air conditioner gas to go up 220% june 30th ?

[Jim Goose]

There seems to be a LOT of people out there too who actually believe the carbon tax will be applied to ALL businesses... Im staggered at just easy people believe this idea.... Only the big polluters are going to pay this tax and they will obviously pass on rise in costs to their clients....

[bingoTE50]

Originally Posted by fpvgtp

As the owner of a refrigeration & air conditioning company I can assure you that most refrigeration gasses will go up but to date we are not certian of the ammount but have been told to expect somewhere between $50 to $90 per kg depending on the refrigerant. Remember this is a tax that we, owners of companies,will have to pass on to customers & I have a copy of the ACCC 's info and will be able to show justification for the increase when I know what it will be & how it will be charged. Labor party at its best. My costs per service van are expected to increase by $3000.00 plus just for the refrigerant we carry to repair customers equipment multiply that by 12 vans, my service fleet, and come sit in my seat. Not to mention ythe additional costs to wholesalers. Sorry for pinching the thread but ****ed off at this tax and its implications to me and my company and to our customers. PM me if you want more info.

Yep pretty much spot on . I worked in and owned a refrigeration wholesale companies for thirty years ,refrigerant was an expensive commodity before carbon tax. The problem the government is charging the tax on importation. This is based on its global warming potential .They are assuming that it will be released to atmosphere eventually. It is Bs , the industry has had tight rules on the release of refrigerant to atmosphere , in some states since 1988 with the phase out of R12 , R502. I now am a estimator for a tier one Mechanical Services company and on major plant like chillers , the carbon tax portion of the cost can be 60k on some I have priced. Crazy

[excopau]

greenies trying to do good again without thinking, our country as an whole is 1 percent of the pollution, they love to quote per person becasue we are higher, but as an country we are so low, so why be the pioneers of this when china and america keep pumping more and more into the air with no end in sight

[mik]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

There seems to be a LOT of people out there too who actually believe the carbon tax will be applied to ALL businesses... Im staggered at just easy people believe this idea.... Only the big polluters are going to pay this tax and they will obviously pass on rise in costs to their clients....

in an indirect way even those that are not specifically slugged will still pay as we will with the exorbitant energy costs that will be passed on yet again to the cost of living and doing business........ and those companies that use energy intensively for their business that have no way of reducing energy consumption , it`s going to hurt them.

[J.C.]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

There seems to be a LOT of people out there too who actually believe the carbon tax will be applied to ALL businesses... Im staggered at just easy people believe this idea.... Only the big polluters are going to pay this tax and they will obviously pass on rise in costs to their clients....

And who are all their clients?
Let me answer that for you. It's you, me and the rest of the consumers in the "lucky" country.
It will have a knock on effect. Anyone can see that.

The government spin of saying "It a tax on the big polluters....." as you put it, is propraganda (spelling).

Wake up Australia and smell the poo that being shovelled down our throats.

There is a large part of me that believes I'd be kidding myself if I think myself, my family or my neighbour is not going to be affected by this "revenue raising, win the green vote, Crap!We spent to much money on BS and we need to recoop it back before the next election, so who can we screw over next?" style of tax.

The current government should hang it's head in shame for letting us, the Australian people down. I see it's leader as having the shame morals and self control as a teenage girl with no boundaries who has just taken her old mans credit card ............ which has no limit of spending attached.

The worst part about it is, there is noone any better to replace her with.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by foxtrot3

Hi. But if you burn R12 the result is mustard gas (a highly toxic gas used in WW2) Cheers MD

and it has been banned in motoring for quite a while now

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by J.C.

And who are all their clients?
Let me answer that for you. It's you, me and the rest of the consumers in the "lucky" country.
It will have a knock on effect. Anyone can see that.

The government spin of saying "It a tax on the big polluters....." as you put it, is propraganda (spelling).

Wake up Australia and smell the poo that being shovelled down our throats.

There is a large part of me that believes I'd be kidding myself if I think myself, my family or my neighbour is not going to be affected by this "revenue raising, win the green vote, Crap!We spent to much money on BS and we need to recoop it back before the next election, so who can we screw over next?" style of tax.

The current government should hang it's head in shame for letting us, the Australian people down. I see it's leader as having the shame morals and self control as a teenage girl with no boundaries who has just taken her old mans credit card ............ which has no limit of spending attached.

The worst part about it is, there is noone any better to replace her with.

Your missing my point of what I said.

Again... for your benefit.... People out there actually believe that ALL polluters will be paying this tax directly to the government. This is in fact false. Only big industry will pay this tax directly.

For the average small business IT HAS NO TAXATION EFFECT ON THEM AT ALL.....

