Australian cars...is "good enough", good enough...?

2011G6E · 09-05-2011, 08:21 PM

In the relatively shortish time I've been on this forum, I've seen various threads either supporting or bashing one make of car or another...Ford or Holden...and the Australian cars in particular...Commodore and Falcon.

A lot of people seem to think they should be better...even slightly better, but just "better.
Then people will jump in to defend these cars, saying they are "value for the price", and "adequate for a market this size", or "as good as we can expect when compared to the competition."

But is "good enough" good enough? Shouldn't our car makers be awake to the fact that they are playing in a big bad world now...one which is becoming "badder" by the day with new makers coming into the market, sharply priced and loaded with features?
It appears to be an ingrained thing with Australian car buyers (that being people who purchase an Australian-made car) to just too easily excuse shoddy workmanship (that's a bit too harsh...not "shoddy", but just probably "lazy"), lack of features, little niggling inadequacies, or features that are good...but not quite up to the standard we could get from a cheaper import.
People seem to have a selective blindness that lets them see the faults and little shortcomings, but they actively ignore and excuse them with reasoning that merely supports the maker in thier "good enough is good enough for this market" philosophy.

If people were honest, and looked hard at thier Commodore or Falcon, they would spot a dozen little things that, with a tiny bit more effort, could have been made far better...or at least equalled the stuff seen on even cheap imports.
With a little effort, they could make a good car a truly great car.

Why do Australian-car buyers put up with this kind of thing when every other car manufacturer in the world is actively trying to make thier car stand out on the world stage and equal or surpass the standards they are competing against? Ignoring them won't make them go away...and they'd better hope that people don't suddenly start demanding more because they don't seem to be able to respond quickly enough.

Ideas why people turn a blind eye to this sort of thing...?

vztrt · 09-05-2011, 08:31 PM

Guess its what your looking for.

I've been in many of the cheaper imports. IMO these cars lack the comfort, power, space & ride quality I want out of a car. Also in terms of quality they aren't all that awesome as people make out.

The Falcadore is not perfect at all, but I enjoy the cars (for the above mentioned) and if they keep getting more money to produce a more world wide car (GRWD) then I could see some great things. The T6 will be the first time we can see an Aussie designed car with a real budget and not the shoestring that FoA get.

RAREV8 · 09-05-2011, 08:53 PM

I get what you are saying.....my main gripe with the local Falcodore is not so much the slightly agricultural levels but the extortionate service costs.....I'm aware that you don't have to take your car back to the manufacturer to service but most do, myself included because I always have company cars.
Sadly, in spite of spending a fortune, the service levels and problem shooting has always been very average.
So, my company decided to move on to the Aurion instead of the G6- I shan't elaborate on my dim view of this but Toyota, in their favour offer set price servicing and before the naysayers question the service quality, I have to say that my experiences with Holden and Ford (to the best part) has been luke warm.......the Aurion certainly has superior build quality with only the RHS console trim falling off (delivery kms only) and the OSR door hinge has come away from the piller....no wonder they offer a free 1000km service!

Ford_The_Win · 09-05-2011, 08:58 PM

I honestly don't know why people would excuse blatant poor quality just because something is Australian made. I am all for Aussie made products but if they aren't up to scratch then I will buy something that is. I love the Australian car industry, they make products that are unique and right for Australia and I love driving my Falcon. But I won't excuse it's obvious poor build quality just because it's Aussie. It's really disappointing, and to answer your question, not good enough. Look at the list of recalls and buyer satisfaction/reliability surveys for Australian made cars over the past few years... look beyond Ford and Holden, locally made Toyotas have suffered from their share as well. It's not acceptable at all, not in the globalised world.

Better put the flame suit on.

DanielXR8 · 10-05-2011, 12:01 AM

Fords local products have always suffered from this and yes, many make excuses as I once did.

Probably the thing I dont understand is how so many on here bag Holden for recalls but turn a blind eye to Ford having similar problems or worse and doing nothing proactive about it. Ford don't have recalls because they are a better engineered or built car, they are just trying to avoid costs by screwing their customers. Holden keeps its customers when it looks after them, Ford burns through them until there is none left. I know which is smarter.

Anyway the FG is soooo close to being brilliant you have to question why the few cents in the dollar they save are really worth it. The platform is in its twilight years, they should just up the materials and standard kit and let the Falcon go out on a high note and a good reputation. Porblem is whenever someone suggests it here, they are shouted down by the "good enough" brigade and the like you said the world has changed.

