HSV Confirms Dual Fuel...

[AWD Chaser]

http://www.hsvforum.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=5333

HSV has confirmed it will begin selling an LPG-powered version of its V8-powered performance cars from 2010.

Holden Special Vehicles will next year market an LPG-based dual fuel option for models in its high-performance range that owners haven’t asked for, and its dealers don’t want.

HSV admits that fuel economy does not rate in its customers’ top 10 concerns and managing director Phil Harding says HSV dealers have openly opposed the plan but that he was committed to doing it anyway.

“I’ve done a survey with my dealers and they’ve told me they don’t want it and I said ‘I don’t believe you’,” he says.

“So I’m doing this program without a solid customer demand for it. But I know that we started this program when petrol was $1.60 and heading north, and does anyone want to speculate that that won’t come back?

“My philosophy is that I’ve got to have that (LPG) in the cupboard. If we start off and people don’t option it, that’s fine, but there will come a point where they will.”

With the motoring world focusing on cleaner, greener cars and European performance rivals leading the charge to cut consumptions and emissions, Mr Harding admits HSV has no choice but to pursue an alternative fuels policy for its V8-based range of performance cars.

“We’re convinced it will become an issue and we’re trying to pre-empt that,” he says. “When fuel was $1.60 and companies were thinking that maybe they shouldn’t have V8s on their company car fleet, we felt we had to respond to that with some action.

“That’s the way this program started and I’ve come to love this program so much that I’ll do it anyway.”

HSV rejected diesel power in favour of an innovative LPG system, called liquid petroleum injection (LPI), which maximises the fuel’s power and economy benefits.

“We genuinely did look seriously at diesel,” he says. “We had an engineering prototype with a diesel engine in it, then it goes through a business case. Diesel fell over for investment and return, the LPI package didn’t.”

HSV still has E85 – an ethanol-rich blend of petrol – on its radar as a secondary alternative fuel strategy.

“That will come when people get more excited about that in terms of availability.”

For now though, HSV is focusing its energy on the LPI system.

“We have vehicles undergoing cold weather testing, we’ve got engines on test beds,” Mr Harding says.

The system will be offered as a cost option across all models in the HSV range except for its station wagon, the R8 Tourer. The LPG tank will be installed in the boot in sedans and in the tray for utes, and fully trimmed to eliminate its visibility.

“Where before you might get three golf bags into the boot of one of our cars, with the tank in there you’ll probably still fit two,” Mr Harding says.

“Because it’s dual fuel, when you floor the throttle it goes back to petrol. Those who have driven it can’t tell which mode it’s in, because it’s seamless.

“It will become accepted and one of the things I want to do is get rid of the taxi-type stigma with the cars.

“Why wouldn’t you take the car, because you’ll spend less on the fuel.”

[4Vman]

To be honest this program makes far more sense then AFM.... The BIGGEST mistake is not offering it on the R8 Touring hatch, which would be its biggest drawcard...

[Eu-GenixX]

The LPG tank would probably fill the entire load area in the Hatch... so therefore they're not offering it perhaps?

[ratter]

Still confused at HSV that apparantly offer top of the line product based on their brand and then do not take advantage of Liquid injection by trying to save a few dollars and using an inferior product.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ratter

Still confused at HSV that apparantly offer top of the line product based on their brand and then do not take advantage of Liquid injection by trying to save a few dollars and using an inferior product.

says a lot about the economy of liquid injection to me !!!

( ps; I'm not being sarcastic but i'm not hearing any good economy figures with direct liquid injection . vapour injection seems ok though -loses around 10% )

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ratter

Still confused at HSV that apparantly offer top of the line product based on their brand and then do not take advantage of Liquid injection by trying to save a few dollars and using an inferior product.

Which manufacturer, anywhere in the world, has delivered a liquid injection system on a production vehicle?

If these are only aftermarket conversions then there is a huge difference in plugging in a "farkle" and deploying a system that MUST last at least 100,000km and 3 years and should last 250,000km and 10 years.

It would be a VERY embarrassing and expensive situation if these direct injection systems went silly or failed completely after a year or two or 50,000km or in extreme heat like most of Australia or cold like Tassie or Canberra or in sustained wet like half of QLD, WA and NT.

If a company were to experiment with this new technology I suspect that the flagship product would probably not be the best place to start.

[snappy]

Good move i say , If there was a duel fuel option on my 8 when i bought it i would off ticked the box

[G6ET8U]

Who needs dual fuel...

My G6E Turbo is right on 11L per 100k's. Driving to and from work, Taylors Lakes to Campbellfield everyday (52k round trip) and using it on the weekends.

