Falcon I6 to be dropped in favour of a V6

[b0son]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

The rest of the world has an enormous amount of respect for the durability of Australian designed and built cars

I notice you didnt actually name the Falcon. Of course, hardly anyone else buys it but us, so....

[BAFalconXT]

Originally Posted by mcnamg

It will happen in 2010 as stated in the article if you read it.

I am not blind, maybe you should read it more closely. It states the emission standards will change in 2010 and that a V6 motor is ONE option that is being considered. With as much engineering that Ford has done on the I6 and I6 turbo and to build the Territory and Falcon around it, to change from an I6 to a V6 using the same plateform is NOT going to happen.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XR8Master

Well, Jim Mock can tune a I6 to produce 230kw NA

But he doesnt work for Ford, so it's irrelevant, isnt it? Compare apples with apples, and the Toyota apple is tasting better than the Ford apple.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XR8Master

well, OUT OF THE FACTORY, a I6 has more power then your camry on steroids

Not out of the Ford factory, at least not until you strap a turbo on it - your figures:

Camry
336Nm @ 4700rpm
200kW @ 6200rpm

Ford
190kW @ 5250rpm
383Nm @ 2500rpm

[b0son]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Anyone who has driven a N/A I6 will testify that unopened and without mods the XT Falcon is a brick to get off the line.

Yep... wheezy, harsh. All I can do is take Ford's word for it the power is there, because if the proof's in the pudding, my pudding is cold.

My dad just got an Aurion - hands down smoother and has more urge than my BA, all over the rev range. And its not even run in.

Yes, technically, an I6 is capable of being the smoother engine configuration. However, Ford have yet to crack it. Far better raiding the FoMoCo parts bin and sticking in a well-sorted V6. I dont see BMW willing to let Ford stick their badge on it, and god knows Ford arent getting anywhere with theirs...

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Not out of the Ford factory, at least not until you strap a turbo on it - your figures:

Camry
336Nm @ 4700rpm
200kW @ 6200rpm

Ford
190kW @ 5250rpm
383Nm @ 2500rpm

On paper that may look good in your favour, but the max power of 200kw is reached at 6200rpm compared to the Falcon off 5250rpm and when you through the torque fiqures in theres really no comparison, the Toyota has reached it's peak at a screeming 4700 compared to the Falc's off 2500, all those fiqures prove is good for pub talk my friend.

[crYnOid]

Hate to say this but going from I6 to V6 might not be the worst news to come from Ford Aust. If what an insider (who is normally very accurate) on a US forum says is correct, Ford are about to consolidate RWD platforms around 2011 from 3 to 1.

The current platforms being:
Falcon
Panther
Mustang (D2C?)

Apparently the oldest 2 wont survive beyond 2011. It seems Ford have looked at what GM are doing with Holden and think it is a good idea, but the platform they will build everything on isn't what everyone on here would hope for.

The good news?
Export markets open up (middle east/NA).
Ford Aust develop sedans which will be used in Aus and the US.
The LWB fairlane will return due to export markets opening up.

I expect the I6 is being killed due to it just not being feasible/designed to fit it into the next gen platform (to loooong). Therefore there is no point in upgrading to Euro4 for just a year.

*waits to be shot down*

[HSE2]

Holly hell. Some of you guys need a lesson in comparison control. Surely they still teach that in science!

You simply can’t start saying V6 is better because some knob on U tube has proven so. Same applies to the Inline six. Unless you put each engine in the exact same product there is no point to the discussion. A Toyota engine fitted to the falcon wouldn't return the same numbers or NVH as it does in its own product. Same applies in the converse. A car and its performance is the sum of all its parts.

Seriously. It’s just like that other rubbish debate regarding pushrods. Apples with apples ones says. When’s that discussion going to start?

Each engine type has its own harmonic issue V6 V8 V10 V12, all v engines have it. It’s a well known and published fact that a great deal of effort and money needs to be spent to balance the V6. That doesn't mean it can’t be done it just means that there’s more to it then the inline 6 which has a different set of characteristics.