Prices will go up yes.... but companies out there are already LIEING TO PEOPLE and claiming all sorts of incredible figures and price gouging customers already or plan to gouge prices once the tax is in effect.

As an example the governments failed roof insulation and the money given to schools to build new buildings etc.... yes they were poorly managed, but at the end of the day the tradies and companies rorted the system and overcharged like wounded bulls and built $200000 toilet blocks and half million dollar awnings etc.... then all those "unqualified" tradies who installed cheap and nasty insulation (those which killed a few people because they banged staples through wires in the ceiling and electrified the entire roof because it was foil based), or those caught out using kids and teenagers to get into ceilings etc.....

Aussies tend to think its their god given right to rip off the government left right and center or blame them for astronomical price rises...

Yes we are being bled dry by the powers that be.... but do you honestly believe that all businesses out there (specially large corporations) actually want to do the right thing for the "good of the people" or the good of the shareholder?

The GST was labelled the death of Australia.... with everyone going broke within weeks...

And again, no i dont support the carbon tax, just tired of the rubbish being told by both sides (for and against)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

There seems to be a LOT of people out there too who actually believe the carbon tax will be applied to ALL businesses... Im staggered at just easy people believe this idea.... Only the big polluters are going to pay this tax and they will obviously pass on rise in costs to their clients....

It would effect the cost of everything wouldn't it? Every business has power bills, transport costs (trucking companies would be paying extra correct?) etc.

Just flows on.

[Rockape]

I think Labour will be getting the bullet very soon...

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Rockape

I think Labour will be getting the bullet very soon...

Should have got it a long time ago.

I can't wait to see the record set by the massacre at the polls next election.

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by J.C.

It will have a knock on effect. Anyone can see that.

Originally Posted by Big Damo

It would effect the cost of everything wouldn't it? Every business has power bills, transport costs (trucking companies would be paying extra correct?) etc.

Just flows on.

That's kind of the idea. Just to clarify... The top 500 carbon-emitting companies will begin by paying $23 per tonne of CO2 released into the atmosphere. This cost increases gradually until 2015 when it will shift to a trading scheme in which the market sets the price.

The end result of this is that the amount of carbon pollution involved in producing a product will be factored into the final price. Products that are carbon-intensive become more expensive, which makes it possible for products that are cleaner to compete on price. Smart businesses will find ways to reduce their costs by becoming more efficient (ie. reducing their carbon emissions) and driving innovation. Some businesses will pass the cost on to consumers, but run the risk of becoming uncompetitive. The cleaner their products, the more competitive they will be. The emphasis is on changing the behaviour of polluting companies, not the consumer.

The cost of those goods which are reliant on carbon pollution during production will go up. Most items that will have a cost increase will increase by a relatively small amount for the consumer. Around 50% of the proceeds of the tax will be allocated to compensate for this: 9 out of 10 households will have this extra cost permanently covered via assistance through various measures, such as personal income tax cuts and increases to allowances and pensions. The entirety of the remaining revenue is spent on assisting affected companies (this is the part I don't understand though, doesn't that undermine the whole point of the scheme to an extent?).

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

It would effect the cost of everything wouldn't it? Every business has power bills, transport costs (trucking companies would be paying extra correct?) etc.

Just flows on.

The flow on effect is totally different to the tax.... the tax is ONLY being paid by the big polluters..... MOST of the population ACTUALLY BELIEVE that ALL POLLUTERS are going to pay this tax.... this is false.

"TAX" and "flow on" effect are two different things..

[BHDOGS]

chambo please stop talking sence the good people of this forum dont wanna hear how its going to work and might actually be affective they wanna shout down the government and blame them for all lifes issues and problems the fact electricity and water prices will rise naturally and were actually to cheap to begin with is of little consequence they need someone to blame.

[J.C.]

Things were just fine here a little over two hundred years ago. Ask any aboriginal type person and he'll tell ya.

Simple life. Hungry? Go run down an emu or take down a taipan. Sleepy? Find a cool place in the shade. Need to get your rocks off? Take out your neighbour and do his missus or jump behind the nearest bush and help yourself. Need a dump? Jump behind a bush and take up position (check first to ensure your bro ain't getting his rocks off behind the chosen bush). Ichy butt crack? You scratched it (that hasn't changed).

Yep. All that was needed was food, clothing and shelter. All provided by mother earth herself and a bit of know how and learn from Uncle Nevs mistakes. 40000yrs they survived with no taxes, barefeet, fire (and they didn't have fire starters people), a stick that they threw and it comes back to them (always wondered how they came up with that one. Might have been one of those "failed" moments where someone threw it and didn't think anything of it until he woke up two hours later laying next to the same stick and with a sore head).

