Holden secures $200m subsidy

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It could be anything. As always with these Drive journos its take 1+1 and get 50.

Fixed.

[T-Pak Addict]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I saw a current model Mondeo Titanium today. Looked hot. I liked the size of it too, and I was thinking, if the next gen Falcon was that size, RWD with a choice of EBI4T, 3.5 V6 and 3.5 EB and 5.0 for FPV's, it would surely be a winner. But it would have to be a global vehicle and have the requisite levels of equipment and fit and finish.

Hey wouldnt be the first time they shoved a bigger engine into an overseas car....

Take a pommy car with the biggest power plant in it was a 2.0ltre 4 banger (england) 3.0 V6 (south africa) from memory and shove in a 250/4.1 6 cylinder....

Arh the good old days of the TC Cortina... Drove like a bucket but man it could fry those tyres...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Geelong is currently set up as an I-6 engine production line, what changes would be needed
to adapt it to I-4 Ecoboost or I-4 diesel and could it be done effectively without costing the earth?

An inline engine could be done in theory, how expensive I don't know. Casting in iron wouldn't be too hard, would just need new sand cores and that sort of stuff, as far as i've seen its a fairly simple operation casting.

Alloy block would need to be imported most likely.

Machine lines setup to do an I6 would need to be reconfigured for an I4, but a lot of this stuff is done by a robot, so could in theory be reprogrammed.

Crank grind for example picks up the crankshaft, and moves it around to the various grinding wheels to grind off the flash. The crank balancing process is similar, the robot picks it up, puts it in the jig that spins the crank, the machine checks the balance and determines where weight needs to be taken out, and a robot drills the crank counterweights a certain amount to achieve it. Could be reprogrammed for an I4.

Head castings already come from Mexico and cams are imported too, the assembly line would probably be the main issue. It would basically need to remove/stop from working 2 out of the 6 spindles or whatever required to tighten head bolts etc. Would probably need a lot of machines replaced because the spacings would be different and only needs to do up 2/3's of the required bolts or whatever. But it could be done I think. Those machines aren't cheap though, but not enough to break the bank. In theory there's nothing that could stop it except dollars, and detroits approval.

[Road_Warrior]

You'd need to re-tool the plant surely. And you couldn't just get away with a common old garden variety cast iron engine block in this day and age, it would have to be CGI, which means different casting techniques, moulds and of course new machining equipment capable of machining CGI blocks.

And then there's ally, and I think you've said before Boss that alloy blocks were tried before but the machines on the block line were fouled by the alloy filings/swarf.

[Revolver]

The thing I'm really peeved about, is the government gives money (which of course is from various taxes, so OUR money) to the car manufactures to keep them in business. Then we buy the cars they produce. Effectively we buy them twice....

In some cases 3 or 4 times depending on your vehicle turnover between funding allocations.

So when do I get my new car?

[Nikked]

delete

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

You'd need to re-tool the plant surely. And you couldn't just get away with a common old garden variety cast iron engine block in this day and age, it would have to be CGI, which means different casting techniques, moulds and of course new machining equipment capable of machining CGI blocks.

On a smaller I-4 engine, the weight savings between an alloy block over a cast iron is not that much,
maybe 15 Kg but possibly saving a whole bunch on cost for our regional centres...

And then there's ally, and I think you've said before Boss that alloy blocks were tried before but the machines on the block line were fouled by the alloy filings/swarf.

That's more to do with experience, right tooling and correct set - not impossible
since Ford has huge plants in Europe and USA pushing these babies out

Perhaps the key is looking at well amortized engines that are being superseded and acquiring the
tooling and machines, do some cost effective updates to bring them into line for Aussie use..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

You'd need to re-tool the plant surely. And you couldn't just get away with a common old garden variety cast iron engine block in this day and age, it would have to be CGI, which means different casting techniques, moulds and of course new machining equipment capable of machining CGI blocks.

And then there's ally, and I think you've said before Boss that alloy blocks were tried before but the machines on the block line were fouled by the alloy filings/swarf.

A diesel engine needs a high strength block, so going cast iron is a cheap and effective way of doing it. CGI wouldn't save much weight as the blocks are so small.

You wouldn't go cast iron blocks in a petrol engine, you'd import it just like Holden do with the V6 blocks.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

An inline engine could be done in theory, how expensive I don't know. Casting in iron wouldn't be too hard, would just need new sand cores and that sort of stuff, as far as i've seen its a fairly simple operation casting.

Alloy block would need to be imported most likely.

Machine lines setup to do an I6 would need to be reconfigured for an I4, but a lot of this stuff is done by a robot, so could in theory be reprogrammed.

Crank grind for example picks up the crankshaft, and moves it around to the various grinding wheels to grind off the flash. The crank balancing process is similar, the robot picks it up, puts it in the jig that spins the crank, the machine checks the balance and determines where weight needs to be taken out, and a robot drills the crank counterweights a certain amount to achieve it. Could be reprogrammed for an I4.

Head castings already come from Mexico and cams are imported too, the assembly line would probably be the main issue. It would basically need to remove/stop from working 2 out of the 6 spindles or whatever required to tighten head bolts etc. Would probably need a lot of machines replaced because the spacings would be different and only needs to do up 2/3's of the required bolts or whatever. But it could be done I think. Those machines aren't cheap though, but not enough to break the bank. In theory there's nothing that could stop it except dollars, and detroits approval.

Where did he get his news from?

Anyway.. he's right about it being for the worst. Car guys love I over V.

