Police LPG Falcons = Lemon? - Page 2

Redrum · 19-06-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwigybo

maybe they should fill them up at the start of each shift regardless of the note haha

That is a lot to ask of a a Detective...........

Steffo · 19-06-2006, 01:15 AM

You'll find that very few Falcon taxi's are factory E-Gas models. The vast majority are cars bought second hand cheaply at auctions (you can buy a BA XT sedan, prime for being a cab, white etc for ~$7000) and converted to LPG. It makes no financial sense to purchase a brand new E-Gas car for $40,000 (once all the taxi stuff has been done to it) and to run it into the ground over six and a half years.

Police vehicles are also required to last a different time to taxi's, and without knowing, I'd assume they're treaded differently.

In NSW, at least, a taxi vehicle must be Australian made (maxi-taxi's aside, no Aussie made vans to speak of), run on LPG and are allowed to be run for six years and six months from date of manufacture. And in that time they usually cover approximately 1,000,000km. They're rarely taken to the limit. Most of the time (in Sydney esp) is spend between idle and ~2500rpm in traffic driving etc. I'm sure police cars reguarly see their rev limits, chasing people, getting to emergencies quickly and whatnot. Very different treatment.

Most Falcon taxi's (that I know of) have their engines and gearboxes pulled at 500,000km and rebuilt. I have no clue about police vehicle life or maintenance so I'll refrain from commenting. However, I have heard bad things about the BA E-Gas models, but no BA taxi I have ever seen has been a factory LPG, they've all been second hand purchase converts, and all run fine.

Bobman · 19-06-2006, 01:15 AM

hehe that's what taxi drivers do, as most AU/BA gauges dont work and they depot tells them to fill every 300km and reset the odometer but even that doesnt get reset sometimes so its always smart to check the tank.

AWD Chaser · 19-06-2006, 03:10 AM

I don't think that it's the cars themselves.... I've been involved with Falcon taxies all either on dedicated gas, or dual fuel, and they don't have these probs.

It could be anything from secondhand gas conversions, police electricals causing a fault, or possibly a computer edit causing a fault...

Just wait till we start seeing the Territory Turbo Police cars.... that will be cool...

Bobman · 19-06-2006, 03:16 AM

From my significant experience with LPG AU & BA Falcons, the BA model was not all it was cracked up to be, especially in E-Gas form.

With regards to the police issues, this is common but was also common in petrol XR8's under police trim, so perhaps all the drain due to the police equipment must have some affect on the vehicle's altenator etc.

However a blocked idle jet or faulty solenoids or posts are very common and this is probably whats happened to some of those police cars.

OzJavelin · 19-06-2006, 07:28 AM

Even during the worst fuel crisis of the mid seventies when Americans were queued up to buy petrol (gasoline), police agencies were excempted from most of this. While most Americans were seriously looking at buying a Toyota Corolla, American cops were still gunning about in 440ci (7.2L) Plymouth Fury's and Dodge Monacos. Although I am an advocate of LPG use, I see no real reason why emergency services need use it. At the moment there doesn't appear to be a "shortage" of fuel, just an increased cost. If we expect a cop or paramedic on the the scene immediately, give them the best transport available within reason .. and if that means them driving I6/V8 petrol engines then so be it.

Ozfords · 19-06-2006, 03:31 PM

The way Cops treat cars is almost similar to the way a crook treats a stolen joy riding car.

All Police cars are thrashed in Urgent Duty situations. The amount of paper work due at the end of a job requires us to continually return to the station to complete it. Whilst the Rodeo/Falcon/Commodore/Patrol/Triton... cools off in the parking. Then the moment a urgent job is broadcast you're in and gunning it.

The fleet has little troubles, Rodeo's freakout almost after turning them off from a quick response and take a while to start up, old Rodeo's got stuck in third if they hit a hard bump and the older 4 cylinder Rodeo's simply exploded. BA Falcon's bottom out with such ease its crazy. ABS and Airbag lights in Commodores are the other problem.

A complex system like the E-Gas Falcon's don't belong in such a unique fleet. You need tried and proven cars that don't freeze.

