ANCAP – It wasn’t us who stuffed up Lane Keep Assist (LKA) and Emergency Lane Keeping (ELK)

[lra]

Dunno if this link works .....
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...1i8mjW#details.

If something didn't happen, how do they know it could have happened 500,000 times.
I could beat Kyle Chambers in 100m freestyle swimming, but as it hasn't happened yet, he doesn't know about it, and I am happy with my imaginary world record.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Sorry mate you’re in another mind set.
Speeding had decreased immensely on the roads be it suburbia and more so on freeways.

sooooo, speeding has decreased, but accidents and injuries are up? almost as if speeding isn't actually the problem eh?

[prydey]

Driving around today I think I've discovered why many don't like tech like lane keeper /lane assist. These systems use cameras etc to keep the car relatively central to the painted lane.

A large percentage of people use the painted markings on the road as a rough guide only.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

Driving around today I think I've discovered why many don't like tech like lane keeper /lane assist. These systems use cameras etc to keep the car relatively central to the painted lane.

A large percentage of people use the painted markings on the road as a rough guide only.

If you don't want me to drive over it, don't make it flat

[Citroënbender]

I love how bundying off for 24h every Friday evening means I am likely to come back and find one or two AFF threads are now mudfights.

Originally Posted by lra

I could beat Kyle Chambers in 100m freestyle swimming, but as it hasn't happened yet, he doesn't know about it, and I am happy with my imaginary world record.

Reminds me of Fresh Prince “I think I can beat Mike Tyson”?

I’m disappointed in whynot using research to propel an argument. Scientific input has no place in online disputes.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

I’m disappointed in whynot using research to propel an argument. Scientific input has no place in online disputes.

Cherry picking data to suit a viewpoint.

[Captain Stubing]

Emergency Lane Keeping, Land Keep Assist, Cruise Control Distance systems are all relatively new.

Viewpoints on how they work, their effectiveness are even newer. We don't have enough real information to be effectively arguing with conviction.

Lets keep it civil, please, and thank you.


I let a lot of things ride, but don't want to let a thread get out of hand.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FTE217

People are aware cops are around, distance cameras, cameras in so many places sure there is still the rabbits who test the boundaries but nothing like in the past.
That’s Gov schemes, double demerits weekends might I add.
IF you don’t think that has contributed to facilities and or accidents to a % let me know otherwise.

Penalties are massive too - its not just 'driving offences' anymore they're all summary offences now.



The fines can be nothing really (depends on the magistrate) but the ramifications of criminal convictions are wide-reaching, you don't have discrimination protection against being discriminated against in this area in some states, like you with discrimination protection on race/identity/gender/equal opportunity. The protections available now only partially exist in VIC since 2021/2022 with some new at the time legislation - and it still doesn't introduce discrimination protection, it just hides someones ability to see your conviction depending on how the chips fall in court.

Check out this one for 25 over:

Fines for excessive speed, drug and alcohol offences are different from other fines – they are more serious.

They may result in:

driver licence cancellation or suspension
a conviction.

A conviction will be recorded 28 days from the Infringement Notice issue date on your fine, unless you object. If you were not responsible for the offence, you should act before that date. If you don't act, the offence will appear on your criminal record.

Excessive speed

You will be issued with an excessive speeding fine if you are caught driving 25km/h or more above the speed limit or driving at 130km/h or more.

Its the only criminal conviction you can score without even needing to set foot in court, and it applies once you pay your fine - this is the sort of thing that will catch you out on international travel too and cause dramas, or show up on criminal record checks on job interview process.

Dangerous Driving at Speed

In Victoria, dangerous driving at speed carries a maximum penalty of 2 years’ imprisonment or a fine of 240 penalty units. If the vehicle was driven at a speed of 45 kilometres per hour or more in excess of the speed limit, the court must also disqualify the driver for a minimum period of 12 months. If the vehicle was not driven at a speed of 45 kilometres per hour or more in excess of the speed limit, the court must disqualify the driver for a minimum period of 6 months.

What Actions Might Constitute Dangerous Driving At Speed?

The following actions can form the basis of a charge of dangerous driving at speed in Victoria:

Driving at 70km/h in a 40km/h school zone;
Driving at 150km/h on a 110 km/h highway;
Driving at 100km/h in a residential area which causes a collision.

Which Court Will Hear Your Matter?

Dangerous Driving at Speed is a summary offence and will be heard in the Magistrates’ Court of Victoria.

If you oldies did what you did in your youth now, you'd be hit with 2 hoon strikes straight up (exceed 70+ over limit), paying 3 months worth of impound fees and funding lawyers.

The fine was only $850 but it cost me about $4000+ by the time you take into account paying impound fees, looking nice for court and paying lawyers,

If you take into account lost income on the driving ban if you relied on your car to get to work like most people do, than that figure raises to around $70,000.