The Koreans want Fords market share for one.

onfire · 10-05-2011, 02:07 AM

I think you summed it up with this quote "adequate for a market this size" or more so "adequate for this market "

I think it's been unintentionally ingrained in our thought process that if you're looking to purchase a large family sedan, you've only really got two options. And both car-makers, Ford AU and Holden know this.

For some reason we'll except mediocre quality cars.

A guy at work is always at it, he owns a BMW 320i & a Merc C200 Kompressor and can't understand why the majority of us go out and buy Falcons and Commodores at work when we can pick up a used Beamer or Merc for a good price. Each to their own.

chevypower · 10-05-2011, 02:20 AM

Good enough used to get by for car manufacturers. But those days are gone. When you look at car names that were synonymous with "cheap," are now proving that they're serious contenders. You never would have pitched Hyundai or Kia with "quality," but things have changed, everyone is doing high quality cars with fantastic engines, quality engineering, good handling, even advanced technology. It used to be that only wealthy people got advanced technology in their cars, they would show it off and everyone would go "ooooo" but things like 5 star crash safety, 8 speed auto transmission, advanced safety features, self-parking, high-end infotainment systems, complete reliability, advanced engineering - car manufacturers NEED all this now, just to stay IN the game (not ahead of it). 6 speed transmissions are still mainstream, but give it about 12-24 months.

RAREV8 · 10-05-2011, 06:34 AM

Its interesting to see "cheap" manufacturers like Hyundai quickly evolve into makers of class leading vehicles over a matter of a few years whereas Ford being one of the oldest manufacturers has followed a far slower evolutionary path- at least locally.

However, the lower end of the falcodore range seems pretty good value- the issue is that as you spend $65k+ on their upper level cars, the quality hasn't improved at all.....they only seem good value compared with the Euro offerings because the Australian excise makes the imports so prohibitably expensive

rancidpunx · 10-05-2011, 07:28 AM

I dont think its just cars. To be honest, coming from England theres is a total lack of professionalism here. There are great people out there dont get me wrong, but the "She'll be right attitude" in this day in age as you said just is not good enough. The amount of times I go out for dinner with the missus and the order is wrong, or we had a Canopy put on the back of her Ranger and the install was pathetic with dodgy seals, their fix? Silicone. Should have been taken off and reinstalled. I bought a bunch of aluminium recently, wrong lengths issued and then I was argued with when I was picking it up. Mail orders through aussies companies 1 in 2 will ship something incorrectly or just forget the order completely. Dont get me started on government/council agencies.
To go back to local cars I see plenty in my line of work. I will keep it to the falcon and the things that are clearly just cheap and not good enough. Things like not fitting a boot lid liner as standard on XR models or the mass of cars leaving with poorly aligned wheels.

flappist · 10-05-2011, 07:53 AM

My only real problem with modern falcons, from XT right up to GT-P, is that they start to fall apart after 2 years or 50,000km.

My BA2 XT has had the passenger door handle fall off ($800), brakes crap (again), drivers door lock chuck a tanty, wonder wobble at 90km/h just to name a few.
My BA2 F6 has a list of faults so long that after the right hand front suspension failed driving down the Toowoomba range I bought another marque altogether.
My BA1 GT-P had the drivers seat bolster fail, gearbox, diff, engine, electronics, paint, tail shaft all require major and sometimes repetitive reparation.

NONE of the other marques I own have anywhere near the issues I have had with Falcons including other Fords that are not Falcons.

I wonder if the marketing gurus have actually think that as long as it is quicker over 400m than a commodore then it will continue to sell regardless of anything else?

OzJavelin · 10-05-2011, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAREV8

Its interesting to see "cheap" manufacturers like Hyundai quickly evolve into makers of class leading vehicles over a matter of a few years whereas Ford being one of the oldest manufacturers has followed a far slower evolutionary path- at least locally.

Standing on the shoulders of giants. I'd think it's a lot easier to build good quality and cheaper cars when you are basically starting greensfields, but with the added benefit of a lot of technology and processes that you didn't have to invent yourself along the way.

2011G6E · 10-05-2011, 08:41 AM

Good comments there.
I should have pointed out that I'm not really "bashing" Ford or Holden...or specifically Commodore or Falcon...but just making a general comment about how the market has changed over the years. I just wish they'd pick thier act up a little...and if you be totally blunt about it, it wouldn't have to be all that much.