What I'm getting at here is look at us. We work our guts out all our life and pay our taxes, retire (if the government will allow us to) only to die a few years later.
Comparing the two senarios above. I know I'd love to be more self sufficent. I have my solar panels and vegie patch, sure. But the place just ain't big enough to run 100 head of cattle and free range chickens. I'm working on it though, if not for me, for my kids.

We have cocked up somewhere along the line and I fear it may be to late to diagnose and repair as that would mean someone would be accountable and we can't have that in this society. Oh on way!

To put it bluntly. We are screwed. It's only a matter of time now as everything the government plays with, fails. Beef, sugar, agriculture. All struggling.
From a lay mans point of view(that's me), only industry that is making money for Oz is the resourse industry at present, and the government wants to fiddle with that too.

Give it time. It'll fall in a heap too. Heaps of people will be out of work as part of the fall out, as the nation cannot sustain this level of pricing.

To have a bbq nowadays just for the family. To throwing four T-bones on the grill is over fifty bucks. And we are concerned about A/C gas pricing. I can live with out an A/C, even if I think it one of mans best inventions ......next to the condom of course.

This sort of crap that is dished out by Canberra is and has changed our culture and way of life now and into the furture.

I hope I'm wrong.

[wrongwaynorris]

The monumentally staggering level of ineptitude and incompotence of this government really beggars belief . Now they have published their list of the top 500 emitters who will be paying the most carbon tax directly includes the Brisbane City Council . The reason why the BCC will be paying is because they run a massive fleet of buses , you know the ones that keep 30 to 50 cars off the road in their place . So they are actually punishing a corporation / company who is actively reducing carbon emmissions . Like 99% of things this totally inept government has introduced no real thought has gone into this at all . This carbon tax is about 2 things and 2 things ONLY , keeping their bedfellows the Greens happy and repaying the 40 Billion dollar surplus that John Howard and Peter Costello handed over to them and was decimated by KRudds handouts .

[BHDOGS]

yes k rudd decimated the surplus not the gfc and the floods cheers for clearing that up what else did labour do cause aids and faked the moon landings

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

The reason why the BCC will be paying is because they run a massive fleet of buses , you know the ones that keep 30 to 50 cars off the road in their place . .

Seems your info is at difference with the various press releases(http://m.news.com.au/QLD/pg/0/fi1379530.htm) which point to their emission problems emanating from methane from landfill.
Petrol,Lpg and Diesel won't be subject to the tax, where are you getting your info

Its only fair that the constituents of Brisbane city should pay since it is their rubbish. A staggering $12 increase per year, per rate payer, the sky may not fall in.

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

The monumentally staggering level of ineptitude and incompotence of this government really beggars belief . Now they have published their list of the top 500 emitters who will be paying the most carbon tax directly includes the Brisbane City Council . The reason why the BCC will be paying is because they run a massive fleet of buses , you know the ones that keep 30 to 50 cars off the road in their place . So they are actually punishing a corporation / company who is actively reducing carbon emmissions . Like 99% of things this totally inept government has introduced no real thought has gone into this at all . This carbon tax is about 2 things and 2 things ONLY , keeping their bedfellows the Greens happy and repaying the 40 Billion dollar surplus that John Howard and Peter Costello handed over to them and was decimated by KRudds handouts .

It's due to Brisbane City Council landfill operations which contribute a net 200,000 tonnes of CO2. BCC have reduced this tally from 500,000 tonnes in 1990 through offsets and reductions. Now there's further incentive to invest in measures that encourage recycling and reuse of materials.

None of the revenue will be directed towards paying off government debt... see my post above.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

yes k rudd decimated the surplus not the gfc and the floods cheers for clearing that up what else did labour do cause aids and faked the moon landings

For your info the GFC had absolutely zero effect on the surplus left to KRudd . It was his decision to just throw money at people with no restrictions on how it was spent . It is NO accident that the AHA reported their 2 biggest months ever immediately following KRudds 2 payments . Those who did not need it simply banked it , numerous people spent it overseas from websites because they are much cheaper than local prices and obviously from the AHA 's figures a lot of people ****ed it up against a wall or pumped it through a pokie . So a small proportion actually got used for the correct reasons . If it was going to be done it should have been retail vouchers ONLY redeemable at Australian businesses .

[Gaz]

Good, finally hydrocarbon refrigerants can take off properly and the bull crap surrounding them can be sifted out.

People are worried about a few hundred grams of gas in an air con system.. I've got 60 Litres of it behind me!

I'd rather a few hundred grams of LPG catch fire in a crash, if it even does and not just leak out (it's not going to 'explode') than breathe in R134a if it leaks.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Seems your info is at difference with the various press releases(http://m.news.com.au/QLD/pg/0/fi1379530.htm) which point to their emission problems emanating from methane from landfill.
Petrol,Lpg and Diesel won't be subject to the tax, where are you getting your info

Its only fair that the constituents of Brisbane city should pay since it is their rubbish. A staggering $12 increase per year, per rate payer, the sky may not fall in.

