Lincoln considering performance line

[FPV]

Opportunity for FOA and FPV?

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/02/l...formance-line/

The Boss 315/335 would be an ideal engine for Lincoln and a point of difference from the supercharged 5.4 in the GT500.

[Road_Warrior]

I'm thinking a souped up SHO. FoA and FPV couldn't be lucky enough to get this sort of gig and the features the base car (Falcon) has simply won't cut it for a Lincoln - especially a hi-po one.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I'm thinking a souped up SHO. FoA and FPV couldn't be lucky enough to get this sort of gig and the features the base car (Falcon) has simply won't cut it for a Lincoln - especially a hi-po one.

No, but this is where "One Ford" comes into play. Say, hypothetically that Falcon actually does survive into another generation. Falcon, in Australia enters a new era as an I4T, V6/T and V8 prospect, with full RHD/LHD engineering. Ford Australia builds Falcons from Australia, with a shared platform, that Mustang, and Lincoln Continental are based on, as well. Falcon has an Australian Top Hat, but the underpinnings, such as suspension, electronics, engines and transmissions are shared across the RWD architecture. I think, there is scope in Ford's range for a Lincoln Continental type car, especially now that the Town Car is dead.

Falcon, today, as it stands is an Australian car. If it wants to go global, it will need some serious dollars spent on it. The basic platform is fantastic, however, comparing it to, say a 5-Series, it is a bit backwards. For it to work as a Lincoln, the I6 will need to die, so more money can be spent on it. One benefit of Lincoln working on a RWD car, is that Fairlane may be able to return, without the mass outlay that it would have required last time.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Paxton

No, but this is where "One Ford" comes into play. Say, hypothetically that Falcon actually does survive into another generation. Falcon, in Australia enters a new era as an I4T, V6/T and V8 prospect, with full RHD/LHD engineering. Ford Australia builds Falcons from Australia, with a shared platform, that Mustang, and Lincoln Continental are based on, as well. Falcon has an Australian Top Hat, but the underpinnings, such as suspension, electronics, engines and transmissions are shared across the RWD architecture. I think, there is scope in Ford's range for a Lincoln Continental type car, especially now that the Town Car is dead.

Falcon, today, as it stands is an Australian car. If it wants to go global, it will need some serious dollars spent on it. The basic platform is fantastic, however, comparing it to, say a 5-Series, it is a bit backwards. For it to work as a Lincoln, the I6 will need to die, so more money can be spent on it. One benefit of Lincoln working on a RWD car, is that Fairlane may be able to return, without the mass outlay that it would have required last time.

Problem with all that is, with the Falcon's market share (of the overall market) shrinking rapidly and the E segment dying the death of a thousand cuts, there is less and less chance of a next generation RWD-based Falcon being built here - even if it is platform shared with the Mustang, T-bird and some sort of Lincoln. The numbers simply won't be there to make production viable.

My thoughts are along the lines of what wescoent outlined a while back - CD4 cars made here with RWD performance and luxury cars imported to fill the void left by the last Aussie Falcon.

Then again, you could be right...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Paxton

No, but this is where "One Ford" comes into play. Say, hypothetically that Falcon actually does survive into another generation. Falcon, in Australia enters a new era as an I4T, V6/T and V8 prospect, with full RHD/LHD engineering. Ford Australia builds Falcons from Australia, with a shared platform, that Mustang, and Lincoln Continental are based on, as well. Falcon has an Australian Top Hat, but the underpinnings, such as suspension, electronics, engines and transmissions are shared across the RWD architecture. I think, there is scope in Ford's range for a Lincoln Continental type car, especially now that the Town Car is dead.

Falcon, today, as it stands is an Australian car. If it wants to go global, it will need some serious dollars spent on it. The basic platform is fantastic, however, comparing it to, say a 5-Series, it is a bit backwards. For it to work as a Lincoln, the I6 will need to die, so more money can be spent on it. One benefit of Lincoln working on a RWD car, is that Fairlane may be able to return, without the mass outlay that it would have required last time.

This to me is the only real option (give or take a few details). Yes it takes investment but we are talking about a huge number of cars once a process like this is established.

Ive always thought it odd that Ford/FPV have made the Miami on the promise of such little volume...

Taurus/Mondeo et al can all be done better and cheaper elsewhere and FoA's point of difference is the RWD.

If not, then thats it IMO, FoA will become a PD hub; other than Aussie job losses I dont have a huge issue with that either.

[Airmon]

I fail to see how this could be an opportunity for FoA or FPV?