Don't get me wrong...we love our new G6E and love driving it, but I just expected "more" for the price we paid. I mean, when you're lashing out $50,000 you have an image in your mind that this car is going to be something pretty damn awesome and something about which the designers have considered carefully every little detail...but when you start to take note (usually after the initial "rose tinted glasses" stage of ownership) of little things, you start to ask why they did it that way instead of doing those little (and sometimes not that little) things perhaps not better as such, but just slightly differently, they could have made it glaringly obvious that it's a total "quality" automobile.

Ford and Holden don't run a closed shop as they once did, and people now expect more. They also expect more when the car maker themselves loudly shouts about being "world class" and "setting world standards"...

Wretched · 10-05-2011, 09:05 AM

The problems with the local cars are each other.
They only go as far as the other does, though recently Holden/HSV started to edge ahead.
One releases a feature, new engine, more power the other does it.
This is all fine for a couple of years and between each other but really the progress hasn't been that great over the years when compared with the rest of the world.
Now before some of you get on the high horse you're so familiar with, I am not comparing these two to Mercs and BMWs (though many here like to selectively believe the locals can be).
Really with the increase of imported vehicles has given us consumers a much better variety of car, giving us more choice than the usual falcadore.

Some of these cars have provided us with technologies, features and dynamic ability never seen in a local car. These aren't all on high end euro cars, some on cheaper japanese, korean and euro cars.
One would expect that the locals would look at these and begin to improve their breed. Obviously not, and here lies the problem with Australian cars. What is their problem with striving to achieve better? You want to think our cars a good value? Show us, prove to us what can be done. The G6ET is a perfect example of this, it could have been better but it is the only FG that I would even look at.

The only thing the locals can do is big power, 15 years ago that was fine but the market changed long ago and it is about time the locals did to. Sitting with their head in the sand instead of taking on these imports head on.
Budget constraints? They're both subsidiaries from large US car companies with facilities all over the world. You don't need to re invent the wheel and waste millions in R&D when it's already been done and all that is needed is a retrofit (cost of that would be far less than R&D of a new product).

My biggest gripe with the locals is the quality, two Falcons I owned, no more than 5 years ownership from either and I would never go back. The XT felt like it was put together by a drunk bogan while he was beating his wife. I spent more time at the dealer getting it fixed than I did driving it. Luckily that time I had a good contact at the dealer who was quite good in dealing with the issues. The XR8 was better but still not great and this from a 100+ year old company and a product that has been going for 50 years.

Just because 15 years a go the market accepted the lazy, corner cutting dodgy workmanship of the cars doesn't mean that exists today. While I do not expect Rolls Royce quality or materials I do expect my car to work, doors to align and the fit and finish to be up to standard. I have a German made focus, while it isn't the greatest of quality products it has exceeded my expectations and has far outlived the local product contrary to many beliefs that if the car isn't made here it won't survive.

For Ford to keep the Falcon going they need to continually innovate the product, give us the best they can offer. Use their international parts bins, stop penny pinching on top of the range cars and give us value for money and most of all concentrate on quality. The FG is far better than BA was but for a company that has been making cars for this long, really, compared to some cars made by more recent makes, they feel very amateurish.

So to answer the OP, no, good enough is not good enough.

**Polyal** · 10-05-2011, 09:25 AM

Its just penny pinching, and you cant blame them.

Problem is at the end of the day 99.9% of consumers dont care what issues manufacturers have, they are after the best bang for their buck.

Until the locals work a way to infiltrate their cars into a global position then they will always play second fiddle. To do what they do on the budgets they have is still an achievement, you cant take that away from them.

Holden have given it a really good crack, although GM seemed more eager to either aid or be aided with the Commodore, it hasnt really worked out. To work, IMO, the locals needs to be based off a global platform and then the body/interior and to some extent the drive lines are done here. That way we get access to tech, lower the costs and the money can then be spent on things the consumer wants or will notice.

Both produce a similar product, but the philosophy behind the companies couldnt be anymore different. GM seek to satisfy the consumers now, almost but not entirely regardless of cost to them, just keep the sales up.

Ford seem to over engineer everything and forget that these days people want the gizmo's aswell. So you have a technical marvel that no one wants because it doesnt meet some criteria that gets bums in seats.

I think Clarkson is generally a doofus, but his comment about the production of the cars we get for its size is spot on.