460cixy · 19-06-2006, 06:56 PM

the ba egas are forever cracking the solioids on the converter where the au dident do that as often. how ever im yet to see a egas ba stop cause of a cracked solioid. if these egas falcons were as bad as there saying i would see them comeing to work every day on a truck but the fact is i dont. its all a bit of a beat up not helped by those with a lpg phobia. and as for going diesel cheers for the laugh mate i nearly wet my self

Bossxr8 · 19-06-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 460cixy

the ba egas are forever cracking the solioids on the converter where the au dident do that as often. how ever im yet to see a egas ba stop cause of a cracked solioid. if these egas falcons were as bad as there saying i would see them comeing to work every day on a truck but the fact is i dont. its all a bit of a beat up not helped by those with a lpg phobia. and as for going diesel cheers for the laugh mate i nearly wet my self

I nearly wet myself too. How is diesel superior to LPG if it costs 3 times as much. LPG is all about cheapness to run, not how it runs.

fordy-two · 19-06-2006, 08:06 PM

Where I work they run a fleet of about 20-30 station wagons. Over the years they have had both commodores and falcons. They last went to the falcons cos the commodores suspension couldn't hack the weight with all the gear they add on and carry. Now every single one is a BA LPG. Every single one has had the same problem related to the LPG. Ok, ok, not every single one, but genuinely over half. The blokes driving them don't thrash them(too much gear inside) and pretty much don't care if it's a commodore or a falcon, but they say they'll never have a BA LPG again.

460cixy · 19-06-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Where I work they run a fleet of about 20-30 station wagons. Over the years they have had both commodores and falcons. They last went to the falcons cos the commodores suspension couldn't hack the weight with all the gear they add on and carry. Now every single one is a BA LPG. Every single one has had the same problem related to the LPG. Ok, ok, not every single one, but genuinely over half. The blokes driving them don't thrash them(too much gear inside) and pretty much don't care if it's a commodore or a falcon, but they say they'll never have a BA LPG again.

so what was going wrong with them? no point saying the same problem related to gas with out some detail

fordy-two · 24-07-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 460cixy

so what was going wrong with them? no point saying the same problem related to gas with out some detail

Sorry, thought this topic was done and dusted, just back here by chance, didn't know you had replied. The problem as related to me is with the Gas Converter relays. Apparently the gas converter has 3 or 4 relays (2 on top, one on the side, one underneath ?) that develop cracks over time. This results in the engine turning over but not firing. Don't know why cracks in the relays do this - maybe moisture ingress ? Apparently you can still get the car started if you tap on the convertor with a hammer whilst turning the ignition key(RACV solution to get them going) - two man job which is why our blokes don't like it, gotta get someone out to help start the car. They've pretty much all been back to Ford. I don't know if it's been a warranty fix or recall or whatever, not my area.

Stoney! · 20-06-2006, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I nearly wet myself too. How is diesel superior to LPG if it costs 3 times as much. LPG is all about cheapness to run, not how it runs.

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. Diesel might be the same price as unleade but comparing the Diesel vectra with the PULP vectra u have a fuel conusmption of 6.6L/100k's for the diesel and 10.5 for the Petrol. And thats an average, city driving saves quite a lot.

Same goes between the Petrol and Diesel VW Polo I was looking at!

And with longer servicing periods on diesel now and an engine that would tripple is life time of that of a gas engine, and hold their value better, I know what I would be going for. Services are very simple on diesel too, shorter than that of a petrol engine and much shorter than that of LPG engined cars, it equates to cheaper servicing costs.

BMW's cheapest car to run in the 3 series range and best performer in europe is their Diesel engined 3 sereis, don't knock them till you try, msot of the new golfs on the road now are diesel, we will start going the same way as england soon, specially with holden releasing a 3.0 DOHC turbo diesel for the commodore late '07 - early '08' and same for falcon soon after.

something around the range of 40% + cars bought in england are diesel (htir diesel is a little chaper too) and not to mention new diesel engines are a much cleaner burning engine than petrol and slightly cleaner than LPG

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

merlin · 20-06-2006, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. !

Actually on the weekend LPG was mid 50cents a litre and petrol was $1.49 a litre which is 3 times as much. The latest LPG injection systems use the same if not less L/100km as petrol vehicles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Diesel might be the same price as unleaded

Diesel is not the same price as unleaded it is usually around 10c a litre more.

Not doubting that diesel is a good alternative but it dosn't hold a candle to LPG.

dogwatch2 · 20-06-2006, 09:37 AM

"on the weekend LPG was mid 50cents a litre and petrol was $1.49 a litre which is 3 times as much. The latest LPG injection systems use the same if not less L/1" ---------The fuel economy for gas is still a fair bit higher -- the factory figures for the commodore exec.sedan say 11.1 l/100k for petrol but 14.8l/100k for gas using the seq. gas system

"LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent." -
I've had two gas cars (VN commodore and ED falcon) and the fuel economy on gas was about 25% higher, not 1.7 times.
So, if you do high km, LPG is still worth it and I would say would work out cheaper than diesel.

turboute · 20-06-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

LPG might be just under half the costs but they uses approx. 1.7 times as much as their petrol equivilent. Diesel might be the same price as unleade but comparing the Diesel vectra with the PULP vectra u have a fuel conusmption of 6.6L/100k's for the diesel and 10.5 for the Petrol. And thats an average, city driving saves quite a lot.

