351 Windsor or 351 Cleveland

[Rev28K]

As a stock (or modified) 351, Clevo all the way.

[F6 R-Spec]

Depends where you are, what your bubget is and what you want out of it.

I love them all .

[xbgs351]

Good to see that nothing has changed on Australian Ford Forums. Some newbie asks a controversial question that has been asked before; the ill-informed jump on the bandwagon with their ill-informed opinions and a handful of knowledgeable people try and sort out the mess.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that a 351 Windsor (351W) is a different engine to the 302 Windsor (302W) that is most commonly found in Australia. The 351W is actually a Tall Deck Windsor, and there are a lot of differences between a 302W and a 351W. These include such things as a wider intake manifold, larger main journals and a different piston pin height


“What's the strong and weak points, what's the key differences and which ones are know to sound better”

Considering the 351C & 351W sold in Australia:


Heads

The 351C and 351W both have two basic sizes of heads being the 2V and 4V, with the 2V heads being the non-performance version 4V heads being the performance version. The 351C has canted valves, the 351W are all inline. The 351C 2V heads flow more than the 351W 4V heads. There is a good correlation between potential power/revability and head flow, so the 351C holds an advantage in this department. When it comes to making low down torque for moving a truck or towing, the tables are turned as the smaller ports in the 351W will be an advantage.

Crank
The 351W has a larger main journal diameter than the 351C. The upside of a large journal diameter is that it is stronger. The downside is that it makes the crank heavier, but more importantly it creates higher bearing speeds. High bearing speeds are not a problem if the engine doesn’t see high revs, but if it does the bearings/oil can quickly overheat. So as far as the crank goes, the 351C holds the advantage as far as potential power/revability and the 351W holds the advantage when being loaded up at low revs as one may see in a truck or when towing.

Oiling
The 351W has a superior oiling system but its heads can’t support the revs that may test it. The 351C’s oiling system isn’t as good, but won’t experience any oiling problems at the same revs either. The problem with the 351C is that its heads can support some pretty high revs that will severely test the oiling system. These kind of revs are not usually seen with a standard motor and it is very cheap and easy to modify a Cleveland’s oiling system in order to cope with the higher revs.

Dimensions/Weight
Not much difference here.

Inlet Manifold
The 351W runs coolant through the inlet manifold, but a 351C doesn’t. By not running coolant through the inlet manifold, the 351C has less design restrictions as far as where the runners can be located. It also stops the manifold from corroding away.

Aftermarket
All depends on what you are trying to do. A lot of the 351C OEM stuff is as good as 351C aftermarket stuff. If you are building a hot street motor, the 351C probably has the edge as far as performance goes, but the 351W has the edge as far as price goes. For full on racing the 351W has the advantage, but this may change with an aftermarket 351C block that is about to be released.

Sound
Which motor sounds better is purely in the ears of the beholder. They have the same firing order.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Good to see that nothing has changed on Australian Ford Forums. Some newbie asks a controversial question that has been asked before; the ill-informed jump on the bandwagon with their ill-informed opinions and a handful of knowledgeable people try and sort out the mess.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that a 351 Windsor (351W) is a different engine to the 302 Windsor (302W) that is most commonly found in Australia. The 351W is actually a Tall Deck Windsor, and there are a lot of differences between a 302W and a 351W. These include such things as a wider intake manifold, larger main journals and a different piston pin height


“What's the strong and weak points, what's the key differences and which ones are know to sound better”

Considering the 351C & 351W sold in Australia:


Heads

The 351C and 351W both have two basic sizes of heads being the 2V and 4V, with the 2V heads being the non-performance version 4V heads being the performance version. The 351C has canted valves, the 351W are all inline. The 351C 2V heads flow more than the 351W 4V heads. There is a good correlation between potential power/revability and head flow, so the 351C holds an advantage in this department. When it comes to making low down torque for moving a truck or towing, the tables are turned as the smaller ports in the 351W will be an advantage.

Crank
The 351W has a larger main journal diameter than the 351C. The upside of a large journal diameter is that it is stronger. The downside is that it makes the crank heavier, but more importantly it creates higher bearing speeds. High bearing speeds are not a problem if the engine doesn’t see high revs, but if it does the bearings/oil can quickly overheat. So as far as the crank goes, the 351C holds the advantage as far as potential power/revability and the 351W holds the advantage when being loaded up at low revs as one may see in a truck or when towing.