I mean if we are really going to start comparing these apples I guess we better wait and see what the numbers are for Orion inline six. Odds on they are going to exceed Toyota but who really cares.

There are harsh realities that have to be explored and sorted. More attention needs to be paid to posts the like of Death XR and RPO83 in this thread.

If a V6 is the best way forward then so be it. Ford have a high bar to pass with the current engine and I am sure Orion will raise that bar again to reclaim its mantle of the best 6 cylinder car in the country. A ford V6 will need to surpass that benchmark hopefully a V6 that is bolted together in Australia. There will be trade offs for sure and personally my preference would be to retain the inline six as it has a driving characteristic that is embedded in Australian folk law, but not at the expense of the product becoming unviable or irrelevant. There is going to come a time when the combustion engine is dead so I am sure we are all wanting Ford to be on top of that situation.

[svo347]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Holly hell. Some of you guys need a lesson in comparison control. Surely they still teach that in science!

You simply can’t start saying V6 is better because some knob on U tube has proven so. Same applies to the Inline six. Unless you put each engine in the exact same product there is no point to the discussion. A Toyota engine fitted to the falcon wouldn't return the same numbers or NVH as it does in its own product. Same applies in the converse. A car and its performance is the sum of all its parts.

Seriously. It’s just like that other rubbish debate regarding pushrods. Apples with apples ones says. When’s that discussion going to start?

Each engine type has its own harmonic issue V6 V8 V10 V12, all v engines have it. It’s a well known and published fact that a great deal of effort and money needs to be spent to balance the V6. That doesn't mean it can’t be done it just means that there’s more to it then the inline 6 which has a different set of characteristics.

I mean if we are really going to start comparing these apples I guess we better wait and see what the numbers are for Orion inline six. Odds on they are going to exceed Toyota but who really cares.

There are harsh realities that have to be explored and sorted. More attention needs to be paid to posts the like of Death XR and RPO83 in this thread.

If a V6 is the best way forward then so be it. Ford have a high bar to pass with the current engine and I am sure Orion will raise that bar again to reclaim its mantle of the best 6 cylinder car in the country. A ford V6 will need to surpass that benchmark hopefully a V6 that is bolted together in Australia. There will be trade offs for sure and personally my preference would be to retain the inline six as it has a driving characteristic that is embedded in Australian folk law, but not at the expense of the product becoming unviable or irrelevant. There is going to come a time when the combustion engine is dead so I am sure we are all wanting Ford to be on top of that situation.

Well presented..... :

[bingoTE50]

Interesting thread... Heres a curve ball ... How about v6 turbo diesel. There is no doubt that car manufacturers are exploring turbo diesel for their vehicles.. I would say that there are probably a lot of potential Territory customers just hanging for one to be offered .
As far as I6 or v6 , does not worry me. I have had plenty of troubles with both.. Head gasket probs in the E series Falcons , oil leaks in Commodes.. I think it is more important to keep RWD . A duratec v6 in the Escape/Tribute has good grunt off the line and rev quite well. A bit of development and they could be adequate.
My personal choice is a v8 ... whilst I can afford to run it .

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

GoAuto is way off the mark. Huntsman model to be released in 2010 will still be using the I6 engine and for some years after that.

FF

What I said last night was based upon information dating to the start of 2007 which was correct at that time. I did some investigation today and I am no longer so confident. I was told that Ford would make some big announcement within the next month.

If what GoAuto says is correct I know one company who are located in Bundoora and are investing a lot of money in future I6 engine programs who are going to be mighty ****ed off.

If the septics kill the local I6 for no good reason (Euro 4 argument is schitt as there is not a big step from 3 to 4 as there was from 2 to 3) then I strongly recommend that Ford repays all the government money paid to date (ACIS subsidy). Our tax payers money was to ensure the jobs of Australian workers, not to go as profit to the US head office.

If the septics kill the local I6 for no good reason I will never buy another Ford vehicle.

FF

[andrewts]

The Toyota Camry V6 is a very bad car, and it's motor is indeed a bad comparison to the I6. Reason being is that they are too different.

The Camry V6 is a whistling suffocating screaming little child that can run around very quickly. However, give him a backpack full of bricks and watch him suffer.

