FORD will never outshine Holden-no matter what they do? - Page 5

4Vman · 03-08-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thankfull

I think if you offered a person the choice of owning only 1 of the following 2 cars, they would be forced to give it some thought...

Car number 1. GTHO XY Phase III - Color Vermillion Fire....
Credentials Winner out right Bathurst Winner in Class Bathurst 1971

Car number 2. GTR XUI Torana - Color White with Black paint outs
Credentials 2nd place Outright Bathurst 2nd place in Class Bathurst 1971

Tough choice eh! my money would be on most people taking the XY GTHO as first choice...

In 1971 The top 3 places overall were in Class E and were GTHO's, 6 of the first 7 cars home were GTHO's.. the XU1 finished 4th overall and 1st in Class D....
GTHO3's are bringing $4-700K, XU1's about $75K... perspective is a wonderfull thing isnt it!

LeadFoot81 · 03-08-2009, 08:17 PM

Personally I think Fomoco Oz has always been a quiet achiever (to its own detriment), the only time anyone hears about the company is when the media crow about something negative (recalls/loss of i6 etc. The company just doesnt promote itself with an inyourface 'were the best' fervour like Holden does. This coupled with the fact most people think of Ford as an American company (full stop) really hurts its image here in Oz.

I think over the years the Holden 'legend' has become well and truly intertwined with Aussie popular culture and this aura is the companys gretest asset.

For Ford to earn that sort of respect would require nothing short of a miracle. I think however that Ford Oz are making the right moves to secure a nrw generation of buyers outside the tradional loyalist fan base with a great range of products and this will ensure its survival and growth into the future.

Falc'man · 03-08-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In 1971 The top 3 places overall were in Class E and were GTHO's, 6 of the first 7 cars home were GTHO's.. the XU1 finished 4th overall and 1st in Class D....
GTHO3's are bringing $4-700K, XU1's about $75K... perspective is a wonderfull thing isnt it!

The LJ would be one of the only Holden's I'd be inclined to owning, nothing else has ever appealed to me. In saying that, you shouldn't even be comparing the two, they're on different pages altogether.

4Vman · 03-08-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The LJ would be one of the only Holden's I'd be inclined to owning, nothing else has ever appealed to me. In saying that, you shouldn't even be comparing the two, they're on different pages altogether.

Id rate the HT350 and A9X well ahead of the XU1, all 3 were winners at Bathurst, but the XU1 is the Best 6cyl musclecar from the 70's....

GTP-03 · 03-08-2009, 08:30 PM

One of reasons the GTHO is a legend is because from the phase 2 to the phase 3 the GTHO lapped Mt panorama 7 seconds faster than the year before, a feat which has not been achieved again to this day and which will not be ever achieved again!

Thankfull · 03-08-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In 1971 The top 3 places overall were in Class E and were GTHO's, 6 of the first 7 cars home were GTHO's.. the XU1 finished 4th overall and 1st in Class D....
GTHO3's are bringing $4-700K, XU1's about $75K... perspective is a wonderfull thing isnt it!

My apolagies you are correct my bad.

Thankfull · 03-08-2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Personally I think Fomoco Oz has always been a quiet achiever (to its own detriment), the only time anyone hears about the company is when the media crow about something negative (recalls/loss of i6 etc. The company just doesnt promote itself with an inyourface 'were the best' fervour like Holden does. This coupled with the fact most people think of Ford as an American company (full stop) really hurts its image here in Oz.

I think over the years the Holden 'legend' has become well and truly intertwined with Aussie popular culture and this aura is the companys gretest asset.

For Ford to earn that sort of respect would require nothing short of a miracle. I think however that Ford Oz are making the right moves to secure a nrw generation of buyers outside the tradional loyalist fan base with a great range of products and this will ensure its survival and growth into the future.

Very true.....also do bear in mind, Holden absolutely has to sell good numbers of cars in Australia to survive as a company....Ford does not.

It is really all about, how motivated is Ford about doing somthing... a great example of that was the early 70s where Ford where so motivated about winning on the race track in Australia, that Holden saw what was comming and backed off in V8 form altogether at the race track.

Sadly there was a time when Ford was no longer motivated to even build V8s anymore in Australia....let us hope that never happens again for at least the for seeable future.