Oiling
The 351W has a superior oiling system but its heads can’t support the revs that may test it. The 351C’s oiling system isn’t as good, but won’t experience any oiling problems at the same revs either. The problem with the 351C is that its heads can support some pretty high revs that will severely test the oiling system. These kind of revs are not usually seen with a standard motor and it is very cheap and easy to modify a Cleveland’s oiling system in order to cope with the higher revs.

Dimensions/Weight
Not much difference here.

Inlet Manifold
The 351W runs coolant through the inlet manifold, but a 351C doesn’t. By not running coolant through the inlet manifold, the 351C has less design restrictions as far as where the runners can be located. It also stops the manifold from corroding away.

Aftermarket
All depends on what you are trying to do. A lot of the 351C OEM stuff is as good as 351C aftermarket stuff. If you are building a hot street motor, the 351C probably has the edge as far as performance goes, but the 351W has the edge as far as price goes. For full on racing the 351W has the advantage, but this may change with an aftermarket 351C block that is about to be released.

Sound
Which motor sounds better is purely in the ears of the beholder. They have the same firing order.

Good post, i'll just add 1 thing, i think you'll find 351W heads are all the same, there isnt a "2V" or "4V" version like with clevelands.

[|||]

windsor for fuel injection, clevo for carbs

[Casablanca]

i agree with 4VMAN as it is correct except for the valves lol the post underneath is correct in that instance other than that mate you hit the nail on the head everyone leave this sort of stuff to the people who know please otherwise itll just turn to another shitfight and get closed

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Good to see that nothing has changed on Australian Ford Forums. Some newbie asks a controversial question that has been asked before; the ill-informed jump on the bandwagon with their ill-informed opinions and a handful of knowledgeable people try and sort out the mess.

Don't step out into a strong breeze will ya.......

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The sheer level of aftermarket parts availability based on the 351W dessimates the Clevo in the US.
Most of my American friends call the 351C, "that Aussie engine," lol...

Quantity means nothing, quality is everything.
Every Windsor based combo that has won or placed well in the U.S engine masters test in the last 5 years has Aussie designed and manufactured Cleveland heads.

[Van D]

302 boss for me, windors bottom with CHI top. 351 i'd take a clevo.

Quasi - You can custom fit manifolds for the boss's if i'm not mistaken, or if you run a CHI setup, they have a manifold to match.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Steffo

It doesn't matter. Perhaps it does to some, and I for the life of me don't understand why...

Have you driven both?

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Good post, i'll just add 1 thing, i think you'll find 351W heads are all the same, there isnt a "2V" or "4V" version like with clevelands.

You are right. I did write the post offline with a splitting headache.

[mickyyyy]

I have a 347 windsor and sounds like a race engine but a clevo sounds more angry tuff. It has a unique sound but so does the windsor.

Honestly either way in non standard form eg 393 for both and made same power and similar cam spec they would both sound awsome and im sure you would not be 2 concened when ur frying the tyres and leaving marks up the street

[GRNKPR]

i have a 351 windsor in my track car and it has flogged a heap of clevo s but in saying this its combo and dollars
i have a 351 cleveland in a street car i havestill a very strong engine

to build a 351 cleveland is a lot cheaper than a 351 windsor and for a little more top end power its the clevo
so give me 1 of each as long as its got POWER+++++


AS LONG AS ITS NOT A CHEV !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[protd]

Originally Posted by MethodX

ill take a windsor.
Dont weigh a tonne and go well enough.

the weight difference is not even worth counting :

funny how people think the 351 windsor is heaps lighter than the 351 clevo

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by protd

the weight difference is not even worth counting :

funny how people think the 351 windsor is heaps lighter than the 351 clevo

Yes.. in fact a 351w block is actually physically bigger than a 351c block

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Van D

Have you driven both?

You don't drive engines. :P

No I've never driven a car powered by either a C or a W, haven't had the opportunity... but when talking aftermarket built engines its only comparable if they've each had the 'same,' things done to them in the same type of car. An engine is only as good as it was built to be, regardless of what it is.

[XW_GS]

well as said, either clevo or a winsdor block with the clevo heads...but then again the yanks are doing ok with ally headed windsors.

[Walkinshaw]

didnt the XR have a 289 not a 302

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

didnt the XR have a 289 not a 302

Yep, XT got the 302