Lincoln already have a AWD Sedan with ~260kw and a dual clutch auto.
Im sure they could go to a RWD 5.0lt S/C without FoA's help. And if it ever got Sold here it wouldn't be in FPV or Ford form.

I highly doubt a re-badges GT is going to cut it for Lincoln buyers. Despite the similarity in size, in terms of quality and equipment it would be easier to upgrade the current lincolns then convert and upgrade the Falcon.

[chevypower]

This could be good. I expect it will happen. I hope Mustang keeps a solid axle, a Lincoln coupe on the same platform could have IRS. I would imagine that Lincolns will have AWD, but the Mustang will not. Remember that Lincoln is about technology now, and you are more likely to see EcoBoost and AWD more prevalent than you will see V8 RWD.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Airmon

I fail to see how this could be an opportunity for FoA or FPV?

Lincoln already have a AWD Sedan with ~260kw and a dual clutch auto.
Im sure they could go to a RWD 5.0lt S/C without FoA's help. And if it ever got Sold here it wouldn't be in FPV or Ford form.

I highly doubt a re-badges GT is going to cut it for Lincoln buyers. Despite the similarity in size, in terms of quality and equipment it would be easier to upgrade the current lincolns then convert and upgrade the Falcon.

I agree with the words in principle.

however
Lincoln have a stated goal to differentiate from Ford, and to include performance as well as luxury.
In the first they have all but ruled out even a top hat on an existing US Ford product (they want different Tech, and driveline)

If that is Lincoln's starting position, then they are either going for a ground up new car (technology sharing), or base it on something not available in the US Ford lineup.
Given that Jag and Volvo are not available to be used to fill that void what would you do ?

I would think that a Falcon/Lincoln merged product line is exactly what they want.

Take the humble falcon as a base, and merge the platforms to give a Lincoln and post FGII Falcon (a despec'd version of the Lincoln). an LWB version for Lincoln would almost certainly be necessary.
Design would be a global effort, with manufacture in Asia (likely including AU) and US and Europe.
In Australia the XT may continue as a "Stripper" or possibly be dropped in favour of the Mondeo, leaving the new Falcon as Fairmont/XR and above, and then introduce the US LWB into Au as a Lincoln, or a Ford xxx (where xxx is the the same as the Lincoln model name)
The Lincoln would be a Longitudinal AWD (like Audi), the Au Ford could be both RWD and AWD.

A similar approach could be used on Mustang, and Territory.

I would imagine that this is the cheapest and most realistic way for Lincoln to reach their goals before the current lineup ages too much.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/12/r...sheetmetal-po/

Do I think Ford WILL do this ? - that is a different question - this is what they (IMHO) SHOULD do.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Airmon

I fail to see how this could be an opportunity for FoA or FPV?

Lincoln already have a AWD Sedan with ~260kw and a dual clutch auto.
Im sure they could go to a RWD 5.0lt S/C without FoA's help. And if it ever got Sold here it wouldn't be in FPV or Ford form.

I highly doubt a re-badges GT is going to cut it for Lincoln buyers. Despite the similarity in size, in terms of quality and equipment it would be easier to upgrade the current lincolns then convert and upgrade the Falcon.

Cheaper to put more electric toys into the E8 than to get a CD4 platform to sing and dance like BMW 3.

[Road_Warrior]

Problem with the E8 is that it doesnt have the refinement and NVH required for a full-on high spec luxury application like Lincoln. If it is to fly with the likes of Audi, BWM, Cadillac, Lexus et al those things will need work. They will need to ditch the control blade IRS for starters, and run with something that can handle the power AND deliver the required refinement AND not crap bushes every 5 seconds. A double wishbone IRS with forged alloy control arms would be a nice start. Add airbag suspension controlled by the car's ECU and you're halfway there because the front end is already sorted.

[jpd80]

I'm curious, back when Marin Burela was CEO the factory order books were full several months ahead
but since his departure, everything seems to be turning to crap, I really wonder why...
Is Ford now building cars they think people will buy without actually taking many dealer orders?

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm curious, back when Marin Burela was CEO the factory order books were full several months ahead
but since his departure, everything seems to be turning to crap, I really wonder why...
Is Ford now building cars they think people will buy without actually taking many dealer orders?

It started turning to crap before Burela left. It is only now that the full force of that crappiness is being felt. Don't forget that when Burela was around, there were Wagons and LPG Falcons running down the line. Without these, Ford is missing roughly a third of its production run.

[Bossxr8]

I think Ford would rather build a new platform from scratch for Lincoln rather than use E8 simply due to the not made here syndrome. They keep saying One Ford, but only if it suits them, stiff *** to anyone else.