2011G6E · 10-05-2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

The problems with the local cars are each other.
They only go as far as the other does, though recently Holden/HSV started to edge ahead.
One releases a feature, new engine, more power the other does it.
This is all fine for a couple of years and between each other but really the progress hasn't been that great over the years when compared with the rest of the world.

Very very good point.

Coincidentally, I've just been readind the latest "Unique cars" magazine (looking for an early '70's F100...) and they have an article looking back at the VN Commodore.
They list how it was, basically, a cobbled-together mixture of bits and pieces from GM products around the world, and was very flawed and flimsy. They also make the point that "There is little doubt that the first AU Falcon was Fords equally cynical response to the unquestioning acceptance of the bleak VN". The VN of course enjoyed a lot of official protectionism (as did Ford) to shield them from the big bad world of cars that were properly screwed together.
In other words, owners knew damn well it was a seriously flawed car, but they just couldn't accept that thier beloved "Aussie dinky-di ridgy didge" car maker could produce a car that was worse than the Japanese cars of the time.

I honestly believe they have a mind-set stuck in the 1970's and think they only have to compete against each other...like at Bathurst and V8 Supercars where the real world doesn't exist either...and are like a couple of guys running a race just worrying about what each other is doing, without noticing the other guys catching up rapidly and passing on the outside...

Riksta · 10-05-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Coincidentally, I've just been readind the latest "Unique cars" magazine (looking for an early '70's F100...) and they have an article looking back at the VN Commodore.
They list how it was, basically, a cobbled-together mixture of bits and pieces from GM products around the world, and was very flawed and flimsy. They also make the point that "There is little doubt that the first AU Falcon was Fords equally cynical response to the unquestioning acceptance of the bleak VN". The VN of course enjoyed a lot of official protectionism (as did Ford) to shield them from the big bad world of cars that were properly screwed together.
In other words, owners knew damn well it was a seriously flawed car, but they just couldn't accept that thier beloved "Aussie dinky-di ridgy didge" car maker could produce a car that was worse than the Japanese cars of the time.

I honestly believe they have a mind-set stuck in the 1970's and think they only have to compete against each other...like at Bathurst and V8 Supercars where the real world doesn't exist either...and are like a couple of guys running a race just worrying about what each other is doing, without noticing the other guys catching up rapidly and passing on the outside...

Did it also say that the VN is Horn?

XWGT · 10-05-2011, 09:56 AM

Heres the part I dont really understand

Most people will claim Euro is better designed and engineered than Australian and quality is a no brainer.

However, when it comes to second hand, people are nervous buyiing Euro that is out of warranty. I wonder why? Surely if they are better engineered etc they should be less likely to need expensive repairs? However we all know this is not the case. So are people not actually stating by default that the local product is a better option LONG TERM?

Strange old market..........

**Polyal** · 10-05-2011, 09:58 AM

Tis true XWGT, although its more a parts thing and the rip off prices local garages charge when a quick browse on ebay shows what they can really be brought for...but the average person would have no idea.

AMGC63 · 10-05-2011, 10:27 AM

Interesting topic, Neither Ford nor Holden seem to be making much money yet people claim they're too expensive? Wont discounting them just make the loses worse?
People want more features in the Falcon which will cost money but want it cheaper? You cant have it both ways, we don't have the market size to be efficient manufacturers here.
Look at what the Falcon and Commodore cost today including features compared to 10 years ago, by my reconning they're both better made and cheaper now!
I think the average consumer has become a real tight bum..!

**Polyal** · 10-05-2011, 10:48 AM

^^^No the competition is just better, they are better because they are global products and therefore can afford to be better.

But nothing comes close long term, as XWGT pointed out, to the locals for durability and running costs. Mind you people seem happier to change over cheaper cars more often than purchase a good one and hold onto it.

stang65 · 10-05-2011, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onfire

I think you summed it up with this quote "adequate for a market this size" or more so "adequate for this market "

I think it's been unintentionally ingrained in our thought process that if you're looking to purchase a large family sedan, you've only really got two options. And both car-makers, Ford AU and Holden know this.

For some reason we'll except mediocre quality cars.

A guy at work is always at it, he owns a BMW 320i & a Merc C200 Kompressor and can't understand why the majority of us go out and buy Falcons and Commodores at work when we can pick up a used Beamer or Merc for a good price. Each to their own.

Yes you can buy a second hand BMW or MERC but for the money you won`t have warranty, Engines ,Transmissions can end up costing more than the car is worth.