Same goes between the Petrol and Diesel VW Polo I was looking at!

And with longer servicing periods on diesel now and an engine that would tripple is life time of that of a gas engine, and hold their value better, I know what I would be going for. Services are very simple on diesel too, shorter than that of a petrol engine and much shorter than that of LPG engined cars, it equates to cheaper servicing costs.

BMW's cheapest car to run in the 3 series range and best performer in europe is their Diesel engined 3 sereis, don't knock them till you try, msot of the new golfs on the road now are diesel, we will start going the same way as england soon, specially with holden releasing a 3.0 DOHC turbo diesel for the commodore late '07 - early '08' and same for falcon soon after.

something around the range of 40% + cars bought in england are diesel (htir diesel is a little chaper too) and not to mention new diesel engines are a much cleaner burning engine than petrol and slightly cleaner than LPG

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

Under half - 49c vs 1.35 36% of the cost (not 50%), economy goes from 13-15L/ 100 to 17-20L 100 (1.3 times - this is my driving). Now 1.3 x 36% is still 50% of the initial running costs, so the average deisel has to be running at half the fuel usage to get the same savings.

I.e. Deisel hilux has to get 5.5L/100 compared to a petrol hilux converted to gas which started at 11L/100. 6.5 will be acheivable but I doubt you would get 5.5.

Also the new SGI setups get equal economy to petrol so the running costs will be 36% rather than 50%.

As for deisels - while the economy starts good and they start burning clean - when the injectors wear this dissapears. I have seen a few X5's around here that are putting out a bit too much smoke, even saw a deisel golf/polo something small VW the other day that had noticable smoke coming out of it.

Bossxr8 · 20-06-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Don't laugh u may just own one one day.

Stoney!

I would never own a diesel. If I wanted economy i'd go for LPG, but unless its a V8 or turbo 6 I wouldn't bother. The only diesel I'd consider would be a V8 Turbo diesel like the new Range Rover engine or the new 6.4 Ford TD for the new F series only because they make mountains of torque, but not something you'd call fun to drive like a responsive petrol engine.

Stoney! · 20-06-2006, 03:30 PM

Basing it on my prices around here, 57 CPL for LPG 135 CPL for unleaded and 145 CPL for diesel I got the following running costs for a Commodore 11.2L/100 for Petrol 16.1 for gas and 7 for Diesel (approx based on diesel vectra at same weight which is 6.5 L/100k's) over 400 K's a week. (my average K's)

Weekly running costs.
Petrol $60.48
LPG $36.71
Diesel $40.60

Without the higher servicing costs over diesel and not factoring in the much higher durability and reliability of a diesel engine your saving (on fuel costs only) around 200 bucks a year over a diesel, by running an LPG engine, it would be great if I had the time to gather all the stats into my excel spreadsheet so i could work the TRUE costs out of operating the 3 engine types.

Looking at petrol though its rather scary.

Its $1033.76 cheaper to fuel a diesel than a petrol car for a year
and $1236.14 cheaper to fuel a LPG car than petrol for a year.

I'm sure if a real test was done it might start pushing people to either alternative fuel, fueling costs alone have made me think about it.

Stoney!

TURBOTAXI · 20-06-2006, 03:43 PM

Firstly, I think the police people dont like them.

Secondly, It is my understanding that the only Police Vehicle that should be exceeding posted speed limits is a hwy patrol car.

GD cars are not allowed to pursue. They are also not allowed to drive at excessive speed.

A BA LPG falcon in use by police should only be travelling at the posted limit in most circumstances.

Ozfords · 20-06-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

Firstly, I think the police people dont like them.

Secondly, It is my understanding that the only Police Vehicle that should be exceeding posted speed limits is a hwy patrol car.

GD cars are not allowed to pursue. They are also not allowed to drive at excessive speed.

A BA LPG falcon in use by police should only be travelling at the posted limit in most circumstances.

Incorrect, in NSW Police cars are categorised from most suitable for high speed travel to least. All NSW Police cars can in appropriate circumstances break the rules of the road when required to assist other officers and members of the public.

I don't know what gave you the idea that GD's cars are limited by the sign posted limits.

If that were the case there would be alot of unhappy people out there after waiting for long periods of time for Police General Duties cars to arrive in order to provide assistance for a myriad of dangerous incidents.

9 times out of 10 those Rodeos are the first response to emergencies.