If I REALLY TRIED I reckon I could probably get it to 10.5l per 100k. But where is the fun in that? If I owned a HSV... if I really tried... maybe 13l per 100k? And my car in every respect is faster and better... and cheaper to insure.

HSV... I don't want one.

lol

[TUF_302]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Who needs dual fuel...

My G6E Turbo is right on 11L per 100k's. Driving to and from work, Taylors Lakes to Campbellfield everyday (52k round trip) and using it on the weekends.

If I REALLY TRIED I reckon I could probably get it to 10.5l per 100k. But where is the fun in that? If I owned a HSV... if I really tried... maybe 13l per 100k? And my car in every respect is faster and better... and cheaper to insure.

HSV... I don't want one.

lol

Everyone listen to this guy!!

[snappy]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Who needs dual fuel...

My G6E Turbo is right on 11L per 100k's. Driving to and from work, Taylors Lakes to Campbellfield everyday (52k round trip) and using it on the weekends.

If I REALLY TRIED I reckon I could probably get it to 10.5l per 100k. But where is the fun in that? If I owned a HSV... if I really tried... maybe 13l per 100k? And my car in every respect is faster and better... and cheaper to insure.

HSV... I don't want one.

lol

That's still $15 a day would you be annoyed if somone said the next one of these we build you can do that trip for $10.
I highly doubt it

[mr smith]

Just another thing to laugh at. Nothing says "try hard" like a modern performance car on LPG.

[G6ET8U]

Originally Posted by snappy84

That's still $15 a day would you be annoyed if somone said the next one of these we build you can do that trip for $10.
I highly doubt it

Of course I would... but where is that person? Company? Fully backed warranty? Will not lose any power or torque? Don't need special treatment when I get it serviced?

And that is on 98ron fuel too. I actually switched from BP to Mobil and don't flame me here but I was able to drop 0.3L per 100k's just from the fuel with me not having any honest input to it. Same driving, same trip. Go figure.

And for those that think I baby my car. I don't. I use the Melton Highway and Western Ring Road from 6.30am everyday. Don't start me on the Melton Highway at that time in the morning...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by snappy84

That's still $15 a day would you be annoyed if somone said the next one of these we build you can do that trip for $10.
I highly doubt it

Have you got a LPG powered calculator?

52km @ 11l/100km is 5.72 litres

I paid $1.32/litre for Ultimate 98 this morning so

$1.32 * 5.72 = $7.54

Round trip means there and back....

It is quite amusing all this talk of dual fuel "performance" vehicles that will save maybe $500 a year in a forum where almost everyone spends several thousand on a flash, exhaust and whatever and a $more on new wheels and funny sized tyres, stereo upgrades not to mention $1000 on stripes....

[snappy]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Of course I would... but where is that person? Company? Fully backed warranty? Will not lose any power or torque? Don't need special treatment when I get it serviced?

And that is on 98ron fuel too. I actually switched from BP to Mobil and don't flame me here but I was able to drop 0.3L per 100k's just from the fuel with me not having any honest input to it. Same driving, same trip. Go figure.

And for those that think I baby my car. I don't. I use the Melton Highway and Western Ring Road from 6.30am everyday. Don't start me on the Melton Highway at that time in the morning...

That company is hsv , yes it will most likely need special servicing but at a saving of $5 a day thats over $1500 for the year it will cover it .
An the power there when you need it .
Also for the record the liquid injection systems make more power and torque then petrol does .
I know this is the ford forums and when holden/hsv does something good it is bad for us . But somtimes you need to sit back and give credit when its due .

[snappy]

Originally Posted by flappist

Have you got a LPG powered calculator?

52km @ 11l/100km is 5.72 litres

I paid $1.32/litre for Ultimate 98 this morning so

$1.32 * 5.72 = $7.54

Round trip means there and back....

It is quite amusing all this talk of dual fuel "performance" vehicles that will save maybe $500 a year in a forum where almost everyone spends several thousand on a flash, exhaust and whatever and a $more on new wheels and funny sized tyres, stereo upgrades not to mention $1000 on stripes....

Sorry i missed the 52 round trip part now do the same calculation at
at 13lt/100 and 60cents a litre see which one comes up trumps.

How many people use full performance of the car all day , my ute is lucky if the loud pedal touches the floor once a month.

[G6ET8U]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Sorry i missed the 52 round trip part now do the same calculation at
at 13lt/100 and 60cents a litre see which one comes up trumps.

Now I am only playing... but the little red tag on the rego plate that makes me look like I can't afford to own my own car...

to me at least 20c per L...

lol


Only joking mate. I just won't own an LPG car. Sorry I am sure it has it's benefits all over the place. But my car was designed to run on liquid fuel, not liquid gas. If my car was designed to run on straight LPG then I would run straight LPG. It wasn't so I won't.