I'm open about it because I want others to understand the potential ramifications, its not just the potential for accident its the administration side that you don't expect - but I understand if current Franco said this to past Franco, I'd have told myself to GAGF

Certainly changed my attitude behind the wheel, thats for sure.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by simon varley

sooooo, speeding has decreased, but accidents and injuries are up? almost as if speeding isn't actually the problem eh?

True be curious to really know the facts - prydey quoted about more hospitalisation’s increased - don’t know where he got that intel from.

Franco thanks for the info and noting how much you have changed your road manners without tech assisting you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[russellw]

Originally Posted by prydey

My view is, the road toll is largely trending down. Yes, there will be spikes etc but over the long term it is trending down. Even with the rising population over the years and many more people on the road the road toll generally still tends to trend down over time.

I suppose your view must be fact but of course it isn't that simple. Yes, over the long term the road toll per capita (the only meaningful statistic) had been dropping from a peak of 30.3 in 1970; 22.2 in 1980; 13.6 in 1990; 9.57 in 2000; 6.2 in 2010 and 4.2 in 2020 but it has since increased by 2.5%, 4.9% and 3.5% in the three years since and perhaps more importantly the number of serious injuries per capita has been rising steadily since the mid 1980's and has only started to fall again the last 5 years or so.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by russellw

I suppose your view must be fact but of course it isn't that simple. Yes, over the long term the road toll per capita (the only meaningful statistic) had been dropping from a peak of 30.3 in 1970; 22.2 in 1980; 13.6 in 1990; 9.57 in 2000; 6.2 in 2010 and 4.2 in 2020 but it has since increased by 2.5%, 4.9% and 3.5% in the three years since and perhaps more importantly the number of serious injuries per capita has been rising steadily since the mid 1980's and has only started to fall again the last 5 years or so.

My guess is as cars become safer less people die in accidents but the trade off is they survive but come out with serious injuries as the trade-off.

The rise since 2020 is interesting, people are more ruthless than ever on Melbourne's roads, there's an attitude change in the air, people are more stressed out and willing to go off the deep end with the slightest push.

I reckon it's to do with the economy and stagnant wage growth, it's struggle street out there and people are one bad day away from ending up on the street.

The last month I've been involved in a road rage incident (that wasn't my fault) and a blue with a neighbouring business over rubbish dumping allegations and the latter involved one party carrying edged weapons.

[Sprintey]

Is the neighbouring business an edged weapon manufacturer?

Thank you for detailing the nature of the speeding fines and process too, Franco.

Russellw, thank you for the stats, to clarify, does "..4.2 in 2020 but it has since increased by 2.5%, 4.9% and 3.5%..." mean

2021 4.2 x 1.025
2022 that number by 1.049
2023 that next number by 1.035

or

2021 4.2+2.5 = 6.7
2022 4.2+4.9 = 9.1
2023 4.2+3.5 = 7.7

or something different like a compounding % of the 4.2?

And

Why is the road toll increasing if we are safer than ever?

And

If these systems are AOK, why is ANCAP acting the way that it is, subject of this thread?

[Cav]

It was diffrent back in my day.

Cross ply tyres

No seat belts

No speed limits on open roads

Bench seats

Three on a tree

Plus we dove cars at speed when drunk.

Drunk drivers were the leading cause of accidents.

Now it is sober drivers the major cause of accidents

Sorry, they are called crashes now.

Let's get those sober drivers off the roads and let drunk drivers sort out any problems with hoons, road surfaces, speed limits and poor signing.

[randel]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

.......

The rise since 2020 is interesting, people are more ruthless than ever on Melbourne's roads, there's an attitude change in the air, people are more stressed out and willing to go off the deep end with the slightest push.

I reckon it's to do with the economy and stagnant wage growth, it's struggle street out there and people are one bad day away from ending up on the street.
....

nah mate - its the covid vax - everyone has been on edge since

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The last month I've been involved in a road rage incident (that wasn't my fault) and a blue with a neighbouring business over rubbish dumping allegations and the latter involved one party carrying edged weapons.

Talk about road rage and workplace relations - guy lost his leg and got bashed with a hammer - by a workmate!!!:

https://www.news.com.au/national/wes...dbf6c4dc106065

Hows the managers name - "Horse"

[whynot]

I have spent the last day or so trolling through research into Lane Keep Assist (LKA). (Unfortunately, I have lost access to my university’s library database, and so I am stuck with open text articles via Google Scholar.)

I must admit that the more I read the literature the more I am left with a sinking feeling that ANCAP was too far ahead of the technology in mandating that ADAS is forced default-on at every vehicle start. We are going to see a few million cars sold in Australia the next couple years. With a sizable percentage fitted with ADAS systems that are going to seriously annoy its drivers.

Lane Keep Assist (LKA), Lane Departure Warning (LDW), Blind Spot Detection (BSD), Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC), Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB), Electronic Stability Control (ESC) and the rest of the alphabet soup of acronyms fall under the umbrella term of Advanced Driver Assist Systems (ADAS).

Of the literature that I have read through, most research has concentrated on Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) / Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB) as one subgroup and Lane Keep Assist (LKA) / Lane Departure Warning (LDW) as the other subgroup of ADAS.