A lot of Holden fans forget that the main reason Holden was so successfull on the race track from 1972 onwards, was because Ford was no longer motivated about winning on the race track.

Even then some privateer Fordys still pulled off some spectacular Bathurst Wins, but in reality Ford took the Bat and Ball home in 1972...as in Head Office at Dearborn in the States....

It is not about the competition....when you look back over History, you will find that it is about....how motivated is Ford head office about doing somthing in any given part of the World.

**SSD-85** · 03-08-2009, 09:12 PM

Basically I'm not concerned about Holdens ability to sell a fridge to an eskimo. I am proud to support Ford no matter how many seemingly daft decisions they make. I am proud to own a Ford and be seen in one. I don't need to justify how good a Ford is in the face of overwhelming opposition, I simply have to drive one to know. And if that makes me an ignorant traditionalistic neanderthal or no better than a VN driving, flanny wearing holden supporter then I don't care. I know what I love and I love Fords. Simple.

My 2c

GT69 · 03-08-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty85

Basically I'm not concerned about Holdens ability to sell a fridge to an eskimo. I am proud to support Ford no matter how many seemingly daft decisions they make. I am proud to own a Ford and be seen in one. I don't need to justify how good a Ford is in the face of overwhelming opposition, I simply have to drive one to know. And if that makes me an ignorant traditionalistic neanderthal or no better than a VN driving, flanny wearing holden supporter then I don't care. I know what I love and I love Fords. Simple.

My 2c

Good post and spot on!

Thankfull · 03-08-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty85

Basically I'm not concerned about Holdens ability to sell a fridge to an eskimo. I am proud to support Ford no matter how many seemingly daft decisions they make. I am proud to own a Ford and be seen in one. I don't need to justify how good a Ford is in the face of overwhelming opposition, I simply have to drive one to know. And if that makes me an ignorant traditionalistic neanderthal or no better than a VN driving, flanny wearing holden supporter then I don't care. I know what I love and I love Fords. Simple.

My 2c

Oh it does not hurt to remind them....that even their Hero Gun driver Peter Brock, had to give in and drive a Group A Ford at Bathurst (Siera Cosworth)

There is no way they can get around that ...Peter Brock forced to drive a Ford to be competative at Bathurst.

Game Over !

Ryan · 03-08-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thankfull

Oh it does not hurt to remind them....that even their Hero Gun driver Peter Brock, had to give in and drive a Group A Ford at Bathurst (Siera Cosworth)

There is no way they can get around that ...Peter Brock forced to drive a Ford to be competative at Bathurst.

Game Over !

So it was like Moffat teaming up with Brock for Bathurst in 1986 in a HDT VK? ;)

KW XRT · 03-08-2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP-03

One of reasons the GTHO is a legend is because from the phase 2 to the phase 3 the GTHO lapped Mt panorama 7 seconds faster than the year before, a feat which has not been achieved again to this day and which will not be ever achieved again!

1970 VG Valiant pacer Qual 258.3
1971 R/T E38 Valiant Charger qual 245.7.Thats 12.6 seconds a lap faster

This is why the E38 does not get the recognition it deserves.The 4 speed version {E49 was also 6.6 seconds faster again than the E38 had the E49 debut in 1971 all hell would have broken loose.

Wally · 03-08-2009, 10:50 PM

Didn't Moffat drive a Mazda at one stage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP-03

One of reasons the GTHO is a legend is because from the phase 2 to the phase 3 the GTHO lapped Mt panorama 7 seconds faster than the year before, a feat which has not been achieved again to this day and which will not be ever achieved again!

I don't know if you can put it's popularity down to succinct reasons, it just had a dominating presence and a great driver/ambassador in Moffat. Personally I felt proud, we as Australians, could make the Clevo engine perform better than it's makers in USA. It was nice to know we had the fastest 4 door in the world, silly traction these days, but back then we suffered terribly from lack of self esteem.

Obviously there is some avid fans out there who have paid a lot to get their hands on one, who really knows why? Same silly money has been shelled out for HK327s, once again unfathomable to most of us, but because people have done it doesn't translate into anything other than some people have a lot of money to spend on a penchant.

Wally · 03-08-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KW XRT

1970 VG Valiant pacer Qual 258.3
1971 R/T E38 Valiant Charger qual 245.7.Thats 12.6 seconds a lap faster

This is why the E38 does not get the recognition it deserves.The 4 speed version {E49 was also 6.6 seconds faster again than the E38 had the E49 debut in 1971 all hell would have broken loose.