Dual Fuel is a compromise. One is a wet fuel and the other a dry fuel. They in an fuel sense are completely different in their relationship to an engine, the way it is built and the way it is designed.

I am not looking to start a fight on here at all. But if my engine/car was BUILT for LPG then I would run it. It isn't so I won't.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Now I am only playing... but the little red tag on the rego plate that makes me look like I can't afford to own my own car...

to me at least 20c per L...

lol


Only joking mate. I just won't own an LPG car. Sorry I am sure it has it's benefits all over the place. But my car was designed to run on liquid fuel, not liquid gas. If my car was designed to run on straight LPG then I would run straight LPG. It wasn't so I won't.

Dual Fuel is a compromise. One is a wet fuel and the other a dry fuel. They in an fuel sense are completely different in their relationship to an engine, the way it is built and the way it is designed.

I am not looking to start a fight on here at all. But if my engine/car was BUILT for LPG then I would run it. It isn't so I won't.

Thats the point though they have built this car to run on lpg . The systems are not what they used to be .
It was the same with diesel but people are waking up and to the economy benefits of them now .
If hsv develop there system a little more the lpg it will have more power and torque the its fuel counterpart yes it wont go a far yet but like flappist said how many sacrifice fuel consumption for more power in a performance car
The new system develier the gas as a liquid hense it is now a wet fuel if my understanding is correct.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Sorry i missed the 52 round trip part now do the same calculation at
at 13lt/100 and 60cents a litre see which one comes up trumps.

How many people use full performance of the car all day , my ute is lucky if the loud pedal touches the floor once a month.

Well at the same sevo Autogas was 79c/l.

It does not really matter. If you are of the "must save money" mindset you are quite unlikely to buy a new HSV or FPV as both are quite expensive and depreciate at a huge rate. You are far more likely to buy secondhand or if new then the more basic, lower end model.

Two points:

1) All of my FPVs and my Z have had the load pedal on the floor almost daily as have most of the "performance" vehicles owned by everyone I know.
2) Your ute is not a FPV or HSV it is a Falcon.

[prydey]

some of you 'anti lpg' people need to catch up on whats happening in the lpg world.

liquid injection (not direct injection) will not lose any power over the factory output and if you have a car with forced induction, it will most likely net you more power.

why would you not want MORE power AND cheaper to run??

[G6ET8U]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Thats the point though they have built this car to run on lpg . The systems are not what they used to be .
It was the same with diesel but people are waking up and to the economy benefits of them now .
If hsv develop there system a little more the lpg it will have more power and torque the its fuel counterpart yes it wont go a far yet but like flappist said how many sacrifice fuel consumption for more power in a performance car
The new system develier the gas as a liquid hense it is now a wet fuel if my understanding is correct.

I understand your point I really do. But if it was a straight gas car then why not sell it as so if it has so many benefits? If it was a straight gas car of the performance variety then Ford/FPV would've had the jump on Holden again. But they haven't... again so it seems.

I'd as a side be far more interested in a G6E Turbo Petrol Direct Injection, than I would ever have in an LPG model. LNG is another thing all together. You need to look to the folks that are being absolutely forced to change their ways. It is the transport industry. They are all trialling either Diesel/Hybrid or LNG. Not LPG.

With regards to gas... LPG isn't the way. It is LNG.

[SSD-85]

Never liked the idea of dual fuel in a car, won't into detail about how I formed that opinion. Either straight gas or straight petrol. I agree with the idea of buyers of brand new HSV/FPV's are not going to care about the cost of their fuel and always will insist the best for their car regardless of cost (They may be embarrassed about having an LPG sticker on their personalised plates lol). In fact, a lot would probably tire of having to ensure that adequate amounts of both fuel/gas are available all the time. Instead of 1 gauge showing 1 tank of something and thats it. Just a thought...

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

I actually switched from BP to Mobil and don't flame me here but I was able to drop 0.3L per 100k's just from the fuel with me not having any honest input to it. Same driving, same trip. Go figure.

You do realise that in Melbourne, BP fuel is supplied by Mobil.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by HYPOG6

Now I am only playing... but the little red tag on the rego plate that makes me look like I can't afford to own my own car...

to me at least 20c per L...

lol


Only joking mate. I just won't own an LPG car. Sorry I am sure it has it's benefits all over the place. But my car was designed to run on liquid fuel, not liquid gas. If my car was designed to run on straight LPG then I would run straight LPG. It wasn't so I won't.

Dual Fuel is a compromise. One is a wet fuel and the other a dry fuel. They in an fuel sense are completely different in their relationship to an engine, the way it is built and the way it is designed.

