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#1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
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I usually try to stay away from watching or reading the news, my own world is more friendly (well, most of the time anyway), I went searching for some information last night, and had to troll through hundreds of news articles, and I came across the following:
- A man who murders a two year old, gets life imprisonment with 33 year minimum. - A man who has done awful things (and 16 counts of), gets 12 years - his victims are still alive... - A boy who breaks into someone's house and gets beaten by the 16 year old occupant, has the option to press charges against the occupant of the house, despite being there unlawfully to begin with. - A boy who was egging a house, and subsequently stabs a mother of three killing her, gets released on bail, as he's 'not a threat'. Now I didn't put this up to go into the nitty gritty of each individual case, but it would appear that we have some seriously flawed legislation and logic floating about our society. I raised it because somewhere, somehow - the perspective has shifted from looking out for your neighbour and being a caring citizen, and has slipped by the wayside. I'm disappointed that a legal system can hand out 'just' sentences on one hand, and those that make absolutely no sense on the other hand. I understand that the legal system is based on how strong your case is, but surely there needs to be some kind of 'fairness' for the victims of crime? After the fact, we are given the option to request compensation through VOCAT, and there's a limit ($70,000 I'm led to believe), but compensation doesn't change your life, it might make it easier...but it doesn't make the event go away. If it gets rough, I will ask a mod to close this thread (if they don't choose to close it anyway)...so please, keep it civil.
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----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez ![]() Photo's by Sez |
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#2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 575
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humans aren't 100% logical or 100% rational at all times. the legal system is run by humans.
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#3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 665
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I hear you. The funny thing is that it is still relatively safe in this Country overall, but the chances of something happening to you like being stabbed for confronting an egger are ever increasing for some reason.
The fact that a couple of teenage boys could taunt an old woman with stones in the wee hours of the night in her own home before they returned to murder her is astounding. The fact that she called the police but the operator did not pass this on to them is as equally amazing. All this in a small district where everybody knows everyone on the edge of the Adelaide city limits. Also for another male teenager to murder an entire family minus the brother who was out of town at the time (I think), over a misguided romance with a 16 yo girl is just as baffling. Again this happened in a quiet community in the Barossa Valley. I think that you nailed it with the lack of community sprit or sense of neighbourly love that is so lost on so many communities in Australia today. It is no wonder that the law just does not know how to handle them now. Bud Bud |
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#4 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
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I can understand that as humans, it's not always rational - I get that 100%, everyone does stupid things.
I think these sorts of crimes surpass the 'stupid things' that we did as kids/young adults, etc., but the disparity between the sentences is what really gets me - one gets 33 year minimum for one count, another only gets 12 years, for sixteen counts - I know the charged crime was different in each case, however the difference between 33 years in prison and 12 years is a long time. The crimes themselves are heinous enough, but I'm a little concerned that the victims are the ones that end up getting the short end of the stick in these cases, and that really bothers me... :(
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----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez ![]() Photo's by Sez |
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#6 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Point 3 has the option to press charges, that does not mean that the charges will stick or the occupant will be prosecuted or tyat the perpetrator will not be charged with any crime. Point 4 is not a sentence at all, he still needs to go to court be found guilty then sentenced. The legal system is not perfect by a long shot, but the media certainly skew how they report as the rarely publish all the facts a contraversial case sells more papers. |
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#7 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
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Quote:
Point three - The problem lies in that the criminal actually has the potential to press charges on someone who was 'legally' there, whereas they were not. We can't protect ourselves from this at all - we will always be in the wrong, despite us actually being in the 'right', if you get what I mean. That's what I mean by flawed logic...you can have your name and your families name dragged through the mud, for simply being in your own home. Point four -I know he hasn't been sentenced yet, but he's been released on bail...after killing someone. How someone can stab someone but be seen as 'no threat' to society? He has already proved he's a threat to society by stabbing someone hasn't he? ![]()
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----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez ![]() Photo's by Sez Last edited by SEZ213; 05-07-2011 at 03:05 PM. |
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#8 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Cool,
Particularly on point 4 the release on bail is generally conditional and the judge saying that he is "no threat" may not be in context, additionally and we don't know what evidence was presented in the bail hearing, it may be very circumstantial. I remember a friend who is a lawyer in a opersonal injury case were a 64 year old man was compensated for an industrial accident, he got $500K. One of his "injuries" was impotence. The local paper reported how the legal system is beaking down as a 64 year old man got $500K compo for becoming impotent. Paper forgot to mention that was only one of his injury and that the bloke actually lost the use of his legs and the money that he got was to modify his house to help him with his new found handicap. Hence I take the reporting on legal cases with a big grain of salt. |
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#9 | ||||
let it burn
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: QUEENSLANDER!!!!!