AMGC63 · 10-05-2011, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stang65

Yes you can buy a second hand BMW or MERC but for the money you won`t have warranty, Engines ,Transmissions can end up costing more than the car is worth.

Yep, All fine if you don't drive much but if you do allot of driving for work or whateva then you'll soon find second hand cars once they get beyond 100 thousand k's are money pits, especially European ones.
The Falcon and Commodore have become almost disposable after they're 4 years old and the warranty is dead.
The main reason Ford and Holden can't provide the same level of quality against the ever increasing import competition is because we dont/cant sell our cars anywhere else, scales of economy will never allow the Falcon or Commodore to be world competitive.

Road_Warrior · 10-05-2011, 11:19 AM

Personally I've given up. With some of the opinions on this forum, Ford Australia doesn't need enemies. That other thread is a classic example - mindless bashing of local products with the assumption that they are all crap-heaps and that everyone that has bought them hates them.

Maybe there are people out there that don't really care about the latest 'must have' tech and that the cars in their current form suit their needs - you can't say otherwise if that car meets their needs and that person is happy with it. Just because one person may not like it for whatever reason doesn't mean to say it is the default opinion for all new car buyers.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Ford doesn't need to do better. They need to keep their cars moving with the times or be prepared to switch off the lights IMO. The point made by many (including me) is that locally made cars aren't the massive piles of crap they are made out to be. They way some people carry on, the FG Falcon is worse than a 15 year old reverse engineered Chinese car.

We are all well aware that Ford is in a bit of a hole at the moment - a lot of it from its own doing but also a lot of it from head office interference. So instead of sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks at the windows, why not give them the benefit of the doubt and see if the ship can be turned around. The FG refresh will be the day or reckoning.

BLUEYBA · 10-05-2011, 11:22 AM

Do you think Ford Aus in this case has been held back by the amount of funding that Ford NA has given them to develop and produce the Falcon. Maybe with a few extra dollars those little things that let the car down could be improved to a level that we want.
Maybe once the Falcon get incorporated into the one Ford then we may see a Falcon that has the quality and finish that we expect. All we need is Ford Aus to be allowed to develop it with all the dollars they need. Many of us on here say how well Ford Aus do by producing a car without an adequate budget. Just my opinion and putting it out there for people opinion

Road_Warrior · 10-05-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLUEYBA

Do you think Ford Aus in this case has been held back by the amount of funding that Ford NA has given them to develop and produce the Falcon. Maybe with a few extra dollars those little things that let the car down could be improved to a level that we want.
Maybe once the Falcon get incorporated into the one Ford then we may see a Falcon that has the quality and finish that we expect. All we need is Ford Aus to be allowed to develop it with all the dollars they need. Many of us on here say how well Ford Aus do by producing a car without an adequate budget. Just my opinion and putting it out there for people opinion

Your opinion is 1000% on the money. The end.

**Polyal** · 10-05-2011, 11:35 AM

Oh come on guys, its not 100% Ford NA's fault. You can hardly justify extra expenditure for this market.....I think both GM and FoA have been lucky to get what they have. The GFC has smartened up Ford so we will see what happens next, there is buckleys chance of things continuing as they do now.

Kryton · 10-05-2011, 11:38 AM

Is good enough really good enough?
No.
Why do you think no one else wants to buy our home built cars.

sanchoXB · 10-05-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

Heres the part I dont really understand

Most people will claim Euro is better designed and engineered than Australian and quality is a no brainer.

However, when it comes to second hand, people are nervous buyiing Euro that is out of warranty. I wonder why? Surely if they are better engineered etc they should be less likely to need expensive repairs? However we all know this is not the case. So are people not actually stating by default that the local product is a better option LONG TERM?

Strange old market..........

The main issue with Euro cars is the service costs. After we sold the BA Futura we wanted a 2005 Jaguar, the price for a used one isnt bad, the only reason we didnt buy it was the cost to service it.
If the taxes on Euro imports wasnt so high they would give Ford & Holden a big shock. Maybe that is why the government keeps import taxes so high - to keep the local industry going.

Ford_The_Win · 10-05-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Is good enough really good enough?
No.
Why do you think no one else wants to buy our home built cars.

Got it in one.

**Polyal** · 10-05-2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

Is good enough really good enough?
No.
Why do you think no one else wants to buy our home built cars.

Not really a fair statement.

If the falcon had the opportunity to spread its wings (love pun) then its budget would increase which in turn increases quality and content...in theory.

For the money nothing comes close to the performance, space, practicability and versatility of the falcon.