The poor old Charger was deliberately ignored because it welled up an odd feeling in the males. These days it would be ideal for the metrosexuals amongst us.

POELWYK · 03-08-2009, 11:00 PM

im a gen Y abd i tell ya everyone i ask around my age loves the BA-BF XR6 Turbo's thats where ford DID it right with the BA-BF range Ford needs to work on there marketing better thogh

Thankfull · 04-08-2009, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POELWYK

im a gen Y abd i tell ya everyone i ask around my age loves the BA-BF XR6 Turbo's thats where ford DID it right with the BA-BF range Ford needs to work on there marketing better thogh

Well I must confess that I have been a Ford man since 1971, and the BA I thought was the nicest looking new Falcon since the XB release.

Ironicly enough the XB series was when my Father purchased his first New Ford....and the BA Series was when I purchased my first New Ford.

Strangly enough the first two letters of my Rego on my new BA was XB....!

Outback · 04-08-2009, 07:35 AM

The first Ford v8 was built in 1920 and the first GM v8 was in 1914, so somehow I doubt Ford designed the v8, and I just cant see what all the hipp is about with the Phase 3 it only race at Bathurst once and it lost.

4Vman · 04-08-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KW XRT

1970 VG Valiant pacer Qual 258.3
1971 R/T E38 Valiant Charger qual 245.7.Thats 12.6 seconds a lap faster

This is why the E38 does not get the recognition it deserves.The 4 speed version {E49 was also 6.6 seconds faster again than the E38 had the E49 debut in 1971 all hell would have broken loose.

They get the recognition they deserve based on race results and "wins".... or lack of...

Like all Chrysler stories its all about "what if's" and "maybe's" where is Ford and Holden stories are built around race results....
Equally you could say "What if" the V8 XU1 and Phase 4 made the track too....

ltd · 04-08-2009, 08:25 AM

Actually Outback, a little more info.

The first ever GM V8 was built between 1917-1919 and sold 3000 units. It was a 288 cid with OHV and a total power output of 36hp. Due to its complication and cost it was dropped. They then made the small block in 1955.

Ford on the other hand;
Ford never had a car officially called "V8", but for simplicity many people referred the V8-powered Model 18 and Model 40 from 1932-34 as "Ford V8". It was the world's first mass production V8 car.

V8 engines had been available in expensive luxury cars or sports cars long ago, but until the 1932 Ford V8 no one else had put them on mass production affordable cars. In 1929, Chevrolet introduced a straight-6 engine into its mass production cars, which was clearly superior to the contemporary 4-cylinder Ford Model A no matter in power or smoothness. In response, Henry Ford commissioned the development of a V8 engine to put into his next generation mainstream car. It would be his last great achievement in his career.

To reduce production cost, Ford developed a single cylinder block for the V8, unlike other contemporary V8s which used multiple blocks joined together in human intensive ways. The theory was similar to its mono-block 4-cylinder engine, just in a larger scale and had to overcome more technical difficulties in the casting. This 3.6-liter (221 cubic inches) side-valve 90-degree V8 became the world's earliest mass production V8, with approximately 1 million units built from 1932 to '34. It produced 65 horsepower initially, then increased to 75hp in 1933 and 85hp in 1934.

Originally, Henry Ford wanted to equip all its next generation car with the V8. However, as a safe measure he made two cars side by side – a conventional 4-cylinder model called Model B and a V8 model called Model 18 (i.e. meaning 1st V8). Except the engines, the cars were basically the same. Edsel Ford gave them a very stylish look including a graceful radiator grille.

The V8 was renowned for looks, performance and tunability. After WWII, many used chassis and engines were cheaply available. People modified them with lowered suspensions, aggressive tires, larger engine, upgraded transmission and brakes, sportier bodywork and painted them in fancy colors and graphics. These cars were called "hot rods". Without the 1932 Ford V8, there would have been no hot rods.

You can check it out here.
http://www.autozine.org/Classiccar/html/Ford/V8.html

Wally · 04-08-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback

The first Ford v8 was built in 1920 and the first GM v8 was in 1914, so somehow I doubt Ford designed the v8, and I just cant see what all the hipp is about with the Phase 3 it only race at Bathurst once and it lost.