The Falcon I6 is the Juggernaut. Give him a backpack full of bricks and see if he even notices.

If Ford has a V6 Juggernaut, then it's OK. But if it is gutless, I'll bet Commodore Wagons and Utes will be in demand.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by andrewts

The Camry V6 is a whistling suffocating screaming little child that can run around very quickly. However, give him a backpack full of bricks and watch him suffer.

I know a work colleague who replaced his Falcon with an Aurion. Although he likes his Toyota, he misses the torque of the Falcon I6 engine.

FF

[Bitmap]

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

My personal choice is a v8 ... whilst I can afford to run it .

I agree. Just stick with the V8s and there is no problem!!!!!!!!

[andrewts]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

I know a work colleague who replaced his Falcon with an Aurion. Although he likes his Toyota, he misses the torque of the Falcon I6 engine.

FF

Yeah, my dad replaced an EL Fairmont Ghia V8 with an Aurion, and whilst he likes it, after having hired a few Falcons after he upgraded, he maintains that the Falcon still is much nicer and smoother to drive, and more comfortable. Funnily enough, the thing he misses most about his Fairmont was the stereo. He loved that stereo. I can't blame him, the Aurion truly has a shockingly bad stereo.

[falzoony]

Originally Posted by andrewts

The Toyota Camry V6 is a very bad car, and it's motor is indeed a bad comparison to the I6. Reason being is that they are too different.

The Camry V6 is a whistling suffocating screaming little child that can run around very quickly. However, give him a backpack full of bricks and watch him suffer.

The Falcon I6 is the Juggernaut. Give him a backpack full of bricks and see if he even notices.

Agreed.
I am absolutly devostated about the news. The I6 has soo much more power, thats why most trucks have I6's. Also most people who have horse trailer, caravans etc, buy falcons because of the power. They will loose so many of these sales when they go to the v6.

The main thing that falcon had against commodore was the I6.

I don't think I will be able to sleep after reading that, it was like a stephan king novel.

[Venomous1]

The V6 Problem must be viewed from a global village perspective.Ford has known for ten years that The I6 will need to be replaced by a V6.In a world car scenario a V6 is miles ahead from the point of view of packaging and ease of manufacture.It is easily adapted to rear wheel drive and Front Wheel Drive.We have to consider future developments like alternative fuels and hybrid vehicles,a V6 fits the package much easier (cheaper).
We may all be attached to the old I6 war horse,but it's days are numbered.Ford is a business and decisions must be made with this as a primary consideration,To compete successfully,Sorry Mates sentimentality and emotions cannot influence business Decisions.Don't get me wrong I love Rear wheel Drive and Torquey V8's.But to Survive in a global market Ford must offer competitive products.

[Des]

Wonder what the FoMoCo answer to developing the Aussie I6 will be "if" Orion is exported to the US as the Victoria Crown etc., and the yanks fall on love with the lazy, torquey and easy drivability of the Aussie 6. I was wishing for years that Ford would drop the I6 into a Territory sized vehicle, made to measure. Good match, torquey, easy to drive and roll-on acceleration kills all in it's class. Yeah the 3.5 V6 Toyota use is smooth, but they spend 100's of millions of $ installing dual counter rotation balance shafts etc. to get it there. Spend similar on the Aussie 6 and it would be much easier to make it much smother than the aforementioned Toyo V6. The I6 configuration has an inherant "balance" that makes it the smoothest piston engine configuration designed so far straight out of the box (therefore cheaper and easier to reduce NVH).
Let's hope that FoMoCo let Ford Oz export the Falcon 6, the bigger the market, that easier it will be to "sell" the development costs to the board.

Apart from that, harden up and buy an 8 (jokes kids)

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by falzoony

Agreed.
I am absolutly devostated about the news. The I6 has soo much more power, thats why most trucks have I6's. Also most people who have horse trailer, caravans etc, buy falcons because of the power. They will loose so many of these sales when they go to the v6.

The main thing that falcon had against commodore was the I6.

I don't think I will be able to sleep after reading that, it was like a stephan king novel.