All the literature that I read acknowledged that Autonomous Emergency Braking and Lane Keep Assist was prone to erroneous misfires and on occasion failed to operate when presented with the correct triggers. Further, the literature also acknowledged these issues were distracting to the driver and resulted in a general loss of confidence in the vehicle. That said, international journals stated that of the driver assist technologies Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) was the most accepted assist system by drivers and contributed most to reduction in accidents.

Australian research by Monash, “The Potential Benefits of Lane Keep Assist Systems in Australian Light Vehicles, REPORT NO. 365”, stated “… if all light passenger vehicles in vehicles in Australia were fitted with AEB, the estimated reduction in total injuries would be 10% for fatalities and serious injuries and 9% for minor injuries…”

In a separate publication by the same authors, “The Potential Benefits of Autonomous Emergency Braking Systems in Australia, REPORT NO. 339”, it was stated “ … statistically significant 16% reduction in the risk of involvement in all casualty crashes of these types and a 22% reduction estimated for fatal and serious injury crashes was associated with LKA fitment to Australian light vehicle was estimated…”

However, these conclusions by Monash Research was challenged in this report; “Quantifying the Lost Safety Benefits of ADAS Technologies Due to Inadequate Supporting Road Infrastructure”, Special Issue Current and Future Issues in Transportation Safety and Sustainability, 2022. If you want to dig out a copy (it is open source) the title is https://doi.org/10.3390/su14042234

For example, the authors of this study noted: “For example, AEB is unlikely to be effective on gravel or unsealed roads and lane keep assist technologies are unlikely to function at all on roads that have poor or no delineation. Therefore, the ability of these technologies to perform optimally will most likely be compromised in locations where supportive road infrastructure is absent … Research that quantifies the predicted benefits of AEB and LKA often fail to acknowledge assumptions made about roads on which cars fitted with these technologies will be driven … Studies that have previously estimated the benefits of advanced driver assist technologies have been conducted on the basis that road conditions are always adequate to support the technologies. The assumption that the entire road network is fully supportive of systems such as AEB, LKA and ISA, however, is severely flawed…”

“ … Across the three states, close to 50% of LKA-sensitive crashes have historically occurred on arterial, and sub-arterial (or equivalent roads), where delineation was found to be less than adequate, potentially compromising the ability of LKA function, once all vehicles are fitted with the technology. Based on the LKA-sensitive crashes in the historical crash data, up to 138 fatalities and 142 serious injuries may not be avoided annually across the three Australian states based on lack of delineation availability …”

A key word in all of the reports mentioned above is that the crash “ … is sensitive …” to AEB, LKA, or both. It does not say that AEB or LKA will prevent the accident. It just says that AEB and/or LKA may assist in reducing the accident severity, with an unknown reduction if fatal or serious injuries.

So now we have this interesting circular argument. A poor road surface and/or lack of marked lines is considered to contribute to an accident. So, the bureaucrats then suggest mandatory implementation of AEB and LKA to prevent accidents that nether system can mitigate (due to poor road surface).

Instead of dollars being spent on LKA, it makes be wonder why the government doesn't paint more white lines on the road. At the very least clean up the white lines they have painted. Seems like a simple way to reduce the road toll.

Still, there is one bottom line estimate for LKA Australian conditions. It was estimated that every vehicle had LKA then up to 138 fatalities and 142 serious injuries (50%) may be avoided in Vic, SA, and Qld. And it was estimated 50% 138 fatalities and 142 serious injuries will not be avoided because there are no lines on the road for LKA to detect.

[arm79]

Originally Posted by simon varley

I don't know what those reviewers were on, but right now, AFAIK, not a single car on the road will actually slam the brakes on itself.

Your kidding right??? What do you think AEB is???

And if that wasn't enough, I drove a car that can do that as standard. And it did slam the brakes on on me in a 110km/h zone unexpectedly and unnecessarily and almost caused a 3 car accident.

I then pulled over and had to go through the manual to work out how to turn it off.

[mad2]

Originally Posted by whynot

Instead of dollars being spent on LKA, it makes be wonder why the government doesn't paint more white lines on the road. At the very least clean up the white lines they have painted. Seems like a simple way to reduce the road toll.

you also have to have a road/s in good repair ....... not signs saying "rough surface" - which we have had for years [without signs] ..... and getting worse.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whynot

Australian research by Monash,

However, these conclusions by Monash Research was challenged in this report; “[I]Quantifying the Lost Safety Benefits of ADAS Technologies Due to Inadequa

As soon as you see 'Australian research by Monash' - throw it in the bin because they're always pushing 'studies' that support what ever the government of the day is trying to force on you.

If the government decided that we were all to shove pinecones up our asses, Monash would come out with a study extolling the virtues of shoving pinecones up your ***.

Pack of flogs, I've never once seen them do something against the government agenda and the state government is always pushing extra funding to them, funny how that works.

Reminds me when my last employer asked me to audit my own sales team and why we came back looking like children of the corn who could do no wrong.