I am not looking to start a fight on here at all. But if my engine/car was BUILT for LPG then I would run it. It isn't so I won't.

i really understand your concept of thinking mate. but my 4 ltre 6 el was designed for petrol too, it just clocked over 405 000kms on lpg.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

says a lot about the economy of liquid injection to me !!!

( ps; I'm not being sarcastic but i'm not hearing any good economy figures with direct liquid injection . vapour injection seems ok though -loses around 10% )

My super pursuit, for the stop start driving I do to work and back, uses approx 17-19 ltrs of 98 oct fuel per 100 klms using liquid injection for the same driving uses approx 19-22 ltrs and I have picked up approx 5 rwkw with no tuning at all.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well at the same sevo Autogas was 79c/l.

It does not really matter. If you are of the "must save money" mindset you are quite unlikely to buy a new HSV or FPV as both are quite expensive and depreciate at a huge rate. You are far more likely to buy secondhand or if new then the more basic, lower end model.

Two points:

1) All of my FPVs and my Z have had the load pedal on the floor almost daily as have most of the "performance" vehicles owned by everyone I know.
2) Your ute is not a FPV or HSV it is a Falcon.

totally agree with this post. but a factory GT/ OR GTS . must give consideration.

[G6ET8U]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Dreamer !

1. The G6ET sounds poo/ most turbo 6's do

2. The HSV or FPV would eat your car around corners and stop way before yours as well (everytime).

3. Doing any trackdays in G6ET ?!

4. No LSD / Not really a complete performance car in my book.

They are a straight line rocket with a nice interior / that's all though.

lol and what do you drive mate seriously...

I didn't buy my car because of Craig Lowndes in a V8 Supercar.

I bought it because it is EASILY the best car in class. And by mentioning that it doesn't have an LSD you OBVIOUSLY don't own one. So clearly.

No car NEEDS an LSD. Wanna have fun around a corner, want your car impounded? Yep LSD. Wanna get around town with minimal fuss? Not required mate.

I have no doubt that it would make my car slightly more fun, I really do. But I am talking 10/10ths stuff. So how often do you use an LSD in car? If it is more than 1 time a day... and I am being kind then you maybe should re assess how you drive on the road.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by flappist

Which manufacturer, anywhere in the world, has delivered a liquid injection system on a production vehicle?

Subaru in europe offer a Bi-Fuel (dual fuel) car and it uses liquid injection, Although possibly not listed as a manufacturer, Roush Trucks offer a propane truck which uses liquid injection, again from the same manufacturer.

Ford Australia is apparanatly, if rumours are true will be using liquid injection in it's new range of E-gas falcons

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ratter

My super pursuit, for the stop start driving I do to work and back, uses approx 17-19 ltrs per 100 klms using liquid injection for the same driving uses approx 19-22 ltrs and I have picked up approx 5 rwkw with no tuning at all.

good to hear some real world results off owners , now what would you get on petrol ?? then we'll work out the percentage loss and savings . i have heard some owners say they are losing up to 30% on liquid injection.
incidently our GT IS USING 18.7 LTRES PER 100 ON 98 RON AV SPD 37KM/HR

AND I AM AN LPG MAN , IF xr6's come out on lpg with dynamic stability control and 5 speed gear box , them i'm buying one , even if its egas.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well at the same sevo Autogas was 79c/l.

It does not really matter. If you are of the "must save money" mindset you are quite unlikely to buy a new HSV or FPV as both are quite expensive and depreciate at a huge rate. You are far more likely to buy secondhand or if new then the more basic, lower end model.

Two points:

1) All of my FPVs and my Z have had the load pedal on the floor almost daily as have most of the "performance" vehicles owned by everyone I know.
2) Your ute is not a FPV or HSV it is a Falcon.

At the bp closest to me premium unleaded is $1.40 lpg is 64c If you want performance why would you choose the fuel that delivers less of it when you can have better performance at 2/3 the cost .

My ute is not a fpv , thanks for reminding me ill remember to walk in the gutter when your on the foot path .
All though i guarantee you my xr8 was very expensive to me i certainly didn't buy it to save cash

[ratter]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

good to hear some real world results off owners , now what would you get on petrol ?? then we'll work out the percentage loss and savings . i have heard some owners say they are losing up to 30% on liquid injection.
incidently our GT IS USING 18.7 LTRES PER 100 ON 98 RON AV SPD 37KM/HR

AND I AM AN LPG MAN , IF xr6's come out on lpg with dynamic stability control and 5 speed gear box , them i'm buying one , even if its egas.

Sorry fixed the lacking info in my post