I would argue that the other way.I think the v6 has long been used as a marketing tool against ford by holden and toyota.The majority of the general public assume the v6 is better because that's what gm/toyota/mitsu have told them.When was the last ford add you saw boasting about the power of the n/a i6?Toyotas aurion add seems to be on every channel every 5 minutes screaming about being the most powerfull n/a 6 in oz.Did I mention it was a v6,'cause they do?

Ask anyone who isn't an enthusiest what is better,they will tell you a v6.

I love the i6,but can't really see a v6 hurting FoOfAus too much,it didn't hurt nissan with the new skyline.

[chich]

a) The supposed lack of torque produced can be addressed by increasing displacement. Manufacturers design global engines these days and are simply tailored for each individual market - Ford engines are/will be no different. Just because the North American engine displaces 3.7L, it doesn't automatically mean that is whats being considered for the Falcon.

b) Since when did the Falcon I6 become the epitome of smoothness & refinement? Most I6 Falcons i've driven (and i've driven a fair few of them) don't idle properly, feel rough at high rpm and sound like absolute crap. Theorectically an I6 engine is perfectly balanced... the Falcon's I6 is anything but. If you want to experience a smooth & refined I6 engine go drive a BMW (especially the M models). If you want to compare it to something a little closer to home have a drive of the Duratec V6 found in the ST24. Both engines are as smooth as silk and leave the Falcons I6 engine for dead.

c) Every prestige manufacturer with the exception of BMW have been producing V6's for a number of years. If its good enough for the likes of Mercedes & Lexus who are renouned for luxury, smoothness & refinement, then i'm sure it can't be all that bad.

d) Think about the potential packaging, handling & safety benefits a V6 offers as opposed to the massive lump of ancient I6. If a move to a V6 engine gives crash engineers the opportunity to make the Falcon safer without breaking the bank, then it's well worth it. I know BMW can engineer an I6 powered 5-star rated car but their volumes - and hence budgets - are much greater.

e) Finally, and most importantly, if you're a real enthusiast you'd be buying a V8, not worrying about what 6 cylinder will be fitted to a fleet pack, run-of-the-mill, loose 70% of its value in 3 years Falcon.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

I would argue that the other way.I think the v6 has long been used as a marketing tool against ford by holden and toyota.The majority of the general public assume the v6 is better because that's what gm/toyota/mitsu have told them.When was the last ford add you saw boasting about the power of the n/a i6?Toyotas aurion add seems to be on every channel every 5 minutes screaming about being the most powerfull n/a 6 in oz.Did I mention it was a v6,'cause they do?

Ask anyone who isn't an enthusiest what is better,they will tell you a v6.

I love the i6,but can't really see a v6 hurting FoOfAus too much,it didn't hurt nissan with the new skyline.

Precisely what I was saying... people are ignorant and most people think "a v6" is some sort of power house motor

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by chich

b) Since when did the Falcon I6 become the epitome of smoothness & refinement? Most I6 Falcons i've driven (and i've driven a fair few of them) don't idle properly, feel rough at high rpm and sound like absolute crap. Theorectically an I6 engine is perfectly balanced... the Falcon's I6 is anything but. If you want to experience a smooth & refined I6 engine go drive a BMW (especially the M models). If you want to compare it to something a little closer to home have a drive of the Duratec V6 found in the ST24. Both engines are as smooth as silk and leave the Falcons I6 engine for dead.

Err unless you have driven a brand-new out of the factory Falcon you can't comment on the engine - most of the I6 falcon motors that idle and sound like crap are like that because they weren't maintained properly...

[chich]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Err unless you have driven a brand-new out of the factory Falcon you can't comment on the engine - most of the I6 falcon motors that idle and sound like crap are like that because they weren't maintained properly...

Well in that case i can comment on the engine because i have driven one out of the box mated to a 6 speed ZF auto. I don't comment on things i don't know about..

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Err unless you have driven a brand-new out of the factory Falcon you can't comment on the engine - most of the I6 falcon motors that idle and sound like crap are like that because they weren't maintained properly...

