Gay Marriage in Australia?

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Says who ?

All the people who do not believe in religion.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

Yes, but the Bible tells people to 'stop' sinning Being 'christian' isn't a license to do 'whatever' because all is forgiven.

On topic - agreed. If you have to call it something - then marriage isn't it. Marriage doesn't cover same sex relationships IMO.

and who on their final breathe dies perfect , no one .

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Wow. I am sorry but if people need to get their moral guidance from a book of fairy tales then they are a lost cause from the start. I have absolutely no belief in any existential being or god or whatever you want to call it, and my moral compass comes from myself alone via the influences of family and friends and life experience. Religion is in no way required for a thorough understanding of right and wrong.

Yes I know, I cringed at that one too.

I know in my experience I am not a believer in God but I have better morals than some of the believers in God that I have had in my life, including my step father who went to gaol for the crimes he did to me as a child.

Perhaps we can all take a bit more care with our wording, we are talking about peoples beliefs here and everyone is entitled to theirs without ridicule.

[arlester]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

In true meaning - "Marriage" is for man and woman.
"Adam and Eve" not "Adam and Steve" - sorry - had to slip that one in.

Without going into huge specifics.. The whole discussion stems from your world point of view.

IF you believe there is no God and we all evolved from microbial pond scum.. then same sex marriage isn't an issue. Anything goes; including all reason for morality, life purpose.. We would have no reason for living, other than to fulfill our own purpose and once we die - nothing. There's no point to life/or to live.

However..

If God does exist, and he created all things, then a lot of other things that people do (including gay relationships); are morally wrong (as defined by God ref: Bible). - my belief!

Our society's laws were originally based on judaeo-christian ethics; which is Biblical ethics and morality.

Yes, heterosexual marriages have problems and fail. I would see that as a failing of the 'person' not the institution of marriage. Can a man and man or a woman and a woman have children naturally - negative ghostrider!

+1 against.

OK then so by the bible it is morally wrong to love another man. I know a few christians who are gay. What does that make them? Like I mentioned in previous it is not something we can help. I mean being realistic what person would want to make their life harder by choosing to be gay?

[mcnews]

It seriously can't be a choice, has to be programmed in.
I mean being gay would be a serious pain in the a#$e, literally, lol. Jokes people, lighten up!

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Wow. I am sorry but if people need to get their moral guidance from a book of fairy tales then they are a lost cause from the start. I have absolutely no belief in any existential being or god or whatever you want to call it, and my moral compass comes from myself alone via the influences of family and friends and life experience. Religion is in no way required for a thorough understanding of right and wrong.

LOL . i'm hearing you brother . but try a doctor telling you , get your family here now . if you've got what we think you have you may have 12 hours , or your next breathe left . TRUST ME , you may suddenly wonder what its all about then and change your view hehehehe , just wait . we'll all get the chance LOL .

[GT0132]

Why on Earth would gay couples want to get married when marriage is really nothing more than a piece of paper anyway??

Marriage hasn't worked in the hetrosexual world with over 50% of first marriages failing and even worse for 2nd marriages. I've done it twice and "may" be persuaded to do it a 3rd time but, if not, happy to live the rest of my life in a de facto. I don't get the hype but if they want it let them have it.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

If God does exist, and he created all things, then a lot of other things that people do (including gay relationships); are morally wrong (as defined by God ref: Bible). - my belief!

And you could also argue that if God made man then why did he make some homosexuals.

I vote for leaving them alone and letting them do what they want, including marriage. It affects me not one bit if they get married.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by arlester

OK then so by the bible it is morally wrong to love another man. I know a few christians who are gay. What does that make them? Like I mentioned in previous it is not something we can help. I mean being realistic what person would want to make their life harder by choosing to be gay?

Christians who are continuing to sin ..

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by mcnews

It seriously can't be a choice, has to be programmed in.
I mean being gay would be a serious pain in the a#$e, literally, lol. Jokes people, lighten up!

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by arlester

.......After telling a few people word finally got back to him about it. Now I work in car sales and was dealing with some customers. While those customers were talking to my business manager I got a phone call. Which started with:
Dad: I've heard a rumour
Me: Was is that (Knowing full well what was coming).
Dad: Your a poofter. Don't bother coming home tonight you'll just get kicked out.

Ever since then I have not spoken to him. I love him with all my heart but he doesn't want a bar of it. .......