3:12m and onwards. Old video though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShR30...eature=related

In other news. Reading the utter ***** carsguide today. And the journo's have gone 180 degrees. Being negative about the news at holden. It's got a picture of Julia standing in front of an FJ with teh title "Why is this woman smiling?" Goes on to talk about how ironic it is she standing in front of a Yank car (their words honest) and the next two will be Yank cars also. I was stunned. Hopefully they start attacking Holden/GM and lay off Ford.

I would so love it Ford invested Falcon to become more global. I would die laughing at Holden fans.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Conundrum

The thing I'm really peeved about, is the government gives money (which of course is from various taxes, so OUR money) to the car manufactures to keep them in business. Then we buy the cars they produce. Effectively we buy them twice....

In some cases 3 or 4 times depending on your vehicle turnover between funding allocations.

So when do I get my new car?

And what about the BillionS of dollars these companies invest into this country too? Far greater than any government investment!!! You can't just look at one side & ignore the other side.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

And what about the BillionS of dollars these companies invest into this country too? Far greater than any government investment!!! You can't just look at one side & ignore the other side.

Or you can be really niave, and believe everything you are told. Do you seriously think Holden invested over $450 million of their own money to build the cruze here (to get the $150 million in government money). At 30,000 cruzes a year, the investment costs alone would come to $4000 per cruze over a 5 year production cycle. At that rate Holden would have been throwing good money after bad.

The reason why Holden has agreed (and they have yet to say exactly how it will be spent) to "spend" $1 billion dollars to get the $275 million from the governments, is that spending money doesnt have to equate to anything of value. If they want to make the Malibu for example, you can bet Holden will "spend" $2000 per car to GM as a royalty payment etc. Alot of the government money wont see the light of day in Australia. Even the SA premier is becoming suspicious of how Holden is spending the money by recently stating that they will Hold "Holdens feet to the fire".

And lets not forget the big issue with Holdens future plans. The government has also allocated $35 million to help component makers with exports. They know that if the car companies start making global cars, then the component manufacturers will be decimated. Just like Holden does currently with the cruze (which is over half imported), why buy an australian made component, when you already have it being made overseas for a much less price.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Conundrum

The thing I'm really peeved about, is the government gives money (which of course is from various taxes, so OUR money) to the car manufactures to keep them in business. Then we buy the cars they produce. Effectively we buy them twice....

In some cases 3 or 4 times depending on your vehicle turnover between funding allocations.

So when do I get my new car?

The same time you get a discount of the house you are buying, because the previous owner got the first home buyers grant. Also the same time you get your Toyota Hilux with your blue scope steel roofing, because BHP got a tax write-off on the Hilux they used in the company.

In other words this is not just a car company thing. If you are going to get upset about tax payers subsidising stuff you buy, your going to be awfully upset most days.

[BroadyFord]

Kind of related but I was reading an article in the Fin Review the other day where they talked about the imact of the Holden deal on component makers.

The article said that component makers rekon that Ford will build a car here after 2016 as it won't want to lose sales volume here.

They think the car will obviously be a global platform but that's it.

I would think component makers would have some inside info or at least be in the know somehow.

[Nikked]

Its only 4 years away, im sure all the people that need to know do. My guess is the 2016 falcon is almost past its CAD phase...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Its only 4 years away, im sure all the people that need to know do. My guess is the 2016 falcon is almost past its CAD phase...

I wouldn't go that far, but there's no doubt they would have done a lot of styling proposals to get an idea of what they want it to look like, whatever vehicle is underneath it can have the styling altered to suit.

They definately wouldn't have locked in the hard points of the chassis and bodyshell yet, unless they already know what platform they will use, but I still think that could be another 6-9 months away based on a late 2016 start date, based on a 4 year development cycle.

I'm pretty sure they have already mentioned it that they have done some styling work. Maybe J Mays said they were doing this?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I suit.

They definately wouldn't have locked in the hard points of the chassis and bodyshell yet, unless they already know what platform they will use.

I think it will be dependant on what Ford US is planing with their cars, no doubt that a substancial amount of hardware will be shared.


Its no surprise that nothing has been said about the falcon, when they don't want to potentially reveal what could be happening in america.

[Sprint XR8]

Coalition stalls on cars cash
Katharine Murphy
April 25, 2012

THE Coalition says it is yet to decide whether to support the Gillard government's $215 million lifeline for Holden, despite the continuing shake-out buffeting the local car industry.
Shadow industry spokeswoman Sophie Mirabella said yesterday the Coalition had yet to resolve its stance on Holden, because the government had not provided details about the package unveiled in late March.
Mrs Mirabella said she still had questions about the deal.
''I've said the rules need to be transparent. We need to know what taxpayers are getting, and how the decisions were arrived at,'' she said.
The government in March pledged $215 million to secure Holden's presence in Australia until at least 2022. The Victorian government invested $10 million, and South Australia $50 million.
The deal includes a commitment by Holden to produce two new vehicles in Australia and invest $1 billion.
Mrs Mirabella's comments come as Australia's car industry continues to shed jobs. Financial woes at components company CMI are likely to prompt a stand down of workers at Ford in Victoria.
The Coalition says it will provide assistance to car makers until 2015 at the level promised by the former Howard government - $500 million less than the amount promised by the Gillard government.
Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey has previously queried whether Holden is worthy of additional taxpayers' support, when other sectors are also being buffeted by the high Australian dollar.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...424-1xjby.html

[Nikked]

200m could cover the losses to export the commodore to the US...


Sneaky...