Exactly, and comparing the venerable FORD AUS I6 to an M spec BMW is just utterly ludicrous and ridiculous.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by chich

If you want to compare it to something a little closer to home have a drive of the Duratec V6 found in the ST24. Both engines are as smooth as silk and leave the Falcons I6 engine for dead.

Im yet to drive the ST24, but have driven the ST220, holy hell it is good. But in a falcon body I think it will struggle.

Great for a mid size car though.

[chich]

Originally Posted by ESP

Exactly

see my post above.

Originally Posted by ESP

comparing the venerable FORD AUS I6 to an M spec BMW is just utterly ludicrous and ridiculous.

Not as ludicrous or rediculous as claiming that a properly engineered global V6 engine can't be as smooth or refined as a half-arsed Aussie I6..

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by chich

see my post above.



Not as ludicrous or rediculous as claiming that a properly engineered global V6 engine can't be as smooth or refined as a half-arsed Aussie I6..

Why is the aussie I6 half arsed.........??????? You sound overly disgruntled.

It has more torque than the rival TOYOTA or GM product, has excellent reliability and serviceability. Fuel economy with the A6 is well up there with its rivals, especially if you're gonna be lugging stuff around.

It may not be the best 6 cylinder engine currently doing the rounds, but it certainly isn't half arsed ?

[sleekism]

I have been reading this thread and absolutely ****ing myself with laughter!

Are people seriously comparin the Falcon to the Aurion????

Are people here preaching the superiority of the Aurion and the V6 actually driven the Toyota???

I was expecting big things when I first drove the new Aurion it looke big and boofy like an Australian car should but I was sadly mistaken. The Aurion is mismatched shitbox.

The motor revs cleanly and high but it does not work well in a large and heavy FWD car.
In a smaller 3 series sized RWD car it would work well but the Aurion is the result of tight *** Toyota and their half assed efforts. Has anybody tried to turn a corner in the Aurion? Has anybody read the latest Wheels comparo with the Aurion?

As for the criticism being levelled at the Barra and the Falcon in general I can simply not believe it! Are these people driving the same car??
The Barra 190's at work grunt like a V8 and rev like a Honda, even my old Fairmont revs quite well. That's the thing I love about the Barra it's ability to match a torquey bottom end to a devastating top end!

Quality problems with the Falcon?? I never saw a tow truck throughout my entire childhood and that including growing up around the supposedly bad XT and XE.

My experience with Fords is that the electronics might go crap but it will never leave you stranded.

I hate repeating mself like a bloody parrot but I don't see the big deal about Toyotas supposed quality. The new Aurions at work have already been back to the workshop a few times, as have the Holdens, the Mitsubishis and happily there has only been one incident with one of the Fords (yep some crappy little electronic locking problem).

The Falcon six is a brilliant engine and it would be stupid to replace it as I don't think Ford have anything to match it's stump pulling power in their catalogue.
And for the Toyota lovers get your hand off it the Aurion is nothing special at all it doesn't rev any better than my 91 SOHC Laser, it's actually proved to be thirstier than the Falcon and the fact that Toyota rollling in cash can only build a car 0.1 seconds faster than a last generation, RWD and heavier base model falcon is just sad.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by ESP

Why is the aussie I6 half arsed.........??????? You sound overly disgruntled.

It has more torque than the rival TOYOTA or GM product, has excellent reliability and serviceability. Fuel economy with the A6 is well up there with its rivals, especially if you're gonna be lugging stuff around.

It may not be the best 6 cylinder engine currently doing the rounds, but it certainly isn't half arsed ?

Keep in mind the market its made for, and hence its budget and it HAS to be one of the best engines in the world, dollar for dollar.

Its has all the tech, materials would be the next thing to upgrade IMO.

[Des]

Originally Posted by sleekism

And for the Toyota lovers get your hand off it the Aurion is nothing special at all it doesn't rev any better than my 91 SOHC Laser, it's actually proved to be thirstier than the Falcon and the fact that Toyota rollling in cash can only build a car 0.1 seconds faster than a last generation, RWD and heavier base model falcon is just sad.

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