That sucks mate. Pretty cruel reaction from your father.
I don't agree with Gay marriage but I understand it must be pretty tough to be Gay sometimes.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Wow. I am sorry but if people need to get their moral guidance from a book of fairy tales then they are a lost cause from the start. I have absolutely no belief in any existential being or god or whatever you want to call it, and my moral compass comes from myself alone via the influences of family and friends and life experience. Religion is in no way required for a thorough understanding of right and wrong.

Again - it all depends on your belief.

You believe the Bible is a book of fairytales and that determines your interpretation of it.

I believe that the bible is truth and a moral compass for all mankind.

As I said in my post; it is your worldview that determines your opinion and decisions on topics such as these.

[mcnews]

Another way of putting it; is how open your world view is, or how narrow and jacketed your world view is...

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

and who on their final breathe dies perfect , no one .

Agreed We are all sinners; but if homosexuality is obviously a sin according to the Bible (yes I keep coming back to that because it is pivotal), and the Bible encourages us to stop sinning - then reasonably, we have to be at least making the effort 'not' to.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

Christians who are continuing to sin ..

THATS A HARD TOPIC . i think with/or without religion , people know whats right and whats wrong , GUILTY feelings show us . lots of people want to stop feeling guilty , there is only one way not to , but many fail , this is in everything wrong .
that's what i thin k anyway . it is said that we all know right from wrong .

[FreddyDUZ747]

Go the POLL!

I thought marraige was between two consenting adults?

It seems to be the way you are brought up or the people one hangs around with influences their decisions.I guess we cant hold this against them.

A little more empathy wouldnt go astray though from this group though,having an opinion is fine but being an **** in the process in not.

[hamoudy10]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

In true meaning - "Marriage" is for man and woman.
"Adam and Eve" not "Adam and Steve" - sorry - had to slip that one in.

Without going into huge specifics.. The whole discussion stems from your world point of view.

IF you believe there is no God and we all evolved from microbial pond scum.. then same sex marriage isn't an issue. Anything goes; including all reason for morality, life purpose.. We would have no reason for living, other than to fulfill our own purpose and once we die - nothing. There's no point to life/or to live.

However..

If God does exist, and he created all things, then a lot of other things that people do (including gay relationships); are morally wrong (as defined by God ref: Bible). - my belief!

Our society's laws were originally based on judaeo-christian ethics; which is Biblical ethics and morality.

Yes, heterosexual marriages have problems and fail. I would see that as a failing of the 'person' not the institution of marriage. Can a man and man or a woman and a woman have children naturally - negative ghostrider!

+1 against.

Disagree. If God wanted us to follow exactly what was written in the various religious books (Qur'an, Bible, Torah etc), then why were we given a brain? God has given us the choice to follow our interpretation of what being moral and what the "right" thing is.

Religion is all bull, a way of slotting people into society based on their actions, beliefs and morals. Real piety is where someone does certain things in order to improve their relationship (or whatever you call it) with God (or what ever else they believe in) for their own satisfaction, and not to show that they are following a certain faith blindly.

Example: I am a Muslim. I abide by the 5 pillars (my interpretation of them) because for me it is the right thing to do. Not because I have to do it. Now I don't walk around with a massive beard and a shaved head with my wife walking 10 metres behind me in a black scarf from head to toe, because that has absolutely no place in modern society.

If you have a clean heart, have a true belief and aren't dodgy (lying, stealing etc), that is the real definition of faith.

Now what i'm trying to say is, being gay or whatever else you want to be doesn't stop you from being able to have a firm belief in God or the flying spaghetti monster. The amount of people that follow words in a book blindly surprises me.

There is a place for a union between any couple (human! ) in today's society, and having equal legal rights for all.

[Lotte]

I have two mates, who are lesbians living together. One is a student, one works fulltime. Because they are in a relationship, the fulltime workers income affects the students Centrelink benefit.
If we (meaning the government), wants to acknowledge the relationship in that way, they should AT LEAST be allowed to have a bit of paper saying *at least* civil union.

IMO, marriage is an outdated concept, I can see the only reason me and my other half to get married would be if we were planning on having kids (it helps with his rights to access if it went pear shaped, and there's still the social convention that you *should* be married if you pro create).
I'd rather be handfasted (as per MY religious beliefs), and scrap the whole legality stuff, it means more to me, and more to my boyfriend as well.

Those who are spouting that marriage is a Christian thing, therefore should be limited to only men and women (according to the bible, which also dictates to be accepting of others, how about that), should look closely at the rest of the worlds major religious sects and see that marriage and eternal bonding is a universal thing, and common in cultures where there is NOTHING WRONG with homosexuality.