I wouldn't have thought Ford nor GM were the original designers of the V8, it's more likely it's origins are in Europe. Maybe first mass production by GM and later taken up by Ford?

Didn't the hoey win in '71 and lose in '72, beaten by the all conquering XU-1? Would have been a good race the next year between the XU-2, the P4 and whatever Chrysler had in the pipeline for the E49.

ltd · 04-08-2009, 08:44 AM

Wally, Ford was the first to mass produce a V8, and they revolutionalised the automotive world by being the first to cast a one piece v8 block.

Wally · 04-08-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Wally, Ford was the first to mass produce a V8, and they revolutionalised the automotive world by being the first to cast a one piece v8 block.

I don't doubt you. I was always led to believe it was the Cadilllac, not that it matters all that much.

Wally · 04-08-2009, 09:26 AM

Here you go LTD:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...dillac&f=false

ltd · 04-08-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Here you go LTD:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...dillac&f=false

Mate, two different links to two different companies and both of them claiming to be the first respective brand to mass produce the V8. What a shemozzle.

Wikipedia shed some light though, it seems that the L head you linked to was correct, and it was the first mass produced V8. Maybe Ford was the first mass produced V8 with a one piece block?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine

4Vman · 04-08-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

I wouldn't have thought Ford nor GM were the original designers of the V8, it's more likely it's origins are in Europe. Maybe first mass production by GM and later taken up by Ford?

Didn't the hoey win in '71 and lose in '72, beaten by the all conquering XU-1? Would have been a good race the next year between the XU-2, the P4 and whatever Chrysler had in the pipeline for the E49.

Yes, but don't forget 1972 was improved production rules, no longer showroom.... Weather helped the result too...

The Snout · 04-08-2009, 11:28 AM

Bring back driving up the inside on the grass into Hell Corner.

stevedunstone · 04-08-2009, 12:18 PM

Just get in your Ford - turn the key and drive the sucker!

Why you love them is all about how they drive!

The fact they also look neat is just another bonus - don't lose heart you are driving a winner.

Wally · 04-08-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Mate, two different links to two different companies and both of them claiming to be the first respective brand to mass produce the V8. What a shemozzle.

Wikipedia shed some light though, it seems that the L head you linked to was correct, and it was the first mass produced V8. Maybe Ford was the first mass produced V8 with a one piece block?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine

I know what you mean, but that's the autoblog world:- contradictory everything to suit whatever side of the argument one sits on.

As far as the linder block, well the monobloc had been rolled out for the Oldsmobile in 1929, but it was when Ford instructed River Rouge foundary to produce 3000 flat head blocks a day (about the same as the Old's per annum usage) that mass production really got going. Ford sold 12 million of the buggers between 1932 and 1953. Meanwhile, GM started rolling out the newer style overhead valve engines just after WWII.

The mono casting development was done in secret by Henry Ford and "Cast-Iron Charlie" Sorensen. In March 31, 1932 they rolled out the Model 18. The engine needed a fair few changes early on, including reworked aluminium heads to provide a whopping CR6.3, dual plane manifold and twin Strombergs.

Sparksey · 07-08-2011, 03:09 PM

I have only ever bought Henry's and would rather walk than drive one of those common doors. However I must admit that Ford have made some dumb decisions in the past.

Just a few examples
XA,XB, XC Coupe - great looking race car but with normal width tyres, just plain awful.
AU - Let's not even go there. Was the body shape copied from the VW Beetle?
Even with the current Falcon, why did they put what look like left over Mitsubishi / Commodore door handles on it? What were they thinking when they designed the rear tail light assembly? Surely they were smoking some type of vegetable matter at the time.
Oh yeah, have we ever made a decent head gasket?

There was a time when you could pick a Falcon from a Commodore from 200m away but now you need to see the badge to be sure. Don't believe me? Just look at a V8 stupidcar race and try to tell them apart.

The way to fix it is simple. Firstly, make a car that looks different and is different to the oppositions product, not just a variation on the same theme. Secondly, market it as both different and better. Thirdly market it. Fourthly, market it. etc

Maybe they could stop supporting that dopey bunch of stupid cars and get back to some real racing. That might help.....

**ebxr8240** · 07-08-2011, 03:54 PM

Some thread mining ...