A tiny proportion of methane is oxidized microbially to CO2 when landfill gas ( Methane ) permeates through a soil cover .

My info came from that other august left wing organisation the ABC .

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

A tiny proportion of methane is oxidized microbially to CO2 when landfill gas ( Methane ) permeates through a soil cover .

My info came from that other august left wing organisation the ABC .

Sorry if I misunderstand you wrongwaynorris - do you mean to say that methane is less harmful than CO2? Its warming potency is around 23 times higher, and is responsible for about 20% of global 'radiative forcing' (the degree of warming experienced by the earth). It has a shorter lifespan as well - just over a decade as opposed to around 200 years for CO2. This high potency and short lifespan mean that targeting methane emissions is a highly effective measure since its impact can be reduced relatively rapidly.

In regards to the Brisbane landfill operators: This from the Courier Mail (01 August 2011):

Climate Change Minister Greg Combet has offered incentives for landfill operators to offset emissions or generate credits they can sell to other polluters by voluntarily cutting emissions from existing waste.
One way to cut costs is to use methane to generate electricity, a system already in use at Brisbane's Rochedale dump.

I've always liked the idea of using methane in this way where possible, it seems like a very neat solution.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

A tiny proportion of methane is oxidized microbially to CO2 when landfill gas ( Methane ) permeates through a soil cover .

Yes that statement is fairly factual, but it would seem you dont really understand the implication of it? It is not supporting your case!

It is saying that very little of the methane generated in landfills is converted into CO2. This is a problem as the methane has a gwp 23 times higher than that of CO2(as outlined above bychamb0).
Perhaps you have interpreted it as landfill emits very little methane, in fact typically landfill emissions are 60% methane, 40% co2 by volume or 35:65 by mass.

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

My info came from that other august left wing organisation the ABC .

Given that you are unable to quote anything supporting your claims regarding buses etc, it would appear that you have simply misunderstood all the info regarding this.

[chevypower]

Just curious in what people think. Do you think it is...

1. Justifying an increase in taxes to solve problems?

2. Justifying problem-solving to increase taxes?

Even if their intentions are good, a government that resorts to raising taxes to solve problems, exposes just how weak that government's policies are.

[wrongwaynorris]

" Sorry if I misunderstand you wrongwaynorris - do you mean to say that methane is less harmful than CO2?"

No I do not but the government only introduced a Carbon tax not a Metahane tax .

" Yes that statement is fairly factual, but it would seem you dont really understand the implication of it? It is not supporting your case! It is saying that very little of the methane generated in landfills is converted into CO2. This is a problem as the methane has a gwp 23 times higher than that of CO2(as outlined above bychamb0).
Perhaps you have interpreted it as landfill emits very little methane, in fact typically landfill emissions are 60% methane, 40% co2 by volume or 35:65 by mass. "


yes I do not but the government only introduced a Carbon tax not a Metahane tax . Or are you suggesting that if a Government imposes a tax on item A they can then apply it to item B , C , D etc .

" Climate Change Minister Greg Combet has offered incentives for landfill operators to offset emissions or generate credits they can sell to other polluters by voluntarily cutting emissions from existing waste.
One way to cut costs is to use methane to generate electricity, a system already in use at Brisbane's Rochedale dump. "
" I've always liked the idea of using methane in this way where possible, it seems like a very neat solution. "

I earn a living selling these very systems

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

yes I do not but the government only introduced a Carbon tax not a Metahane tax . Or are you suggesting that if a Government imposes a tax on item A they can then apply it to item B , C , D etc .

The idea is that we should offer disincentives for putting anything into the atmosphere that enhances the greenhouse effect, the tax looks at all emissions.

Im sure you understand that " Carbon tax" is just a point of convenience because most of the emissions come from the burning of fossilised organic material: coal and oil (which is high in carbon)

In fact methane is 75% carbon compared to CO2 at 27%, so it fits into the "carbon tax"

[J.C.]

Lets settle this.

Hands up all those who think the introduction of a new tax stinks more than methane?

[BA GT-HO]

Didn't realise Labor had a plant on this forum! (Looking at you sudsy)

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by J.C.

Lets settle this.

Hands up all those who think the introduction of a new tax stinks more than methane?

you do realise that methane is odourless? , yeh why not lets ask people that have no idea about the science.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sudszy

you do realise that methane is odourless? , yeh why not lets ask people that have no idea about the science.

you do realise that beaut bottom burps contain methane and they stink. whether or not it is the methane part that stinks is irrelevant. it was a funny post and was somewhat relevant simply because of the play on words