Hence Mustang and F series stay on their own, and Ford US rejects Ranger, Falcon etc.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm curious, back when Marin Burela was CEO the factory order books were full several months ahead but since his departure, everything seems to be turning to crap, I really wonder why...
Is Ford now building cars they think people will buy without actually taking many dealer orders?

Mr Burela was also good at spinning fairy tales, like the "rich model mix" and "more private sales" claims that he made (the latter of which I believe you yourself debunked with raw sales stats).

It may well have been turning to poo long before he left. I would like to see (or get an idea of) FoA's Strategic Plan that Bill Osborne stated that he wanted to implement.

[phillyc]

Back OT and whether this could be good for FoA / FPV.

I would say yes. Lincoln have already stated they don't want to do 'just rebadges' anymore. They want to move up. Good on them.

FPV can offer a highly developed Coyote based Miami engine that would be fit for a Jaguary / Benz / Lincoln. The $40m spend for the projected Falcon volumes just don't add up. Not at 2,000 annual for 5 years.

Ford have with the Territory introduced new longitudinal AWD architecture to the Ford empire where the driveshaft / front axle assembly is fitted / passes through the engine sump.

Ford debuted EPAS on a locally built model with SZ Territory and integrated the key componentry and made it lighter, yet added the additional bolted connection to the body for better feel and more rigidity.

Further with the Territory, the systems designed to keep the diesel engine noise out of the cabin and contained within the engine bay have proven so effective that it is quieter than Land Rover & BMW X5 diesel models. What a fantastic result and at the driveline lauunch it was talked about how that knowledge will be shared across the Ford global empire. Diesel is hugely important to European markets. A key plank if Lincoln is to go 'Global'.

FG Falcon introduced newer drop forged alloy front hubs, modelled off SX-SY Territory but further evolved and with a somehwat AWD convenient looking hole in them too.

AU Falcon had a ripper IRS. Make it dropped forged alloy and redesign the mounts and there is a huge chunk of the weight penalty gone. Having closely looked at my AU IRS a large portion of weight was in the mounting arms to reach the regular non irs chassis pickup points. With a dedicated mid-rear section of floorplan, that would no longer be an issue either. Simply, the double wishbone AU IRS was brilliant. It would be gobsmacking in alloy and capable of huge power operation on a long term basis.

If Mustang was still to stay live axle, that could keep its own mid-rear section, which might help with headroom in a coupe!

Doors are very expensive to design and FG Falcon would have some of the best technology in them in the Ford world. It was said so at the time that they were the most advanced. They used alot of Volvo tech / knowledge and the supercomputing of Ford US. The result is a narrow sectional door width while incorporating some great sealing technology and most importantly with terrific strength and crash protection properties.

How much of the FG platform gets used is unknown. But it is 5star ANCAP and got that score with just 2 airbags less than any other car. The structure is a good one.

Ford US can provide all the other engines. ie Coyote V8, Duratec V6, EcoBoost V6T & I4T.
Ford Europe can provide the diesels.

Ford US can provide much of the electrical systems. They have some great systems & tech.

Everyone can collaborate on the various Top Hats. ie Europe, Australia & US.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Add airbag suspension controlled by the car's ECU and you're halfway there because the front end is already sorted.

But did they?

What they undoubtedly did was get a better position for the steering rack and increase parts commonality between Territory. But is the geometry etc actually better?

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I think Ford would rather build a new platform from scratch for Lincoln rather than use E8 simply due to the not made here syndrome. They keep saying One Ford, but only if it suits them, stiff *** to anyone else.

Hence Mustang and F series stay on their own, and Ford US rejects Ranger, Falcon etc.

I don't think it is that simple. I'm sure Ford US was heavily involved in the development of the Ranger, it's not like they are just "rejecting" it, saying it isn't good enough. It is going to take a long time to consolidate the products.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

But did they?

What they undoubtedly did was get a better position for the steering rack and increase parts commonality between Territory. But is the geometry etc actually better?

Well moving to a Territory-style virtual forward pivot system with those drop forged control arms necessitated a total redesign of the front end from the B series which IMO is a good thing. The B series has a little bit of a nervous feel to it at high speeds which the FG does not have. It is only being pushed to the limit does the FG show some flaws which I would imagine can be easily rectified with some additional investment.

[max_torq]

Originally Posted by phillyc

AU Falcon had a ripper IRS. Make it dropped forged alloy and redesign the mounts and there is a huge chunk of the weight penalty gone. Having closely looked at my AU IRS a large portion of weight was in the mounting arms to reach the regular non irs chassis pickup points. With a dedicated mid-rear section of floorplan, that would no longer be an issue either. Simply, the double wishbone AU IRS was brilliant. It would be gobsmacking in alloy and capable of huge power operation on a long term basis.