Even my 90 yr old nan, who is hard core Christian is starting to accept the gay community, why can't people half, or even a quarter of her age do the same? For the record, she's all for them tying the knot.

[hamoudy10]

Originally Posted by lilmattie

Agreed We are all sinners; but if homosexuality is obviously a sin according to the Bible (yes I keep coming back to that because it is pivotal), and the Bible encourages us to stop sinning - then reasonably, we have to be at least making the effort 'not' to.

But you say Jesus' death makes up for all your sins, so why do you care?

[FreddyDUZ747]

Excellent moderation on this topic too.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by hamoudy10

Disagree. If God wanted us to follow exactly what was written in the various religious books (Qur'an, Bible, Torah etc), then why were we given a brain? God has given us the choice to follow our interpretation of what being moral and what the "right" thing is.

Religion is all bull, a way of slotting people into society based on their actions, beliefs and morals. Real piety is where someone does certain things in order to improve their relationship (or whatever you call it) with God (or what ever else they believe in) for their own satisfaction, and not to show that they are following a certain faith blindly.

Example: I am a Muslim. I abide by the 5 pillars (my interpretation of them) because for me it is the right thing to do. Not because I have to do it. Now I don't walk around with a massive beard and a shaved head with my wife walking 10 metres behind me in a black scarf from head to toe, because that has absolutely no place in modern society.

If you have a clean heart, have a true belief and aren't dodgy (lying, stealing etc), that is the real definition of faith.

Now what i'm trying to say is, being gay or whatever else you want to be doesn't stop you from being able to have a firm belief in God or the flying spaghetti monster. The amount of people that follow words in a book blindly surprises me.

There is a place for a union between any couple (human! ) in today's society, and having equal legal rights for all.

We're getting offtopic. Again - you a different world view.

And what you believe, influences your life. You choose to believe your interpretations. I choose to believe the Bible. Each to their own, but I also think that one day we will find out for certain what the real 'truth' is.

I agree. "Religion" is stupid. But then I'm religious about cleaning my teeth everyday, so it's not that bad..

and I agree. Being gay doesn't mean you can't have firm beliefs in a God or whatever. I was just stating what the Bible says, and that I believe it. Not blindly as you say. If you believe something is truth - then you believe it. If not - you don't. It's pretty simple.


Back on topic..

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by hamoudy10

But you say Jesus' death makes up for all your sins, so why do you care?

what he is saying is realiasation of wrong doing is what matters , moreso than actually doing right . doing right is the only way , but we cant always do it . those who0 acknowledge jesus in this way will be cleansed .
look at the alternative we would all perish if the only way to get to heaven was to do right all your life , you simply cant , and you have to be sorry for your thoughts and your actions .
what do muslims believe ?
isnt mohumad , the profit of war ( by the sword) ? dont be offended , just asking .

[mcnews]

The bible is truth, fair enough.
This site would make great reading for you to live by.
http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by hamoudy10

But you say Jesus' death makes up for all your sins, so why do you care?

Mods - I'm responding to a question posed:

Because I believe (because the Bible says so) that anyone who does not accept Jesus as the saviour of their life is going to hell.

Topic:
Because I also agree with previous posters that marriage is a union of man and woman - which doesn't allow for same sex couples. It's a personal belief. It doesn't affect me directly, except that it takes away a special institution that is reserved for man and woman.

[hamoudy10]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

what he is saying is realiasation of wrong doing is what matters , moreso than actually doing right . doing right is the only way , but we cant always do it . those who0 acknowledge jesus in this way will be cleansed .
look at the alternative we would all perish if the only way to get to heaven was to do right all your life , you simply cant , and you have to be sorry for your thoughts and your actions .
what do muslims believe ?
isnt mohumad , the profit of war ( by the sword) ? dont be offended , just asking .

I understand, I was kidding lol.
No offence taken. Muhammad was a prophet who we believe was the person who we should emulate in our everyday lives. So was Jesus, Abraham, Jonah, Jacob etc. Not a war prophet. The beliefs between Christians, Jews and Muslims are all very similar with just a few differences. Anyway too off topic.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Says who ?

I posted the source, the Constitution of Australia. The church has no role to play in making or maintaining law. It hasnt for quite some time. Thats not to say it hasnt been discussed or used as argument, but its wrong when it is a significant part of the decision.