TURBOTAXI · 20-06-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Incorrect, in NSW Police cars are categorised from most suitable for high speed travel to least. All NSW Police cars can in appropriate circumstances break the rules of the road when required to assist other officers and members of the public.

I don't know what gave you the idea that GD's cars are limited by the sign posted limits.

If that were the case there would be alot of unhappy people out there after waiting for long periods of time for Police General Duties cars to arrive in order to provide assistance for a myriad of dangerous incidents.

9 times out of 10 those Rodeos are the first response to emergencies.

MMmmmmm. OK I am not a Police officer.

However I stand by my belief that in NSW ONLY highway pursuit cars can pursue another vehicle. GD cars are not allowed to pursue other vehicles.

Perhaps you can cut and paste the relevant NSW police policies around how cars other than Highway Patrol vehicles are to operate on public roads.

(ie the part that says they can operate above posted limits or beyond accpeted road rules)

I am happy to be proved wrong - it would be a learning experience for me.

TURBOTAXI · 20-06-2006, 03:46 PM

My LPG cars get closer to 12l/100k

460cixy · 20-06-2006, 05:49 PM

i would not be so fast as to say those small diesels last as long as an i6 on gas have not seen too many 4banger diesels with a milliom k on them larger diesels how ever do last small high speed diesels dont have the life span of there big slow reving brothers

Ozfords · 20-06-2006, 09:21 PM

AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES - REG 305

Exemption for drivers of police vehicles

305 Exemption for drivers of police vehicles

(1) A provision of the Australian Road Rules does not apply to the driver of a police vehicle if:
(a) in the circumstances:
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care, and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply, and
(b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle that is moving—the vehicle is displaying a blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.
Note: "Motor vehicle"and "police vehicle"are defined in the dictionary.

(2) Subrule (1) (b) does not apply to the driver if, in the circumstances, it is reasonable:
(a) not to display the light or sound the alarm, or
(b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or an alarm.

Australian Road Rules

TURBOTAXI · 21-06-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

(1) A provision of the Australian Road Rules does not apply to the driver of a police vehicle if:
(a) in the circumstances:
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care, and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply, and

Australian Road Rules

Thanks - as I said I am happy to be corrected.

If I read the above correctly, that means that the onus is on the individual officer to decide what is or is not appropriate on the roads, and they no doubt need to be able to defend what they do.

I still have been told that cars other than Hwy Patrol are not allowed to pursue, does anyone have a take on this?

Ozfords · 21-06-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

Thanks - as I said I am happy to be corrected.

If I read the above correctly, that means that the onus is on the individual officer to decide what is or is not appropriate on the roads, and they no doubt need to be able to defend what they do.

I still have been told that cars other than Hwy Patrol are not allowed to pursue, does anyone have a take on this?

That is the case if say for example a Rodeo, Triton, Landcruiser, Patrol or GD's car is in pursuit of another vehicle and a Highway car joins them, then the vehicle's categorised as the least practical to pursue are retired.

Other wise if the driver of the pursuing car has a real death wish and it has been determined that it is too dangerous to the public to continue the pursuit, then Police Helicopters will take over, but by then in metro Sydney a huge operation to co-ordinate road blocks would have swung into action. So even if the Police abort the pursuit chances are you going to get caught anyway.

Back on topic, the LPG cars experience trouble during high speed responses. When they are most needed. I've already explained that due to paper work constraints many cars experience cool down periods as police follow up investigations and get paperwork done at the station. Then urgent messages come over and your off racing away from the turn of the key.

From my understanding from the article in the Sun-Herald the cars need a warming up period, which they are not getting, it would be a joke to sit around warming up the gas Falc's before a urgent or high priority run.

Police need a car that doesn't need special treatment and can take abuse, this isn't blue oval bashing but reality.

Does anyone driver there e-gas BA Falcon like they've stolen it from cold?

schmidty · 20-06-2006, 11:28 PM

What about the maintainance side of owning a diesel? The economy is fantastic, but the things people dont ofter think about is the more frequent and costly maintenence and the fact that most of them are turbos which doesnt do much for insurance!
Oldies had a 97 model 40th anniversary 80 series landcruiser. Did the big end, cost 10k for the change over motor, plus labour. they sold it and bought a new 100 series Turbo Diesel. The turbo diesel 100 series also costs $13,000 more than the V8! (59k Vs $72k) Saw their insurance renewal yesterday, $1600 for 2 rating 1 drivers in a rural area in their 50s with rating 1 and good driving history. Classed as a high performance vehicle because its a turbo!

They are cheap to run if u only look at the price you pay at the bowser but good luck if u own one a few years down the track when someting breaks!