If you want the AU IRS in alloy just look under a Lincoln LS, or a Jaguar type-S...

[aussie muscle]

Will FPV rename itself to Lincoln?

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

Will FPV rename itself to Lincoln?

I am Guessing Not - as Prodrive have a significant share.

[Poetic Justice]

It's disappointing that FPV/FordAU can't have a helping hand in the Lincoln performance sector. You would think that if GM were doing something similar that Holden would get a look in.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by max_torq

If you want the AU IRS in alloy just look under a Lincoln LS, or a Jaguar type-S...

You mean DEW98?

[max_torq]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

You mean DEW98?

yeah, the AU suspension was an IRS designed from components in the global parts bin. DEW98 was too expensive for ford, so later systems were simpler. The unibody falcon is a car from the cheap end of the spectrum, at least as far as the US market is concerned. Lincoln ride standards require more than a Falcon can deliver. The Lincoln LS was a performance car, possibly intended to be the next mustang, and yet considerably refined compared to the AU. I just don't think the falcon has the quality expected by lincoln buyers.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by max_torq

yeah, the AU suspension was an IRS designed from components in the global parts bin. DEW98 was too expensive for ford, so later systems were simpler. The unibody falcon is a car from the cheap end of the spectrum, at least as far as the US market is concerned. Lincoln ride standards require more than a Falcon can deliver. The Lincoln LS was a performance car, possibly intended to be the next mustang, and yet considerably refined compared to the AU. I just don't think the falcon has the quality expected by lincoln buyers.

It seems to be more related to the way in which hardware and hardpoints are attached to the unitary body with Falcon v Lincoln? I.e. having the IRS bolted directly to the unibody instead of being attached to a subframe which then attaches to the unibody. However this method has been done away with it seems because the Lincolns on the market now are rebranded and rebodied Fords that are the same underneath, just with some technical and equipment changes.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by max_torq

I just don't think the falcon has the quality expected by lincoln buyers.

Agreed. Probably not. The VE Commodore isn't considered good enough for Cadillac. So the FG is probably not likely to be considered good enough for Lincoln.

It doesn't mean that with some additional coin that Falcon couldn't be. Most are aware that the big ticket items are engines, gearboxes, suspensions, doors, basic platform architecture and electronics.

Kuzak et all have said that it is relatively 'cheap' to create different 'top-hats' for the platforms. This is why the new Gen 3 global Focus will spawn 10 different body styles or top-hats from that one platform.

Think of the implications of 10 different tophats for GRWD.
* Lincoln performance sedan
* Lincoln performance 4 door coupe ala Audi A6 / MB CLS.
* Lincoln X5 competitor
* Lincoln LWB Town Car / Ford Fairlane
At the cheaper end
* Mustang
* Falcon sedan / 4 door coupe / wagon / utility
* Territory

[FPV GTHO]

I think the top hats generally still have alot of similarities in the floor. Pairing Mustang with anything else though will require a unique rear floor for the Mustang to get the rear seats low enough.

[EgoFG]

A unique rear is not a problem with a Platform Car.
Look at the Ute - still huge dev and build savings - but a unique rear.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

A unique rear is not a problem with a Platform Car.
Look at the Ute - still huge dev and build savings - but a unique rear.

Yes. This is something that I have raised before - modular platforms. This is what a Mustang-Falcon platform would need but Ford Australia have been designing them and building them for years...

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Paxton

No, but this is where "One Ford" comes into play. Say, hypothetically that Falcon actually does survive into another generation. Falcon, in Australia enters a new era as an I4T, V6/T and V8 prospect, with full RHD/LHD engineering. Ford Australia builds Falcons from Australia, with a shared platform, that Mustang, and Lincoln Continental are based on, as well. Falcon has an Australian Top Hat, but the underpinnings, such as suspension, electronics, engines and transmissions are shared across the RWD architecture. I think, there is scope in Ford's range for a Lincoln Continental type car, especially now that the Town Car is dead.

Falcon, today, as it stands is an Australian car. If it wants to go global, it will need some serious dollars spent on it. The basic platform is fantastic, however, comparing it to, say a 5-Series, it is a bit backwards. For it to work as a Lincoln, the I6 will need to die, so more money can be spent on it. One benefit of Lincoln working on a RWD car, is that Fairlane may be able to return, without the mass outlay that it would have required last time.

I have been of this opinion for quite some time. Now it seems some people are starting to share it.

Ford knows Lincoln needs something to distinguish itself. Falcon is the answer.