Thats one major difference between us and Iran. Theology based legal systems are awful things, both historical (The Inquisition for example, or the Crusades) and current examples (Iran etc) prove that without need for further input on the matter.

But if that dont float your boat, the Australian Constitution says religion should have no part in the make up of Australias laws, which includes Marriage laws. By allowing a religious interpretation of an aspect of life to effect the laws of the land, the Commonwealth is in essence legislating a religious doctrine. Allowing gay people to marry in no way effects any church, unless it was dictated in law that said church must house and sanction the marriage. However, there is no such need, a marriage can be held in a park, or a Registry Office or even at Mardi Gras. No religion is required, simply an authorised and officially sanctioned offical to carry out and seal the marriage in LAW. All the while using a religious understanding of what denotes an acceptable marriage does effect people who have nothing at all to do with said religion. Seems obvious that the church has nothing other than those thoughts based in its own beliefs to fear from gay people being married, but no actual effect, while a group of Australias citizens have much to suffer from actions and thoughts of people who have no genuine interest in the subject other than personal opinion. This isnt about a church marriage, or your marriage or your parents marriage, its about the marriage of consenting adults who just happen to be of the same sex.

Gay people being married in no meaningful way effects the straight, or any existing or future marriage. The word marriage does not belong to religions, it belongs to people. and there is no logical reason to deny gay and lesbian couples the right to be married.

Just as I have no right to deny them their right to drive Holdens, or Fords.

[Mark^^]

Originally Posted by GT0132

Why on Earth would gay couples want to get married when marriage is really nothing more than a piece of paper anyway??

It is significantly more complex than having a marriage certificate, it’s what the certificate means in both law and society. If a partner is in hospital, for a married couple the spouse is recognised as legal guardian, in a gay de-facto couple, it’s the sick person’s family who makes the decisions, and they may have been estranged from many years. I saw this many times in hospitals during the AIDS crisis in mid to late 80's.

There used to be many other issues such as inheritance and supper after death but these have been overcome with legislation over the last three years.

The right for social and legal justice for gay and lesbian people has its beginnings in the Stonewall riots in 1969. I have been out as a gay man for many years and have been involved in striving for social justice and equity for most of that time. I have seen gay men bashed and locked up for walking down the streets holding hands. I have seen sick guys in hospital slowly die alone and isolated because their family and society rejected them. I participated in the Mardi Gras protests when they were protests and not the glamor event of later yearsand have felt the impact of police batons.

The fight for social justice amongst minority groups is always difficult and for gay and lesbian people most of the legal impediments to legal equality have been achieved in Australia, however some still see a need to gain full social equality through relationship recognition called ‘marriage’. Issues about how successful gay and lesbian marriages will or won’t be is not at issues, it’s the right to be granted that legal status.

For me when all the legislation was changed in the last few years and most discrimination was removed from statutes was enough. I chose a celibate life (through my catholic experience) and so I don’t see myself qualified to argue for gay marriage, to me the issue is just not important.

[Chopped]

fairy tales, sky fairies, flying spaghetti monster........really !

Religious people take offence at these remarks......mods do not care it seems.

Just don't offend the gay people by the looks of things.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by mcnews

The bible is truth, fair enough.
This site would make great reading for you to live by.
http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

Offtopic - responding again.

Every verse listed there is taken out of context. You have to read the whole section to get the 'why'. As with anything..

Eg. There's a verse in the bible that says "Judas hung himself"
I can take another that says "Go now and do likewise".

[Whitey-AMG]

Great topic.......good to see it going with some healthy discussion

My only contribution to this is how does it affect our kids..........what effect do we want this to have on our kids - young or old ?

We may very well be able to dicuss this as adults , from an adults perspective with adult tolerances and have a great moderated discussion........however - decisions like these affect all of society and more often than not its the younger generations that are left to deal with our decisions.

I really do feel for those couples that are striving for equal rights....its important to them and they live in a democracy where they have the right to placate their concerns and their lifestyles. Ia lso feel for the younger generation who may be confused and bewildered at the sight of same sex couples - we as parents need to be equipped to be able to deal with the cultural change correctly if it is going to be successful. This is more than just aknowledging the rights of a minority group......its also about managing the rights of the majority groups as well........?

I'm not against it............but I am concerned about how such changes are cultured and eductaed to our kids so that it is done correctly with some thought on both sides.

Apologies in advance If I have offended anyone.........it iwas not my intent.