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
You have to factor in why the legal system exists in the first place, and I can assure you it didnt come about to punish criminals (thats an extension), it was to protect you from tyranny of kings etc. Protection of the individuals rights. The legal system we have comes from the Magna Carta originally (theres canon law and other forms of rules etc that existed but essentially you were at the mercy of the absolute monarch), and it was simply an arrangement between landed gentry and the king, ensuring the gentry had rights, and the king obligations in return for loyalty and support when the king needed it (in times of war, and the provision by the landed gentry of knights and armies to the kings service for example). We always had rules, even tribes will dish out punishments for social wrongs, but a formal legal system it wasnt. Quote:
The other cases Im unaware of so cant comment why they might be the way they are. But generally, someone trying to steal your stuff or do damage to it is not the same as someone trying to harm you. You can injure someone, but only in self defence. If you go after them, and I understand why some people might, you have to expect the law interprets that as vigilante or anger and that is not a defence. You will probably find in the case you mentioned where the kid who broke in to a house, that kid will also be charged with his crimes. 2ndly, the police or DPP lay charges because on the face of it there is a case to answer, as to whether that turns out to be true (ie: found guilty) is another matter. The trial decides guilt or innocence, the charge does not. Legally anyway, public opinion is another matter. Yeah there are aberrations in the system at times, but most that are reported are media beat ups and misrepresentations in the name of headlines. Or a publics myopic focus on the victims (understandably) without thinking about what protects your rights to be protected from malicious or dubious prosecutions and yes, by you I mean you who have done no wrong. Dont forget, a legal system isnt exclusively aimed at representing victims of crime, and the punishment of criminals, it also is designed to protect you from wrongful conviction, your liberty and life etc, and as such that extends to the accused too. Otherwise anyone could accuse another of a crime, have them locked up without bail until a hearing can find they are not guilty. Again, the trial decides that. The police or DPP only see if their is enough evidence to lay the charge. What youre really asking for, is pre-judging by police/DPP beyond what is reasonable given the protection of all citizens from malicious prosecutions. I know it sounds stupid, and if you focus on individual cases and the victim then it will seem anti-social, but when you also consider the assumption of innocence until proven guilty and the reasons why we have that philosophy as a nation, its really all they can do. It truly is one of things that makes this country great, its not for example, Iran. Your other question and it is another question is why people do the things they do. Postulate that all night, the reasons are as varied as why people choose a car. |
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#10 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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Because magistrates live in ivory towers.
Some of the crap that goes down in this country's legal system makes you wonder. I don't particularily like our "equal and opposite" force laws, or not being able to defend yourself with a weapon if someone breaks into your house, its all fine and dandy for a magistrate to make a judgement 6 months after the event happened, from the safety of his bench and stupid hat, which 95% of the time ends up the house owner cops it. |
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#11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TAS
Posts: 2,551
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Top post fmc351
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XA coupe 8.8sec @ 150mph http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...coupe+drag+car BA GT-P for the shed Mustang GT for the other half E3 chubsport - fully fat (and slow), sitting there waiting for me to get sick of it and sell it. BA XR6T for a daily NT Pajero for the bush XB 4 door project- swallows a BF xr6 turbo My dad is a generous bloke. He gave away his dead car batteries free of charge.... |
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#12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
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Quote:
I think I'll go back to not reading the news anymore...as my postulating generally lasts a lot longer than one night... ![]()
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----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez ![]() Photo's by Sez Last edited by SEZ213; 05-07-2011 at 10:04 PM. |
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#13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Great post by the way, very informatrive. I have real passion for the legal system. I should do a law degree....maybe one day if time permits. |
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#14 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,011
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Quote:
![]() You can do courses online, should look into it. |
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#15 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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You're right my wife tells me if I spent the time studying instead of on the forums I'd do it easy...
You know what..I'll look into it! |
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#16 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,290
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nothing wrong with the law its what wrong with the sentences rehabilitation doesnt work hard justice does hang em from the highest yard arm
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#17 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
My example to the contrary. There is a death penalty for drug trafficking in Indonesia but lots of people still do it? |
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#18 | ||||
let it burn
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: QUEENSLANDER!!!!!
