to challenge the face of Aussie cars which imo is understated is up to the future.

[gtfpv]

FPVs. Its one of the reasond when I hear the next GT might have 310kw I think to myself; sure but will it be 310 and 520nm with all the power up high again or will it actually have; as you mention power that can be used like in the VE or f6 Typhoon?[/QUOTE]


i often struggle with this too, i wonder if they advertise 310kw,s would they actually drop in power .
but yes the big question is torque . and how its tuned .
this is off topic to the 7 litre GTS . but 297kw and 307kws were quotied in differant formats werent they, which means 307 kw's was actually 298. also what are the 307's putting out at the wheels , do we have any dyno charts available . ( stock) are they producing 240 to 250 RWKW'S and what does 240 to 250 RWKW'S EQUATE TO IN FWKW'S . . it's the torque and revs that seem to be the ls2 's good point, as it is shown they are probably infront of the f6. in mag quotes anyhow . i havent seen sub 14's on the strip yet out of them . i know it seems weird but a lot doesnt seem to add up. it's all over the place .

[KBBossedXR]

I wasnt comparing my Falcon to Merc or BMW, A good comparison was my dads Subaru Liberty B4 price $52,000 my BA GT price $59,000. Road noise, cabin noise, interior quality, parts quality, build quality, paint quality, Subaru after sales service.
The Subaru wins hands down on all points.

How many diffs,trans,engines,steering racks,brakes,paint jobs,sound systems,computers,bodykits,suspension parts,cooling systems,fuel systems, have been replaced or are been argued for by customers, and unexplained knocks,cluncks,rattles,clicks that are troubling owners of current Australian built cars. this is why i have the oppinion i do you may take it as negative but i am going on actual current car problems.
have a look on some of the threads about, warranty issues, problems you have had with BA/BF, would you buy another Ford, this will give you an idea that its not just me that thinks this way.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by sexr6tasy

i believe that ford or holden owners would jump ship to keep open whats on offer.

You betcha! It happened in the past. A lot of Ford people jumped ship when Ford dropped the V8 opting for a Holden V8 at that time because there was no other real alternative then (at least now there is a turbo 6) Actually when you think about it, Holden had a limited run of turbo 6's back then as well as the V8. Ford might have as well gone to front wheel drive at the same time for all of the damage they did with this decision.

This helped the VN to be successful and allowed Holden to claw its way back and also why Ford ultimately had to reintroduce the V8. I know some that liked Fords previously to Ford dropping the V8 but have never gone back. I also know someone that finally went back with the BA after a long list of V8 Commodores. He originally had XY's and XB's in the 70's.

Note: When Ford dropped the V8 back in 83, it sparked a campaign by the car mags and enthusiasts alike called "V8's till 98" to try and convince Holden not to do the same. Fortunately for all of us it worked! Otherwise none of us would have the performance that we have today.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by stroked67

I wasnt comparing my Falcon to Merc or BMW, A good comparison was my dads Subaru Liberty B4 price $52,000 my BA GT price $59,000. Road noise, cabin noise, interior quality, parts quality, build quality, paint quality, Subaru after sales service.
The Subaru wins hands down on all points.

How many diffs,trans,engines,steering racks,brakes,paint jobs,sound systems,computers,bodykits,suspension parts,cooling systems,fuel systems, have been replaced or are been argued for by customers, and unexplained knocks,cluncks,rattles,clicks that are troubling owners of current Australian built cars. this is why i have the oppinion i do you may take it as negative but i am going on actual current car problems.
have a look on some of the threads about, warranty issues, problems you have had with BA/BF, would you buy another Ford, this will give you an idea that its not just me that thinks this way.

I don't take it as negative, I take it as a fact and I agree.

The quality is not there and it’s not good enough.

However specific to this HSV product at a cost of 125k to 150k BMW and Merc are very much in the picture and a natural comparison to this purported HSV product.

What you are saying is you would find it hard to justify such an expense full stop given the cheaper, “better” products that are available

Specific to this topic I am not sure the appreciation is actually there for what HSV has done with E series and how much difference or change there has been over what has traditionally been the HSV product involvement. This is the most comprehensively engineer Australian car ever. Increasing its potential to the levels of this topic doesn’t represent the same jump as in previous generations of HSVs

What I wouldn’t do out of hand is blanket claim I would never pay x for an Australian product because it ignores the opportunity to change. It ignores the fact that my endless letters to Ford regarding manual driveline refinement had no impact what so ever.

That Ford presentation that was mentioned up further, well it showed me that companies do listen. Within the budget parameters that are set for such products, expectations don’t always gel between consumer and manufacturer but they are listening. They have to or face becoming extinct.

We can’t continue to judge the future by the past forever. I agree there at least has to be some measure of improvement and I think that is evident with VE over VZ. It’s for that reason that I couldn’t say I would never pay 125k for such a car.

[merlin]

Power means nothing to me and I doubt to many serious performance car buyers (though maybe V8 buyers are different? I dunno, i have never owned or wanted to own a v8). 0-100 figures and to a lesser exter 400m figures, mean a whole lot more (to me anyway). Sure the two are directly related in some sense, but things like suspension set-up also contribute to a 0-100 run. If the speed limit is 110km/h all i care about is how fast your performance car can get me there.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Xitdxr

LOL, Your right, prestigious brands do appeal more to people who have the money to splash around, but this is my point, people who can afford $125,000, wouldnt put there money down on a holden (not the smart ones anyway).

I dont get off as you put it on driving European cars. I am fortunate that i get to drive most of the vehicles people on here talk about, and criticise btw, before they have even seen one in the flesh. If you dont like them, thats fine, but i suggest you drive one before you turn your nose up at it, or get behind the keyboard.

lol ******....