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
If you have a passion for the law, a law degree is very enjoyable. Lots of reading though. And I do mean lots. With any degree like the various business degrees you will get weekly reading set for each subject you take. It may consist of one or two chapters (maybe 100 pages in total) plus a little extra reading (thats a heavy subject, many are just 30-60 pages total). Its heavy enough considering FT youre doing 4 subjects per semester, and generally have assignments due which require you to research them too, and weekly tutorial work. With a law degree, you'll get one or two chapters from one or two textbooks on each subject, plus cases, and then theres the 'recommended reading' (read not required, but damn well helps if you have) cases too. Plus assignments and weekly tute work. It depends on the subject, and what year they are, but there is so much reading in law. I assume science degrees are similar to law in that. The reading is one thing, rereading is the worst part for time. ![]() ![]() It helps if you like history too because its so steeped in history. I remember (it was a distraction really, I had to control it a bit) that things Id seen on old movies for example, or movies of say Robin Hood that made you think, 'why would anyone do that' or 'what, that makes no sense', become clear and actually make some sense in the context of the laws of the time. Google 'gleaning laws' and you'll get an idea of what Im talking about. If youve had a religious upbringing you might be aware of it already (you might be aware of it without that... I dont know), I didnt have a religious upbringing so had no idea about it. The Magna Carta helps put the fiefdoms and feudal ways of England in Medieval times into some perspective too. On the plus side, the exams are mostly open book. But dont let that fool ya, it isnt easy if you havent prep'ed properly and understood what youve learned anyway. But yeah, give it a go. Quote:
I dont think even the medical professionals can understand them much better. Its like trying to accurately predict an infinitely sided die. Maybe over time you can predict, within a ball park of options, one persons behaviour, but the next one you have to start all over again. |
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#19 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TAS
Posts: 2,551
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Quote:
__________________
XA coupe 8.8sec @ 150mph http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...coupe+drag+car BA GT-P for the shed Mustang GT for the other half E3 chubsport - fully fat (and slow), sitting there waiting for me to get sick of it and sell it. BA XR6T for a daily NT Pajero for the bush XB 4 door project- swallows a BF xr6 turbo My dad is a generous bloke. He gave away his dead car batteries free of charge.... |
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#20 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
If you get into a fight and kill someone in the process then its a manslaughter charge. A while back the son of one Australia's "rich" elite (cant recal his name but he was a twat) had gone to a guys house and shot someone. His legal defence was that he only went there to hurt him, not kill him and therefor the charge of murder should be dropped and it should be manslaughter. That didnt work as he went there armed with a gun and it was premeditated. His intent was to shoot him. Manslaughter gets used in motor vehicle accidents all the time, unless someone deliberately runs down someone etc... If it can be shown the boy came back to the woman (who was waiting at her car apparently) with the intent of stabbing her then the charge will probably be changed to murder. If the boy went there to appollogise and then got into an arguement with the woman and stabbed her, then it will stay as manslaughter charge.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,324
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Quote:
If someone is breaking into your house then that means they are a threat. You should be able to take action against them to stop them, within reason. |
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#22 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
Ask 10 people what it means to take action "within reason" I bet you get 10 different answers. |
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#23 | |||||
let it burn
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: QUEENSLANDER!!!!!
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Intent aspect of Common Law murder. Quote:
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Dont get me wrong, I get it. Someone breaks into your house at 2am, your kids are in the house and your wife, waiting it out might not be your first choice, nor mine. I'll deal with the courts later, and shoot now. |
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#24 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: QLD
Posts: 4,446
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Sezzy,what a mind blowing subject,the myriad of implications for each case is huge.
Will come back later today when I've had time to digest comments.
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FORD RULES OK The more I know ppl the more I love my DOGS. 2011 SY Territory Limited Edition TS 2000 AUII SE ute IL6 |
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#25 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Parkdale, Vic
Posts: 1,016
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One day? Sorry to rain on your parade. If you do it part time whilst holding another job and feeding your family it will take you around 10 years to get past the bar exam, and to being a practicing solicitor (as well as many thousands of dollars in tuition fees). I thought about it too.
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"You can't fight stupid people - there's just too many of them" |
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#26 | |||
Adapt or perish...
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dip!@#$
Posts: 7,954
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Quote:
For example: - Said person breaking into house armed, if you could disarm them and keep them down. - Same as above but you get hit, should be able to hit back as far as I'm concerned. - Same as first but unarmed, put them in a hold to stop them from hurting you/anyone else and get another person to call police.
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Carless
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#27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
Several Police officers i know and other people in legal profession have always said... its usually best to make sure he (the intruder) is dead. So if you shoot... shoot twice... shoot to kill, then fire the warning shot.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,193
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Quote:
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#29 | ||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
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I say if you break in to someones house you are exposing yourself to the risk of what might lie behind the closed door. If you happen to break in to the house of a very capable fighter, so your consequences will reflect your neglect to consider the possible implications.
I say have at them, without causing death. My house is a private sanctum, a place of security for me and my family, if entrance is forced and the doors/windows are no longer secure, I am the next defence in line. |
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#30 | |||
Banana
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Wandin North, VIC
Posts: 2,031
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Quote:
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2024 Ford Ranger Wildtrak V6 w/PP 2012 WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland CRD |
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